The Scam/Not a Scam debate storyline

[idnewton]

They are nothing more than QoL suggestions. Some are good, others not so good.

 

I really like the flag suggestion and the ability to post price per unit as an option and have the GTN compute total price for me.

 

Do you like any of the suggestions? Do you dislike any of them.

 

This is the conversation we should be having. Instead of participating in the exchange of hyperbole.

 

That is what I meant by voice of reason. The voice of reason discusses the suggestions based on their QoL merit, not why they are being asked for or whether or not they will protect buyers and/or sellers.

 

That argument is silly to engage in.

 

Here are the suggestions I compiled. I like most of them.

 

1) The ability to ignore a character name on the GTN, so the items sold by that character are not shown in searches.

2) The ability to place a red flag on sellers you do not like, green flag on ones you prefer, and a sort function to move red flags to the bottom of a search, green flags to the top. Only you would see the flags you apply.

3) Remove the ability for the system to display fractional currency in the "price per unit" field.

4) Have the formatting right justified instead of left justified.

5) Have the ignore list also apply to the GTN.

6) Change total price to price per unit, or just add a price per unit option for posting items for sale.

7) Default the GTN to sorting by lowest price first, or lowest per unit price.

8) Larger text for the price display.

 

Now that we've reached some sort of understanding, I would like to point out that I never once disagreed with these suggestions. Actually, I never addressed them at all. While you may be a voice of reason, so am I. Unfortunately, as individual human beings, we operate differently. You chose to accept Bioware's word on the issue and offer suggestions on how to improve the GTN. I haven't read through them all individually, but they look pretty good. I, on the other hand, cannot sit idly by while people make ludicrous comments like this:

the GTN Purchase Confirmation can't just be about protecting buyers when they're paying attention, it needs to be about protecting them also when they're NOT paying attention. It needs to be foolproof.

Unfortunately I have a bad habit of addressing comments as thoughtless as that, which prompts me to make statements such as this:

Therefore it stands to reason that if a player buys an item from the GTN and confirms the purchase, the player accepts the consequences of that purchase.

which you consider to be obvious:

Your stating the obvious.

I agree, this is obvious. It's SO obvious, and it sickens me that I actually have to spell this out for some people because they still do not understand concepts as simple as that. Unfortunately those people do exist in this thread, and therefore the truth must be stated. Whether or not they choose to agree is their choice and not mine, but it must be said.

 

That is why I could not address your suggestions, because your suggestions are an extrapolation of the topic of this thread, and assume that the topic has been addressed and closed. Well, officially it has, by Bioware, but I still felt that some people needed some extra explanation before we could start theorizing possible changes to the GTN (and while these wouldn't prevent player stupidity (because let's be real, nothing will) I still think they'll be a great addition to the game).

 

At this point in time, my posts against the armies of blatant stupidity have been made, and now perhaps we can actually move forward and start theorizing QoL changes to the GTN to benefit everyone.

Edited November 11, 2014 by idnewton

[Reno_Tarshil]

Fact is there will always be stupid people. But allowing this GTN "scam" practice to continue just because "it will teach them a lesson" isn't the right way to do it.

 

Many people are defending this "scam" by saying "pay more attention", "it's your own fault". This is pure victim blaming.

 

They need to change the way the prices look on the GTN, and these "stupid people" won't be scammed. It's a simple QOL feature that should be put in.

 

"Well pay more attention". no. "change the way the prices are displayed" is the answer to this problem.

 

No, pay attention. It's that simple.

[thewitchdoctor]

Man, I sure am lucky my computer came with a built -in calculator.

 

Even better, in 3.0.1, Bioware is going to send every subscriber a stuffed hand to hold whilst they shop on the GTN.

 

To keep you safe. From yourself.

 

(Not you, you, of course.)

[idnewton]

Fact is there will always be stupid people. But allowing this GTN "scam" practice to continue just because "it will teach them a lesson" isn't the right way to do it.

 

Many people are defending this "scam" by saying "pay more attention", "it's your own fault". This is pure victim blaming.

 

They need to change the way the prices look on the GTN, and these "stupid people" won't be scammed. It's a simple QOL feature that should be put in.

 

"Well pay more attention". no. "change the way the prices are displayed" is the answer to this problem.

 

This post, while technically favoring the 'victims' of the 'scam', actually does have some worth. While a lot of the whining from the 'victims' is crybaby garbage, I do think this guy has a point. The change doesn't have to be big, it could be so simple. The only necessary change is to add a checkbox to the User Interface preferences window, which serves one function:

If box is checked, round GTN's "per item" prices to the nearest whole number.
If box is not checked, represent GTN's "per item" prices in decimal form.

Edited November 11, 2014 by idnewton

[LyraineAlei]

How much is anyone willing to be BW is not going to read the accumulated 100+ pages on this topic merged into this thread beyond the "We see this is a heated debate. Buyer beware. We can't prove it was a scam or honest overpricing. We'll toss it to the Devs to see if they want/can do anything."?

 

Because I know I jumped from page six (original thread of mine) to 69 (BW post) to the then-last page (90-something). Likely read the missing pages, but they were merged into this.

[Reno_Tarshil]

How much is anyone willing to be BW is not going to read the accumulated 100+ pages on this topic merged into this thread beyond the "We see this is a heated debate. Buyer beware. We can't prove it was a scam or honest overpricing. We'll toss it to the Devs to see if they want/can do anything."?

 

Because I know I jumped from page six (original thread of mine) to 69 (BW post) to the then-last page (90-something). Likely read the missing pages, but they were merged into this.

 

I bet they won't do anything beyond the response they've given.

[LordArtemis]

Now that we've reached some sort of understanding, I would like to point out that I never once disagreed with these suggestions. Actually, I never addressed them at all. While you may be a voice of reason, so am I. Unfortunately, as individual human beings, we operate differently. You chose to accept Bioware's word on the issue and offer suggestions on how to improve the GTN. I haven't read through them all individually, but they look pretty good. I, on the other hand, cannot sit idly by while people make ludicrous comments like this:Unfortunately I have a bad habit of addressing comments as thoughtless as that, which prompts me to make statements such as this:which you consider to be obvious:

I agree, this is obvious. It's SO obvious, and it sickens me that I actually have to spell this out for some people because they still do not understand concepts as simple as that. Unfortunately those people do exist in this thread, and therefore the truth must be stated. Whether or not they choose to agree is their choice and not mine, but it must be said.

 

That is why I could not address your suggestions, because your suggestions are an extrapolation of the topic of this thread, assuming that the topic has been addressed and closed. Well, technically it has, by Bioware, but I still felt that some people needed some extra explanation before we could start theorizing possible changes to the GTN (and while these wouldn't prevent player stupidity (because let's be real, nothing will) I still think they'll be a great addition to the game).

 

At this point in time, my posts against the armies of blatant stupidity have been made, and now perhaps we can actually move forward and start theorizing QoL changes to the GTN to benefit everyone.

 

I get what your saying. But let me explain what I did here.

 

This was my response to the dance, posted a few times as a stand alone comment. That is not to say I didn't respond a few times myself, but I took neither side, as you can by this....

 

Buyer beware. Oldest rule in the book. If you post a sale for too low of a price or buy an item at an inflated price the only person to blame, in the end is you.

 

There are good sellers and bad sellers.

 

Gaming the GTN is not against the rules, it is not "scamming", but it is perhaps dishonorable.

 

Dishonorable practices, no matter how distasteful is common in business. That is just how it is.

 

No change that has EVER been made to the GTN has protected buyers or sellers.

 

None of the suggested changes will protect buyers or sellers. People will still make mistakes.

 

Note that this criticizes both buyers AND sellers, and speaks truths about both of them. To me that is the voice of reason. Then I moved on to the merits of the suggestions made.

 

The argument "I need protection" and "they want protection so changes are bad" will continue forever. This is not the last time this argument will grace the forum I assure you.

 

I made the same comments last time and make the same ones again.

 

Instead, I just look at what is suggested and see if they have merit as QoL changes. I rejected MANY of them that did not, like getting people banned, or banned from the GTN, or banning players that complain about the practice...that sort of ridiculousness that helps no one.

 

I realize I come off as condescending some times, and I admit I have little respect for the back and forth silliness...but If I offended with that I offer my apologies. Both to you and Nova of course.

Edited November 11, 2014 by LordArtemis

[thewitchdoctor]

We can't prove it was a scam or honest overpricing.

 

Well, be honest: how would they know it was a 'scam?'

 

Because the OP thinks its too high a price? Because you do? Because Random CS Employee 3456789 does?

 

We already have complaints that CS isn't paying attention. You want those limited resources spent on policing the GTN? Bioware isn't going to hire people to make sure no one pays 'too much' on the GTN. So, Eric is completely right: there is no way for Bioware to determine if a seller is 'scamming' or just setting a high price.

 

Now, to making a change to the GTN: I'll be real honest. If it is a choice between any other possible QoL fix or new feature or a change to the GTN's UI to further babysit a few players, then, no, I'd rather they do anything else.

 

Because as Reno has so patiently tried to explain: it isn't anything that isn't already fixed by the operator. I.E., the player.

[thewitchdoctor]

I bet they won't do anything beyond the response they've given.

 

I hope they don't. I'd rather them spend the time on doing ANYthing else in game.

[LordArtemis]

I'm putting bets on the idea they will.

 

They did last time.

 

I suppose we will see.

 

If I were to guess, I would guess we will see the option to put in a "per item" price as an option. That was probably the best suggestion.

Edited November 11, 2014 by LordArtemis

[anonnn]

Here's another snippet that will protect GTN buyers a little more:

 

If the purchase price is 1M credits or more, leave the Purchase Confirmation's "OK" button disabled for the first 5 seconds.

.

[Heat-Wave]

Dishonorable practices, no matter how distasteful is common in business. That is just how it is.

 

Ahh, but this is where you might be mistaken...

 

This isn't business, this is a game... that people pay for... that Bioware/EA makes money from...

 

If enough paying customers get upset over this, at some point, your statement becomes invalid. If you were in Bioware's shoes, how many customers would you be prepared to lose before changing that tune?

[LyraineAlei]

Well, be honest: how would they know it was a 'scam?'

 

Because the OP thinks its too high a price? Because you do? Because Random CS Employee 3456789 does?

 

We already have complaints that CS isn't paying attention. You want those limited resources spent on policing the GTN? Bioware isn't going to hire people to make sure no one pays 'too much' on the GTN. So, Eric is completely right: there is no way for Bioware to determine if a seller is 'scamming' or just setting a high price.

 

Now, to making a change to the GTN: I'll be real honest. If it is a choice between any other possible QoL fix or new feature or a change to the GTN's UI to further babysit a few players, then, no, I'd rather they do anything else.

 

Because as Reno has so patiently tried to explain: it isn't anything that isn't already fixed by the operator. I.E., the player.

 

I was paraphrasing the official yellow post in the snippet you quoted from me.

 

Which is why I stand more on the "There is no scam" side of the debate, personally. I do believe that some "big meanie face" is out there overpricing hoping to get some tricked buyers, but I doubt it is as commonplace as reported/claimed.

[idnewton]

I get what your saying. But let me explain what I did here.

 

This was my response to the dance, posted a few times as a stand alone comment. That is not to say I didn't respond a few times myself, but I took neither side, as you can by this....

 

Buyer beware. Oldest rule in the book. If you post a sale for too low of a price or buy an item at an inflated price the only person to blame, in the end is you.

 

There are good sellers and bad sellers.

 

Gaming the GTN is not against the rules, it is not "scamming", but it is perhaps dishonorable.

 

Dishonorable practices, no matter how distasteful is common in business. That is just how it is.

 

No change that has EVER been made to the GTN has protected buyers or sellers.

 

None of the suggested changes will protect buyers or sellers. People will still make mistakes.

 

Note that this criticizes both buyers AND sellers, and speaks truths about both of them. To me that is the voice of reason. Then I moved on to the merits of the suggestions made.

 

The argument "I need protection" and "they want protection so changes are bad" will continue forever. This is not the last time this argument will grace the forum I assure you.

 

I made the same comments last time and make the same ones again.

 

Instead, I just look at what is suggested and see if they have merit as QoL changes. I rejected MANY of them that did not, like getting people banned, or banned from the GTN, or banning players that complain about the practice...that sort of ridiculousness that helps no one.

I agree with all orange points. I do think it's worth mentioning, though, while some seller stupidity occurs sellers generally realize their fault, and accept responsibility. For whatever reason, though, the buyers play victim. As far as seller stupidity goes, I still remember listing six MMGs on GTN for default GTN price (which is around 1k credits per), and this was at a critical time when they were flying off the shelves for 800k a pop. I didn't whine, I didn't cry to Bioware, I didn't play victim, I learned a valuable lesson, picked myself back up, and moved on. Did it suck? Yeah, but I learned something from it. That's what counts.

 

I realize I come off as condescending some times, and I admit I have little respect for the back and forth silliness...but If I offended with that I offer my apologies. Both to you and Nova of course.

I can't speak for Nova, but you have no reason to apologize to me. You spoke out for what you thought was right, and I did the same. It just so happened there was a funny twist ending in which we were both right, and were somehow able to 'fix' this thread, in a sense. I'm just wondering how either of us got the idea that we disagreed, since reading back through the posts I can see so many similarities. But honestly, it's probably not worth reading too much into. I'm just glad we came to an understanding, because now we might be able to do something productive. And if you're like me, that's really what you came here to do. Edited November 11, 2014 by idnewton

[Heat-Wave]

I was paraphrasing the official yellow post in the snippet you quoted from me.

 

Which is why I stand more on the "There is no scam" side of the debate, personally. I do believe that some "big meanie face" is out there overpricing hoping to get some tricked buyers, but I doubt it is as commonplace as reported/claimed.

 

It doesn't really matter if it is a "scam" or not. It doesn't matter if it is currently against the TOS or not.

 

The whole point of these endless threads is that it needs to be.

 

The past is the past, going forward, this needs to be forbidden behavior. This is not EVE Online, this is supposed to be a fun game for casual players who like Star Wars.

 

I've said it before, I'll say it again... this isn't going away...

[idnewton]

It doesn't really matter if it is a "scam" or not. It doesn't matter if it is currently against the TOS or not.

 

The whole point of these endless threads is that it needs to be.

 

The past is the past, going forward, this needs to be forbidden behavior. This is not EVE Online, this is supposed to be a fun game for casual players who like Star Wars.

 

I've said it before, I'll say it again... this isn't going away...

I do not agree with your plan of action. I do agree with your point, though. This act of listing items on the GTN is lowly and dishonorable, as Artemis said as well. Unfortunately, it does not translate into a plan of action. As I said, I agree with the point behind your plan of action, but the fact of the matter is that Bioware as a company realistically cannot enforce this rule. That is why it is not a rule. No one said it better than Bioware itself:

For us, it would be impossible to tell if a user was posting an item at a higher value to try to "scam" another user, or simply because that is what they want to sell it for.

Edited November 11, 2014 by idnewton

[EvenHardNiner]

No, pay attention. It's that simple.

 

That's one factor. They also need to change the way the prices are displayed, which means this "scam" Is less likely to happen, because these sellers will stop trying to trick people.

 

What you're doing is victim blaming, because you have no argument. Keep trying.

Edited November 11, 2014 by EvenHardNiner

[idnewton]

That's one factor. They also need to change the way the prices are displayed, which means this "scam" Is less likely to happen.

Sorta like this?

add a checkbox to the User Interface preferences window, which serves one function:

If box is checked, round GTN's "per item" prices to the nearest whole number.
If box is not checked, represent GTN's "per item" prices in decimal form.

Edited November 11, 2014 by idnewton

[EvenHardNiner]

Sorta like this?

 

Exactly. The decimal form is what is confusing the people.

[Reno_Tarshil]

That's one factor. They also need to change the way the prices are displayed, which means this "scam" Is less likely to happen, because these sellers will stop trying to trick people.

 

What you're doing is victim blaming, because you have no argument. Keep trying.

 

Are you accusing Eric of victim blaming? Cause his post just re-iterated everything I told you this morning.

[thewitchdoctor]

This is not EVE Online, this is supposed to be a fun game for casual players who like Star Wars.

 

Good thing we got that cleared up.

[EvenHardNiner]

Are you accusing Eric of victim blaming? Cause his post just re-iterated everything I told you this morning.

 

No, I'm saying that you're victim blaming.

 

You still seem to be a bit bummed after I proved you wrong yesterday, I don't see why you're still continuing this debate (which you already lost) with me.

Edited November 11, 2014 by EvenHardNiner

[thewitchdoctor]

No, I'm saying that you're victim blaming.

 

You still seem to be a bit bummed after I proved you wrong yesterday, I don't see why you're still continuing this debate (which you already lost) with me.

 

You keep saying this ...

 

... but it doesn't get any truthier.

[EvenHardNiner]

You keep saying this ...

 

... but it doesn't get any truthier.

 

Keep saying that to yourself.

[Reno_Tarshil]

No, I'm saying that you're victim blaming.

 

You still seem to be a bit bummed after I proved you wrong yesterday, I don't see why you're still continuing this debate (which you already lost) with me.

 

You keep living in denial after a majority of other users proved you wrong including myself. Just let it go already.