When did this begin ?

[AlrikFassbauer]

[Minor Rant]

 

Hello, everyone,

 

a few days ago I was told that the current consensus is to roll need on *everything* except equipment that is not needed (like Cunning items for Troopers).

 

Like decorations.

 

I just don't get it : Need on purely luxury items ?

 

In RL I don't say that I "need" an golden necklace, too.

To me, it's pure luxury. And Luxury can imho NEVER been "needed", because of what the term "Luxury" implies.

 

And I don't "need" decorations - I just want them. There's quite a borad line between something I need - like water, food, clothes, a ceiling over my head - and those things I greed for - like Tiffany Lamps ( decoration ! ) or jewellery, for example.

 

To me, this is nothing but a kneefall towards those trolls whose RL greed dictated them to exclusively use that looting option that gave them an huge advatage over everyone else : The use of need.

 

Now, with the "general consensus" of EVERYONE rolling "need", the players did in fact nothing but go down to the level of those who used need anyway - because of the huge advantage of the need option compared to the greed option.

 

There's a saying :

"Don't argue with idiots. They'll drag you down to their level then beat you with experience."

 

This is exactly what has happened with their use of need instead of the more fair use of greed, because both RL ego and RL greed dictate to ALWAYS use the option which gives the maximum of profits.

 

 

What I wonder right now is : When did this shift towardws "need/b] on everything[" begin ? When was is commonly accepted that it isn't bad to need on EVERYTHING (except gear) ?

 

And a second point I wonder about :

 

Wouldn't this render the in-game greed option completely useless ? I wonder because to me the ONLY possible logical projection of this rule into the future means that at one point that people will need on EVERYTHING - and this time INCLUDING gear !

 

Because people are driven by greed. That's a fact.

Those who aren't are laughed at. Hard.

 

Alrik

[Adrooh]

The "need or greed" discussion is as old as the system, but it's not only a problem of greedy people, but also a question of server culture: On my WoW server people have been using "greed" for rare crafting materials for years, and people using "need" were the absolute exception. But on other servers people have been using "need" for years. This became apparent when the cross-realm group finder was introduced.

 

An easy solution for this is to wait what other people roll. Normally two or three people will roll at once, so I just adapt to their habits. If everybody rolls "greed" (what seems natural for me) I do the same. But if someone does a need roll, I do the same.

[Kheld]

Always needers are scummy loot whores. End of story.

 

Now if I want something I roll need, elsewise its Greed or Pass.

 

For Decorations If I don't have it ill roll Need, if I do then its a Greed or (in Guild groups) Pass.

 

I have morals & a code I try & stick to, unlike many other MMO players. Occasionally I've made a mistake (we all misclick sometimes when were tired), but I always point it out first if I notice.

 

I wish others were more like me tbh. Time to go polish the Halo.

[ghoul_drool]

We can basically do away with the whole need/greed system anyway, and simply implement roll/pass. Would save a ton of bickering.

[Khaleijo]

Galactic strongholds are new and almost everyone with an appartment does want to decorate it, so there are many players running FPs for specific decorations only. They want them because they have a certain plan of decorating in their mind, so they roll need until they have what they "need" for their stronghold.

Most people will stop rolling need and use the greed button again as soon as they have for example all the three or four koltotanks for their own medical bay.

 

Me for myself always met players who rolled with the "rule", that luxury items are need for everyone who wants them, because everyone can use them. That is how i learned rolling for luxury items from the beginning. Before GSH you could consider mounts as luxury items for example, consensus on my server was to roll need on them as long you didn't have it already.

So this is hardly something new.

[djdee]

Two issues:

 

First of all you are attaching a moral system to an argument over semantics (the choices might as well be called "do want", "don't care").

Secondly, moral obligations will put you at a disadvantage as soon as there is one guy who doesn't care about the proposed moral system at all.

 

Edit: oh and then there is also the issue of your Stronghold score being a multiplier for conquests. One could argue "I need that for my stronghold to up my score to do better in conquests (and I really don't want to put 20 male dancers in my stronghold or plaster everything with basic chairs I want it to look nice please)"

Edited September 6, 2014 by djdee

[AelixVII]

Uh, it's always been like this, since I started playing when the game came out.

 

Everyone I've played with across 4 servers over the years always, as a rule, needs on the extra items like crafting mats, crystals and now stronghold items. It's the same as everyone greeding except it's more of a guarantee against people needing when everyone else is greeding. The only exception is when guilds specify their own rules against this. For pugs, you always need on extras. It works for everyone this way.

 

I know it doesn't fit the definition of actually needing something but since when do you 'need' virtual gear?

Edited September 6, 2014 by AelixVII

[Grayseven]

If I don't have it, and I want it, I will roll need on it.

 

I don't care if it is a "luxury" item or a piece of gear that has better stats.

 

That is the entire reason that need vs greed exists.

[Jamus_Divinus]

Always needers are scummy loot whores. End of story.

 

Now if I want something I roll need, elsewise its Greed or Pass.

 

For Decorations If I don't have it ill roll Need, if I do then its a Greed or (in Guild groups) Pass.

 

I have morals & a code I try & stick to, unlike many other MMO players. Occasionally I've made a mistake (we all misclick sometimes when were tired), but I always point it out first if I notice.

 

I wish others were more like me tbh. Time to go polish the Halo.

 

Same here.

 

I guess we were raised differently

 

If in doubt, blame the parents!!!

Edited September 6, 2014 by Jamus_Divinus

[TheNahash]

a. If you don't consider luxury items important, don't need. On second thought, don't even greed. They're useless anyway, right? Just pass.

 

b. If everyone used greed instead of need, how would that be any different than everyone using need?

[BuriDogshin]

No one "needs" a luxury item any more than anyone else does. So if everyone chooses need for it, it's fair to everyone.

[branmakmuffin]

Like decorations.

 

I just don't get it : Need on purely luxury items ?

 

In RL I don't say that I "need" an golden necklace, too.

To me, it's pure luxury. And Luxury can imho NEVER been "needed", because of what the term "Luxury" implies.

 

And I don't "need" decorations - I just want them. There's quite a borad line between something I need - like water, food, clothes, a ceiling over my head - and those things I greed for - like Tiffany Lamps ( decoration ! ) or jewellery, for example.

This is a computer game, no one needs anything in it. Now within the context of the game, my Juggernaut tank "needs" a pet from a boss just as much as he "needs" a Strength based tank item. If you don't roll need on speeders the character does not already have, pets and decorations, that's your choice, but it is not the norm in my experience.

[Jerba]

I've been playing this game since release and hit need for everything except for:

• gear I don't need
  
• pets and mounts I already have
  
• reputation trophies where I am at max reputation
  
• decorations where I am at 50/50
  
• materials that are no longer useful (e.g. level 50 mats prior to 2.9)
  

 

In general, there's nothing wrong with hitting need for vanity items, it's your own fault to hit greed and not get the item. I've never encountered a player on my server who'd not hit need on something he'd not yet have.

 

The reason for that is because under your system, when everyone already has the item and rolls pass, no one gets the item. If everyone rolled greed, a random person could still sell it for credits to a vendor.

 

Considering that 2.8 and 2.9 added a major credit sink, it is understandable that player are now more hostile for credit opportunities than before. Thankfully, people who press need on everything, including useless gear, are in the minority, so you can always kick them from flashpoints and replace them by someone who will press greed.

Edited September 6, 2014 by Jerba

[Grayseven]

No one "needs" a luxury item any more than anyone else does. So if everyone chooses need for it, it's fair to everyone.

 

Untrue. If someone already has one, he doesn't need another.

[OddballEasyEight]

Well, to be honest, you don't "need" gear designed for your class either.

 

You could easily run the FP/OP again and again until you get it by pressing greed.

 

 

But honestly, "need" is for anything that you actually want, "greed" is for anything that you don't care that much about.

Only time it's considered bad sport to need on something is when it's designed for another class than yours, because then someone else could make better use of it than you.

But for "luxury items" such as decorations, everyone can make equal use of them and thus they are needed on if you want them.

[OddballEasyEight]

Untrue. If someone already has one, he doesn't need another.

 

Untrue, just because I have one emperors statue doesn't mean I don't need another.

I might want a pair outside my bedroom, and in that case, one is simply not enough.

[Jerba]

Also, I think you are way too hung up about the words "need" and "greed". There have been discussions in the past on how "need" and "greed" are poorly worded. For example, people who are new to the game don't want to "greed" because that is a dark-side thing, and will rather hit "need", since that is the only other option (the X button to pass is not so easily visble as an option). At the same time, we were not able to come up with alternate names that would better describe the two options.

Therefore, don't interpret "need" and "greed" literally. They are just labels for the two buttons.

Edited September 6, 2014 by Jerba

[TheNahash]

For example, people who are new to the game don't want to "greed" because that is a dark-side thing, and will rather hit "need", since that is the only other option (the X button to pass is not so easily visble).

 

I'm sorry and don't take this personally but this is literally the worst excuse I've ever heard for needing on something. And I'm including that time someone said his cat accidentally hit the mouse button.

 

You'd have to be extremely naive to truly believe that people hit "need" because that's the less evil thing to do.

Edited September 6, 2014 by TheNahash

[DarthDymond]

No one "needs" a luxury item any more than anyone else does. So if everyone chooses need for it, it's fair to everyone.

^This. OP's bringing in a lot of RL values/morals to a game system because of the RL meaning of some of the terms used in that game system.

 

In the context of the Need/Greed/Pass system, all that "Need" means is "I have the highest claim to this item" as opposed to Greed's "My claim to this item is potentially less than that claim that someone else may have" and Pass's "I have no claim to this item/I choose to give up any claim to this item".

 

Whether that item is analogous to food/water/shelter or to a Prada bag is not relevant.

 

Since everyone has an equal claim* to a decoration, a mount, a pet, and a high end crafting material, everyone has the highest claim to those items, and everyone rolls "Need" on them. Greed only comes into play when someone else may have a higher claim, e.g. I roll "Greed" on a tanking piece if I'm playing DPS in a run since it is possible that the current active tank may have a higher claim to it.

 

If someone already has a decoration unlocked, they can certainly make the personal choice to roll Greed, allowing those who do not have it yet to unlock it - but decorations aren't like mounts/pets where you either have them or you don't. The only time I would potentially say someone "should" roll Greed is if they've got the full 50 possible unlocks already, or at least have enough that they know for sure they don't want to place any more of them in their SH.

 

*Your raid group/guild/etc. may, of course, have certain "house rules" that affect these priorities, which would change things.

Edited September 6, 2014 by DarthDymond

[DawnAskham]

[Minor Rant]

 

Hello, everyone,

 

a few days ago I was told that the current consensus is to roll need on *everything* except equipment that is not needed (like Cunning items for Troopers).

 

Like decorations.

 

I just don't get it : Need on purely luxury items ?

 

In RL I don't say that I "need" an golden necklace, too.

To me, it's pure luxury. And Luxury can imho NEVER been "needed", because of what the term "Luxury" implies.

 

And I don't "need" decorations - I just want them. There's quite a borad line between something I need - like water, food, clothes, a ceiling over my head - and those things I greed for - like Tiffany Lamps ( decoration ! ) or jewellery, for example.

 

To me, this is nothing but a kneefall towards those trolls whose RL greed dictated them to exclusively use that looting option that gave them an huge advatage over everyone else : The use of need.

 

Now, with the "general consensus" of EVERYONE rolling "need", the players did in fact nothing but go down to the level of those who used need anyway - because of the huge advantage of the need option compared to the greed option.

 

There's a saying :

"Don't argue with idiots. They'll drag you down to their level then beat you with experience."

 

This is exactly what has happened with their use of need instead of the more fair use of greed, because both RL ego and RL greed dictate to ALWAYS use the option which gives the maximum of profits.

 

 

What I wonder right now is : When did this shift towardws "need/b] on everything[" begin ? When was is commonly accepted that it isn't bad to need on EVERYTHING (except gear) ?

 

And a second point I wonder about :

 

Wouldn't this render the in-game greed option completely useless ? I wonder because to me the ONLY possible logical projection of this rule into the future means that at one point that people will need on EVERYTHING - and this time INCLUDING gear !

 

Because people are driven by greed. That's a fact.

Those who aren't are laughed at. Hard.

 

Alrik

 

Stop for two seconds and realize why this is the way it is.

 

It is because the system is too stupid to categorize things people don't 'need' as such, and provide a single roll / pass option for all.

 

Because of that, all it takes is one greedy SOB in a group to wait till everyone rolls greed to then roll need and take the item.

 

So players have figured the best and only way to fight that behavior is to just roll need on anything that is non-gear that you might want.

 

You can still pass if you don't want the item, and you can still trade to others if you so desire.

 

But don't expect players to all stick with some sort of honor system when there are a good number of players who would take advantage of such as system.

 

Basically, you should be ranting at Bioware for not implementing a better loot system where the only time a Need option exists is for gear you actually need for your player class, while everything else only has a Greed option.

Edited September 6, 2014 by DawnAskham

[Jerba]

I'm sorry and don't take this personally but this is literally the worst excuse I've ever heard for needing on something. And I'm including that time someone said his cat accidentally hit the mouse button.

 

You'd have to be extremely naive to truly believe that people hit "need" because that's the less evil thing to do.

Well, believe me that I was doing this for a few months when I started playing the game. SWTOR was my first MMO, so I didn't know anything about loot rules before, and there was no in-game documentation on what "need" and "greed" actually do. To this date, the tooltip only says "need" and "greed", but does not give an explanation about it.

 

Only when other players told me that "need" overrides a "greed" and that I should always hit greed did I know about it.

Edited September 6, 2014 by Jerba

[TheNahash]

Well, believe me that I was doing this for a few months when I started playing the game. SWTOR was my first MMO, so I didn't know anything about loot rules before, and there was no in-game documentation on what "need" and "greed" actually do. To this date, the tooltip only says "need" and "greed", but does not give an explanation about it.

 

Only when other players told me that "need" overrides a "greed" and that I should always hit greed did I know about it.

 

That could be the case for you but I assure you, you are most likely the only one who's ever hit need because of that.

By accident? Could be. Because someone misread what class the loot was for? Maybe. But choosing need because it seems like the lesser of two evils definitely doesn't enter the Top 500 of reasons why people hit need.

[Grayseven]

Untrue, just because I have one emperors statue doesn't mean I don't need another.

I might want a pair outside my bedroom, and in that case, one is simply not enough.

 

In the context people are using here, if you have one and roll need on another you are being a greedy SOB instead of "playing nice".

 

While I agree two might be nice, rolling greed if you already have one and others do not is nicer.

 

Of course, that only counts when you are grouped with friends. In a PUG you'd better roll need on anything you want because some d-bag is going to anyway whether they actually need it or not.

[Slightrider]

the "greed" option is pointless. "need" or "pass" is all that is required

[SebastiaanZ]

I need on every gear token and on every decoration and crafting mat in runs that are not my own guild runs or a run with friends where other loot rules have been agreed upon.

 

Why do I do that?

 

Because I know others do to, despite them claiming they don't. At first I was playing nice and greeded if I didn't or couldn't use it, but I threw that out of the window when others showed they didn't care about loot etiquette or rules.