Conquest and Screwing PVEr's

[Khevar]

I am more interested in finding the easiest way to nab the rewards for the personal conquests in the limited time I have to play with my cache of low-mid level toons. Right now, after the patch, PvP is the way to go.

Ah, I understand what you're saying.

 

Yes, for personal conquest points, on low-mid level toons, PvP is practically the only thing you can do to make 35k points outside of crafting war supplies.

Edited August 30, 2014 by Khevar

[nkarabats]

there were guilds that did a mass recruitment just for conquest. These were guilds that required parse. Then those guilds would be sitting at 6m points in conquest. At least now other guilds will have a chance to get on the boards with out having to recruit x members.

[Transairion]

9 Balmorra Heroics x 500 x3 invasion bonus = 13,500 points

2 Ilum Heroics x 500 = 1,000 points

1 level 55 FP group finder daily x 1000 x2 invasion bonus = 2,000 points

1 level 50 FP group finder daily x 1000 x2 invasion bonus = 2,000 points

1 tactical FP group finder daily x 1000 x2 invasion bonus = 2,000 points

 

13,500 + 1,000 + 2,000 + 2,000 + 2,000 = 20,500 points per day.

 

I'm not even including the locked to legacy points.

 

You're missing a very important point. Any imbalance between PvP and PvE only matters if they are conquering the same planet.

 

I have no problem pushing for balance. I have no problem fixing a disparity between PvP and PvE.

 

What I do have a problem with, is your absurd and ridiculous hyperbole as you joined this thread:

 

This is untrue, isn't the real problem, and does absolutely nothing to help fix any balancing issues in Conquests.

 

By the second point you're already false as Ilum ONLY HAS ONE HEROIC buddy, one per faction.

 

 

Hoth only has a x2 PvP bonus this week, that's still 1000 points for merely showing up. 20 PvP games = 500 less than your "outrageous" PvE number.

 

Last week Alderaan had x3 PvP, that's 1500 points just for showing up to one game. Which, by the way, was the same amount the Alderaan Heroic's gave.

 

But guess what after doing every Alderaan Heroic you can't do them again, but you can still PvP.

 

 

Don't see how the solution to fix an exploit is to shoot PvE in the kneecaps and let those who can grind PvP do it as much as they want, if I wanna grind PvE I should be within my rights to.

 

If you don't have enough time to exhaust all the PvE objectives to be forced to move on that's not our fault.

Edited August 30, 2014 by Transairion

[LordArtemis]

Doesn't anyone here feel that the conquest system was SUPPOSED to favor PVP over PVE?

[Transairion]

Doesn't anyone here feel that the conquest system was SUPPOSED to favor PVP over PVE?

 

 

Why should it?

 

 

You can do PvE, you can do PvP, you can do GSF. Before the patch, every one was competitive though this week an exploit was found and needed to be fixed.

 

The solution used was just to make PvE not repeatable while the other two are, so, well... no more trio now it's just the PvP duo. You're not going to top the scoreboard doing Dailies.

Edited August 30, 2014 by Transairion

[LordArtemis]

Why should it?

 

 

You can do PvE, you can do PvP, you can do GSF. Before the patch, every one was competitive though this week an exploit was found and needed to be fixed.

 

The solution used was just to make PvE not repeatable while the other two are, so, well... no more trio now it's just the PvP duo. You're not going to top the scoreboard doing Dailies.

 

I'm not taking a stance on the fairness or unfairness of the prior mechanic or it's current iteration. That would not be fair, as I have little interest in the conquest system as a whole and find it poorly designed overall. I did not consider it's prior state an exploit, nor do I consider it's current state an abomination.

 

I would be fine if it returned to it's prior state.

 

That said, I was speaking to the original design intent of the system. I may be mistaken, but I think I remember a few devs pointing out that this is part of the overall war, and it is meant for PVP with the ability for PVE to contribute. Now, this matches most other games that have some sort of "world at war" system in place.

 

Though PVP players contribute the bulk of the war effort, PVE can contribute.

 

So that is what I meant. If we consider the original design intent, perhaps they never intended for PVE players to be equal to PVP players in this way.

 

Just something to think about.

[Ihlrath]

Why should it favor PVP? They are BY FAR the smaller denomination of people playing this game. There are far, far, far more casual PVErs than PVPers. So why should a system favor the smaller group? It makes no sense. I understand the logic people are putting out that this makes sense for war blah blah but this is a game that people pay to play. The vast majority of those people do not PVP on a hardcore basis. So aiming it at that small chunk of people is just bad business.

[LordArtemis]

Why should it favor PVP? They are BY FAR the smaller denomination of people playing this game. There are far, far, far more casual PVErs than PVPers. So why should a system favor the smaller group? It makes no sense. I understand the logic people are putting out that this makes sense for war blah blah but this is a game that people pay to play. The vast majority of those people do not PVP on a hardcore basis. So aiming it at that small chunk of people is just bad business.

 

IF that is who it is aimed at...IF....I would not necessarily agree that it is bad business. Personally I think that most casual players couldn't care less about the conquest system, myself included.

 

It is a hardcore feature by nature. Therefore, IMO, it already appeals to a small minority of the playerbase as designed. You can call that bad business if you wish, but I believe the system it is attached to....Strongholds....has enough to interest casual players.

 

So it's likely it was designed to give something to everyone. Just my view.

[Khevar]

By the second point you're already false as Ilum ONLY HAS ONE HEROIC buddy, one per faction.

You are correct. I was wrong about the Ilum heroics. Luckily, the rest of my math was spot on, making for a total of 19,500 points instead of 20,500 points.

Hoth only has a x2 PvP bonus this week, that's still 1000 points for merely showing up. 20 PvP games = 500 less than your "outrageous" PvE number.

My math was based on a guild invading Balmorra. Your math is based on a guild invading Hoth. They aren't going to be on the same leaderboard, are they?

 

So. The only way a PvE'er was "screwed" by people doing PvP, is if they were competing on the SAME PLANET. Why would a PvE guild invade Hoth? That's the best planet for PvP, so it seems a bit counterproductive. On the flipside, if a PvP guild were to invade Balmorra, they're going to have hard time keeping up with the easy PvE conquest points.

 

Savvy?

Don't see how the solution to fix an exploit is to shoot PvE in the kneecaps and let those who can grind PvP do it as much as they want, if I wanna grind PvE I should be within my rights to.

It takes about 3 hours to do all of the daily repeatable PvE quests available to you in this week's Conquest event.

 

If you need more points, you have the option of switching to an alt and doing them all again.

 

Note that I'm not saying that the 2.9c patch was a good idea or a bad idea. I'm merely saying that it's not this vast problem some people are making it out to be.

Edited August 30, 2014 by Khevar

[Transairion]

My math was based on a guild invading Balmorra. Your math is based on a guild invading Hoth. They aren't going to be on the same leaderboard, are they?

 

So. The only way a PvE'er was "screwed" by people doing PvP, is if they were competing on the SAME PLANET. Why would a PvE guild invade Hoth? That's the best planet for PvP, so it seems a bit counterproductive. On the flipside, if a PvP guild were to invade Balmorra, they're going to have hard time keeping up with the easy PvE conquest points.

 

Savvy?

 

 

Obligatory "where you there last week when Alderaan had a 3x PvP Bonus and a 3x PvE bonus"?

 

In fact most planets overlap, there being a single PVP planet and a single PvE planet isn't exactly happening except in specific circumstances. In those circumstances, said planets are the LEAST contested by a wide margin.

 

 

It takes about 3 hours to do all of the daily repeatable PvE quests available to you in this week's Conquest event.

 

If you need more points, you have the option of switching to an alt and doing them all again.

 

Note that I'm not saying that the 2.9c patch was a good idea or a bad idea. I'm merely saying that it's not this vast problem some people are making it out to be.

 

 

It takes you 3 hours to do like two groupfinders and lvl 30-40 Heroics? Cause that's the only repeatable content there is. Do note you're not even going to be able to do the one-off Black Talon and Essessles on the same character because... do I even need to explain? That's 2/4 conquest objectives right there.

 

 

No you don't have the option of switching to an alt, your alts have their own Conquest score and who says they're all in the same guild?

 

 

Why should YOU dictate how I, or anyone plays just because you don't play enough for it to matter either way?

 

If you can't see why PvE "getting the same points" as PvP, but PvP being repeatable ad infinitum and PvE not is a bad thing then I can't do anything about it, you can't be helped.

Edited August 30, 2014 by Transairion

[BaronV]

I did not say that.

 

What I said is that if people like me, who are expected to PvP every so often to achieve or obtain something they desire, I fail to see why other people - namely in a Guild - should not, especially when their "sacrifice"(?) is for the whole, in this case their Guild.

 

Again, no one is special.

 

no you are basically saying "I like to pvp so its fine, if you dont like that its unfair towards people who dont like to pvp well then too bad - get lost!"

 

No one cares about you needing to pvp to get your little decorations. This is about guild conquests and the restrictions placed on pve activities, when there are no restrictions placed on pvp activities. It is about fairness and not forcing people to do things they dont want to do in order to compete on a level playing ground. You can pvp as much as you want and earn as many points in the day as possible but im restricted to one flashpoint a day. If i want more points i have to force myself to pvp even though i dont want to.

[BaronV]

Simple log in another character, next day start from the beginning. 3/4 alts and you are done. Doing H is really more better than run PvP.

 

I really can't see where the problem is.

 

The problem is that i can only do 1 a day and i need alts on top of that. PvP can be done continuously. Why do people not get this?

[BaronV]

there were guilds that did a mass recruitment just for conquest. These were guilds that required parse. Then those guilds would be sitting at 6m points in conquest. At least now other guilds will have a chance to get on the boards with out having to recruit x members.

 

do you even realise how silly you sound contradicting yourself? The conquest system is purely a mindless grind of numbers where large guilds will ALWAYS ROFLstomp the smaller ones with the sheer weight of their numbers. it has NOTHING to do with quality - only quantity.

 

Limiting pve to once a day does nothing to mitigate this. In fact it makes it worse. If a guild has 20 active people and another guild has 100 active people, the 100 people who do the flashpoints and heroics will still gain far more points than the 20 people doing the exact same number of flashpoints.

 

In fact it is worse, because maybe 80 out of 100 people might not be interested in doing more than one flashpoint, and so they will only do it one; but the smaller 20 person guild might be willing to make up for their numbers by running more flashpoints. Now they cant even do that!

[Grayseven]

do you even realise how silly you sound contradicting yourself? The conquest system is purely a mindless grind of numbers where large guilds will ALWAYS ROFLstomp the smaller ones with the sheer weight of their numbers. it has NOTHING to do with quality - only quantity.

 

Limiting pve to once a day does nothing to mitigate this. In fact it makes it worse. If a guild has 20 active people and another guild has 100 active people, the 100 people who do the flashpoints and heroics will still gain far more points than the 20 people doing the exact same number of flashpoints.

 

In fact it is worse, because maybe 80 out of 100 people might not be interested in doing more than one flashpoint, and so they will only do it one; but the smaller 20 person guild might be willing to make up for their numbers by running more flashpoints. Now they cant even do that!

 

Under the old system, the guild with 20 people could top the boards if they exploited and the 100 man guild didn't. That dog won't hunt.

 

Complaining about this isn't going to work. While the GSF matches are repeatable, their point amount is less and the amount of time it takes to A) Pop queue and B) Complete the match combine to reduce the payout. The absurd numbers being dropped about PvP and GSF in this argument are hyperbolic nonsense.

 

But hey, here is an idea. Go do some GSF missions yourself. I don't care if you don't like PvP, this game in general and Conquest in particular is about many different aspects and if you don't like or don't want to do one of them then you are gimping yourself. It isn't EA/BW's fault.

 

Ground PvP is even easier. You can get a toon to level 10 and start PvPing in the lowbie bracket for points. Since everyone there is low level and hasn't gotten their full abilities yet it is actually more fun than the level 55 stun-fest. Or hit mid range after level 30 for a bit more challenge.

 

Either way, the change is what it is and you either deal with it or move on. Running unlimited FP's was not intended and has been fixed.

[Khevar]

Obligatory "where you there last week when Alderaan had a 3x PvP Bonus and a 3x PvE bonus"?

That's true. Any time where you have a PvE and a PvP bonus in the same invasion its going to favor PvP. Something does need to be changed to fix this.

 

Infinitely repeating flashpoints is NOT the solution. Adding more objectives is the solution. World bosses. Named champions on planets. etc.

[Grayseven]

That's true. Any time where you have a PvE and a PvP bonus in the same invasion its going to favor PvP. Something does need to be changed to fix this.

 

Infinitely repeating flashpoints is NOT the solution. Adding more objectives is the solution. World bosses. Named champions on planets. etc.

 

No, it won't.

 

You think just because PvP is repeatable it will, but if you don't understand how long it takes to get a queue to pop and then play a match you won't get why it won't.

 

When only wins count, it gets even worse.

 

Crafting is PvE and infinitely repeatable with mats being the only constraint. PvP is infinitely repeatable and time is the constraint. It comes out as a wash. This fixed a glaring exploit where PvE was actually beyond favored. In the amount of time it takes to get one PvP queue to pop and play a match you could run 3 FP's or more.

 

But your easy mode is gone and now you actually have to do more than rush through the easiest FP over and over for points.

 

Those of us who do everything and have fun doing it have a bigger advantage than those that don't, what are you going to do to make our play style fair to the Only crowd that picks one thing and stomps their feet whenever something encourages them to try a new thing?

[Khevar]

But your easy mode is gone and now you actually have to do more than rush through the easiest FP over and over for points.

 

You have got to be the least observant person in this entire thread. I've been arguing that removing the infinitely repeatable flashpoints is NOT A BIG DEAL. I've been providing math that shows how easy it is to gain PvE points on Balmorra this week. I've been arguing against absurd hyperbole such as "screwing PvE'ers"

 

So do me a favor. Go back and read my posts before you start tossing drivel like the above MY WAY, hmm?

Edited August 30, 2014 by Khevar

[BillEdwardz]

I'm totally fine with nerfing PVP conquest points if we could get more decorations out of PVP.

 

I completely agree, I understand that they are trying to get people to play starfighters and PvP, but they both are complete crap (they didn't have to be) and forcing us to play it is just insulting.

 

And what? It's fair that I've had to play a bunch of boring FPs and Heroics to get certain decorations?

[Racjel]

Don't see an issue

[errant_knight]

1. You can still do well without pvp. There are guilds who made a conscious decision not to exploit who are proving that and are not only in the top 3 but are, in some cases, winning.

 

2. If people weren't knowingly circumventing intended gameplay by skipping content entirely, they prob would have left things as they were for this round rather than change it midstream, but they couldn't let people who were actively cheating the system continue to the detriment of those who weren't. Just because you can do something, it doesn't mean you should. So don't blame Bioware, blame those who skip gameplay that was obviously intended to win more easily.

[Grayseven]

 

You have got to be the least observant person in this entire thread. I've been arguing that removing the infinitely repeatable flashpoints is NOT A BIG DEAL. I've been providing math that shows how easy it is to gain PvE points on Balmorra this week. I've been arguing against absurd hyperbole such as "screwing PvE'ers"

 

So do me a favor. Go back and read my posts before you start tossing drivel like the above MY WAY, hmm?

 

Whoops, my bad, responded to wrong person in that one...too many threads on the same topic for early in the morning.

[Khevar]

Whoops, my bad, responded to wrong person in that one...too many threads on the same topic for early in the morning.

Sorry, I didn't have my coffee yet and was snippy.

[ivanhedgehog]

No, it won't.

 

You think just because PvP is repeatable it will, but if you don't understand how long it takes to get a queue to pop and then play a match you won't get why it won't.

 

When only wins count, it gets even worse.

 

Crafting is PvE and infinitely repeatable with mats being the only constraint. PvP is infinitely repeatable and time is the constraint. It comes out as a wash. This fixed a glaring exploit where PvE was actually beyond favored. In the amount of time it takes to get one PvP queue to pop and play a match you could run 3 FP's or more.

 

But your easy mode is gone and now you actually have to do more than rush through the easiest FP over and over for points.

 

Those of us who do everything and have fun doing it have a bigger advantage than those that don't, what are you going to do to make our play style fair to the Only crowd that picks one thing and stomps their feet whenever something encourages them to try a new thing?

 

well,bw is encouraging people to try games that provide pve content...maybe that will work out for them. if I end up in a pvp match I can tell you now I will be on a suicide mission just to complete it. because it was forced on me.

 

welcome to the wonderful world of using subscriber accounts to beta test.

Edited August 30, 2014 by ivanhedgehog

[Uruare]

well,bw is encouraging people to try games that provide pve content...maybe that will work out for them. if I end up in a pvp match I can tell you now I will be on a suicide mission just to complete it. because it was forced on me.

 

welcome to the wonderful world of using subscriber accounts to beta test.

 

I'm kinda sick of this trend of release being the actual beta for pretty much everything everywhere.

 

I know what the alleged benefits are, but they don't ever seem to manifest in reality.

 

Games have gotten nothing but shoddier on the whole, with the big excuse being that they'll listen to player feedback and make smart improvements along the way.

 

What actually happens is that that seem to rush things even more, never actually get around to making most of the improvements they promise or at least obviously need, and seem to typically listen to nobody but themselves on most anything, ever.

 

What do we get for our trouble? Shoddier games that stay shoddy longer, and are typically tailored only to the wants and needs of their marketing department.

 

We stooges are just the cash cows that keep believing the b.s that is for us. Yeah, they care. Uh huh.

 

I can see exactly what they care about in many of these games.

 

Deliver as little as possible, as cheaply as can be leveraged against retention and acceptable losses. Maximize profits, minimize expenses.

 

Everything else is just noise.

[Transairion]

That's true. Any time where you have a PvE and a PvP bonus in the same invasion its going to favor PvP. Something does need to be changed to fix this.

 

Infinitely repeating flashpoints is NOT the solution. Adding more objectives is the solution. World bosses. Named champions on planets. etc.

 

 

Erm, what?

 

World bosses are spawn limited.

 

Named champs are spawn limited.

 

 

PvP is entirely limited by "can I be bothered?" and "is my server dead"?. If the answer is Yes to the first and No to the latter, then you have no limits.

 

There is absolutely nothing wrong with someone being bothered to do old irrevelant Flashpoints repeatedly IF, mind you, FP rewards were normalized to 500 as they should be. But no, instead of doing that they make them Weekly 1000's.

 

As someone who's solo'd Ess, Battle of Ilum and False Emperor I can tell you easy it's not a quick hop and a skip through and is brutally slow to the point I could do multiple PvP/GSF in the time it took to do one.

 

For how "easy" Essesles is, my goodness the conversations alone took up almost all the playtime and almost shattered my spacebar. It was utter misery, but it's perfectly within someone's right to grind that if they want.

 

 

You can't point the finger and say "this is allowed to be repeatedable, but this isn't", because that's bull. Either they're repeatable and give the same amount of Conquest points, or they're all Weeklies not this current lopsided system.

 

 

 

No, it won't.

 

You think just because PvP is repeatable it will, but if you don't understand how long it takes to get a queue to pop and then play a match you won't get why it won't.

 

When only wins count, it gets even worse.

 

Crafting is PvE and infinitely repeatable with mats being the only constraint. PvP is infinitely repeatable and time is the constraint. It comes out as a wash. This fixed a glaring exploit where PvE was actually beyond favored. In the amount of time it takes to get one PvP queue to pop and play a match you could run 3 FP's or more.

 

That's utter bull, you're simply on a server with a dead PvP population if you think that's true.

 

 

On my server practically every time I press the PvP/GSF button I get a pop within a few minutes max, and my server is a PvE server too.

 

Not my or anyone's else fault if your server isn't active enough for PvP to be competitive for you

Edited August 31, 2014 by Transairion