Bioware... please remove decorations from PvP!

[codycroft]

So, just some perspective. I'm not a PVPer, though I do PVP fairly regularly. My main is a mish mash of Obroan and Brut and full 180 for PVE set (well, got my 186 relics). I do ok in regs, nothing spectacular but ok, and I have only done ranked two or three times.

 

But... I have lots of toons, some I don't play all the time. So I busted out the old shadow recently, he was mostly a tank for the year I've had him. Been playing balance with the sage lately and wanted to check it out on the shadow. Pulled him off the shelf, dusted him off and he had about 2/3 conquerors gear, which is now worthless for PVP. That just leaves him with his set of 168 PVE gear until I can grind out the Obroan.

 

I have 3 toons like this actually.

 

It's not that they have never pvp'd. All three are above valor 40, the shadow is almost 70. Just haven't used him in forever and his gear is obsolete. Happens in PVE too.

 

I'm willing to be most of the people you're complaining about are toons just like that. Old toons, not used in a while with obsolete gear and falling back on their PVE gear. But you're saying we shouldn't be in those regs, but without them, how do we grind a new set?

Edited August 25, 2014 by codycroft
typo

[DariusCalera]

So, just some perspective. I'm not a PVPer, though I do PVP fairly regularly. My main is a mish mash of Obroan and Brut and full 180 for PVE set (well, got my 186 relics). I do ok in regs, nothing spectacular but ok, and I have only done ranked two or three times.

 

But... I have lots of toons, some I don't play all the time. So I busted out the old shadow recently, he was mostly a tank for the year I've had him. Been playing balance with the sage lately and wanted to check it out on the shadow. Pulled him off the shelf, dusted him off and he had about 2/3 conquerors gear, which is now worthless for PVP. That just leaves him with his set of 168 PVE gear until I can grind out the Obroan.

 

I have 3 toons like this actually.

 

It's not that they have never pvp'd. All three are above valor 40, the shadow is almost 70. Just haven't used him in forever and his gear is obsolete. Happens in PVE too.

 

I'm willing to be most of the people you're complaining about are toons just like that. Old toons, not used in a while with obsolete gear and falling back on their PVE gear. But you're saying we shouldn't be in those regs, but without them, how do we grind a new set?

 

Repalce the mods with level 46 blues from the vendor, level 53 implants and earpiece, and run with crafted 58 or 61 purples in your MH/OH and go to town. You'll end up with gear comparable to Obroan and, in some cases, better.

[Lanzend]

I see more participation in PvP as a good thing. Yes it's a pain to see newbs on your side, but realize the other side probably has them as well. I for one, enjoy the challenge doing damn good in WZs that are stacked against me (why I play Pub on an Imp dominated server). It makes you a better player as an individual. I have been PvPing for about 6 months and have no grand illusions of being "great".

 

Another thing, you can lower the chances of getting these types by grouping with others you know are solid. It's called "playing an MMO". I know, freaky right? If you don't have a large list of solid PvPers on your friends list, you're doing it wrong, probably haven't PvP'd enough and aren't as good as you think you are.

 

Yesterday the GM of the 4th or 5th ranked conquest guild on my server approached my GM, as he wanted to merge our guilds and earnestly get into PvP. The merge may not happen, and as much as I don't like the idea of more newbs donning the <stim Addicts> tag in WZs (We have recently recruited a number of newer players with genuine interest in PvP as primary engame content), it takes PvPing to learn how to PvP. I know this and the veterans in my guild are willing to stick it out, educate and bust out with the de-newbing skills to make more PvPers.

 

tl:dr (whatever the hell that means, postscript or some sht)

 

If the situation looks dire upon loading in:

A) It's quite possible the other side is just as bad or worse.

B) It really is just a game, nothing to loose your sht over (the butthrt can be strong sometimes).

C) Perform your sht off and challenge yourself to do well as an individual if the odds are near impossible.

D) Educate where you can.

E) Realize it's "Q at your own risk", if you don't want to PvP, don't Q. Nobody has a gun to your head (probably should have been A).

F) Q as a group. If no one wants to group with you, you have other issues to deal with.

Edited August 26, 2014 by Lanzend

[MitchPB]

Perhaps that is why there is ranked and unranked PvP. I don't PvP much. Yes, conquest now gives me an excuse to do a bit more. And I have to agree with the person who said they just can't understand PvP'ers. Another thing; you all drop the WZ whenever you see you're going to lose? That is just dumb. You get comms either way and your comms over time is probably less always dropping the wz your losing trying to get extra comms from wins.

 

Lol ok.

 

PVP gear easy to get, after that all we're queing for is for fun... and theres no fun in losing because half our team is 38k+

 

PVP has always suffered from this... now its even worse.

[sirullrich]

PVPERS stop being elitist. We need all the people. Even if 10 people troll maybe 2 of them will start to like it later and gear properly. Instead of raging teach them. If they don't listen well w/e. WE NEED MORE PEOPLE IN PVP PERIOD!!!!!

[foxmob]

PVPERS stop being elitist. We need all the people. Even if 10 people troll maybe 2 of them will start to like it later and gear properly. Instead of raging teach them. If they don't listen well w/e. WE NEED MORE PEOPLE IN PVP PERIOD!!!!!

the trolls are 99% PVPers in the first place, using troll toons or troll accounts. however, that's not the influx that is being discussed.

[ScarletBlaze]

A friend of mine has been trying to get me to try pvp for 2 1/2 years now and everytime I consider I come to the forums and read all of this and it makes me remember why I will not try pvp.

 

Thanks for reminding me the reasons I had for not trying pvp.

[Icykill_]

So, just some perspective. I'm not a PVPer, though I do PVP fairly regularly. My main is a mish mash of Obroan and Brut and full 180 for PVE set (well, got my 186 relics). I do ok in regs, nothing spectacular but ok, and I have only done ranked two or three times

 

You need to replace any PVE gear over 162 with 156-162, just for pvp... including relics, implants, ear

Anything over 162 will get hit negatively with bolster. Definitely do not use 180+ gear

I can smash a 180 PVE geared Sorc with my Sorc in 156 PVE gear... I tested this the other day on a guy.. To demonstrate this to him I swapped my Brutalizer gear

To get a better understanding of how this works, read this sticky posted in the forums... The start is a bit out dated... The new posts address the current state of bolster - http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=707204

 

 

.

[Icykill_]

Shev,

 

Your post was flat wrong. It's still wrong. PvPers want "quality" PvP, not quantity. I don't want warzones filled up with decoration farmers and AFKers any more than PvEers want their Operations and flashpoints filled up with trolls in lvl 50 greens. The difference is PvEers have this little thing called "VOTE TO KICK" which makes short work of such players. PvPers are being trolled with no such recourse.

 

Agreed Jack...

As much as it would be nice to have more pvpers to boost the population... This is a bad way to do it...

You are 100% correct in saying some people queue and either do not try, farm, death match or afk... Plus they never listen to polite advice from the pvp players... They are usually rude and insulting on top of that

 

Also PVE players never let pvp players queue up for highend ops in their pvp gear... They vote to kick straight away

They never take into account that pvp is fast paced and constantly changing... Our reaction times and playing skills are generally better than the average PVE ops only players...

My old guild were very elitist this way and would never let me join them... So I learned all the strategies from watching you tube videos as they do to start with... LoL... (Nothing like "cheating" the Devs intent for ops and trying to find out by trying it themselves and developing strategies... Lol)... Anyway I asked them to give me a chance to prove I could do it in my Ranked gear... Surprise, surprise... I had zero difficulties... I was even a little bored because all an OP is about is stand here, do this, do this rotation, move here, don't stand there, focus that guy... Every time you do the same OP, it is a repeat over and over... If PVE players want to pvp... Give us pvpers a chance when we ops queue in our Ranked gear... We may surprise you

 

So to sum up... If pve'ers want to pvp... Great, play because you want to pvp... Not queue to farm and go afk... Be polite to the pvpers and listen to their suggestions... You will be surprised how responsive and helpful we can be... We want to win... So we will help train you if you are serious... It's not like PVE... Every match is different with fluid tactics depending on the other team

 

Bio please remove incentives for non serious pvpers to queue... Not just decorations, but pvp relics should also be limited to pvp or at least useless in ops

 

 

.

[Elusive_Thing]

Worth noting that the PVE-geared people are bound to be on the other side as well. People here talk as if only their team gets the 180-geared raiders while every other team is packing Madness Sins, PT's, Juggies and Operative healers in fully optimised Brutalizer gear. To be fair, having the common courtesy of getting some cheap planetary comm gear and whatnot would be appreciated. I have recently taken a few toons back to PvP after a long stint of raiding and I've been shuffling Legacy gear between them (two of them use Cunning, two use Aim) and it has worked fine. Too bad the augmentation kits were expensive.

[Elusive_Thing]

My old guild were very elitist this way and would never let me join them... So I learned all the strategies from watching you tube videos as they do to start with... LoL... (Nothing like "cheating" the Devs intent for ops and trying to find out by trying it themselves and developing strategies... Lol)... Anyway I asked them to give me a chance to prove I could do it in my Ranked gear... Surprise, surprise... I had zero difficulties... I was even a little bored because all an OP is about is stand here, do this, do this rotation, move here, don't stand there, focus that guy... Every time you do the same OP, it is a repeat over and over... If PVE players want to pvp... Give us pvpers a chance when we ops queue in our Ranked gear... We may surprise you

 

So to sum up... If pve'ers want to pvp... Great, play because you want to pvp... Not queue to farm and go afk... Be polite to the pvpers and listen to their suggestions... You will be surprised how responsive and helpful we can be... We want to win... So we will help train you if you are serious... It's not like PVE... Every match is different with fluid tactics depending on the other team

It depends on the difficulty level of the Ops you do. Pushing through NiM SnV in Brutalizer would be a heroic feat from the others, for example. If it's an SM Operation, any of them, I honestly couldn't care any less.

 

And I think most people overstate the dynamic nature of PvP. Especially in regs there usually isn't too much variation when it comes to the basic strategies. Very often you split the team in one of the two or three classic ways and go about your business. The team compositions of course change, but the basic strategies remain. Much like you might be put to do different things in different Ops. And no, I am not saying PvP isn't more dynamic, just that it's often exaggerated.

[ilifus]

Guys.. guys.. I think this is a poor attempt to turn PvP to the "PvE side"

[Belpheghor]

There's a difference between making a genuine effort and aiming to improve both skill and gear and just messing around so you can get points for conquests and comms for decorations. No one wants to be stuck with a premade consiting of four 40K commandos.

 

I think we should launch a counter attack and queue PvE stuff in 10K gear. Heal me, ******!

 

Agreed. If WE crashed their PvE Ops with **** gear on they'd RIP OUR ASSES.....but we're supposed to just LET them ruin our WZ matches??????

[Shevaresh]

Agreed Jack...

As much as it would be nice to have more pvpers to boost the population... This is a bad way to do it...

You are 100% correct in saying some people queue and either do not try, farm, death match or afk... Plus they never listen to polite advice from the pvp players... They are usually rude and insulting on top of that

 

And everybody who decides to give PvP a chance because there's a new incentive to doing it, will, without variation, conform to those standards of simply afk'ing and trolling then? Or perhaps, those people are a very small minority, with the majority of players being simply unskilled (as we all were a one point or another) and therefore playing poorly? As for rude and insulting players, people who don't take advice, etc., that's supposed to be something new? Seems to me that this is more a stable of PvP and MMO-gaming in general, that something that has just appeared with this new incentive for people to PvP. The amount of people using ops-chat in pvp to complain about losing a match because of other people, using various "colorful" terms, doesn't really seem to have risen to any significant degree in my experience. If that is your experience, and not just because its easier to remember that one truely obnoxious a..hole, then I feel sorry for you, but I'd still doubt there's any significant correlation or causation between Bioware implementing new incentives to PvP and such behavior.

 

Bio please remove incentives for non serious pvpers to queue... Not just decorations, but pvp relics should also be limited to pvp or at least useless in ops.

 

So that it is only the most puritanical "PvP'ers" that can and would want to PvP? However great that might sound, in theory, that is actually somewhat that which Bioware has implemented up until this point. The result of which has been a slow, but steady, decline of the PvP-part of this game, which Bioware probably doesn't think is a great thing for their game. Probably why they implemented bolster aswell.

 

To turn the issue a bit "upside down", I think the real question might actually be: Why would any serious/dedicated/puritanical etc. PvP'er ever chose SWToR as their game, when there are so many other MMOs out there that offers a truely hardcore PvP-experience, with this "no catering to casuals" attitude, that they apperantly seek? League of Legends or Arena in any of the top-tier battlegroups in WoW would be much better options for such players, just as any who wanted to be truely competitive about PvE would probably choose WoW or Wildstar over SWTOR. Far more competition and much less "catering to casuals", compared to a game(swtor) that time and time again shown themselves to be more concerned with delivering a good experience for casual players.

 

And I'm not trying to troll people or be mean to them here, but don't you ever stop to wonder if you're simply "barking up the wrong tree" trying to implement a hardcore PvP(or PvE for that matter) experience and dynamic, in a game that has many times over shown to try and fill one of the casual-niches of the MMO-market? Developers has to choose which direction to take a game in, and it does seem to me that Bioware has time and time again shown themselves to focus on a direction that's probably more aptly coined "casual cosplay" than anything else, with the big focus on the Cartel market equipment over all else. A niché where, even though there are some branching out into more "hardcore'ish" PvP and PvE experiences, is predominantly focused on the casual players needs and wants. The "Bolster" mechanic would indeed be a good indication of this, as any developer who'd even suggest such a thing in LoL, would most likely be promptly fired, simply because anything that even might seem to cater to a casual playstyle there, would be seen as offensive.

[MitchPB]

And I'm not trying to troll people or be mean to them here, but don't you ever stop to wonder if you're simply "barking up the wrong tree" trying to implement a hardcore PvP(or PvE for that matter) experience and dynamic

 

Of course not this game is by no means hard... which makes it even more sad how patheticly unskilled these people are and alot of them have been playing for months, even years.

 

The whole "teach the noobs" sentiment is all well and good... but after dealing with this kind of player for 2 1/2 years most of us cbf.

Edited August 26, 2014 by MitchPB

[Shevaresh]

Of course not this game is by no means hard... which makes it even more sad how patheticly unskilled these people are and alot of them have been playing for months, even years.

 

The whole "teach the noobs" sentiment is all well and good... but after dealing with this kind of player for 2 1/2 years most of us cbf.

 

Then why don't you go elsewhere, where you would indeed find a generally high level of PvP-competence in the community? (And no, this is not a "please leave the game" sort of response, I'm simply honestly curious) Why stay in a game that so obviously caters to casuals players, if it annoys you so much that some people joining PvP are "pathetically unskilled" as you put it? Why not go to WoW or LoL, where your own merits as a PvP'er would be tested much more than it would ever do here?

[Fdzzaigl]

To the whiners: have you ever played an MMO where PvP was the main form of content? Do you think that even in a game with practically no PvE'rs or even no PvE you're gonna get perfect teams who know what to do and are reasonably skilled all the time?

Do you truly believe that if you remain as much of an elitist as you can possibly be in those games, that you won't ever get owned and humiliated and laughed at because someone in your team is being bad and inexperienced?

 

You're playing PvP for god's sake, it is supposed to be an unpredictable and dynamic type of content where you have to constantly adapt to advantages and disadvantages.

 

Seriously, grow some nuts and DEAL WITH IT.

 

If you want to play in a perfectly controlled environment where personal skill can be measured by the numbers, guess what? Go join a PvE raiding guild, because that's exactly what you're asking for.

 

Like someone on the first page said: for PvP to be any success, you'll need the new players, even the bads.

Edited August 26, 2014 by Fdzzaigl

[MitchPB]

Then why don't you go elsewhere, where you would indeed find a generally high level of PvP-competence in the community? (And no, this is not a "please leave the game" sort of response, I'm simply honestly curious) Why stay in a game that so obviously caters to casuals players, if it annoys you so much that some people joining PvP are "pathetically unskilled" as you put it? Why not go to WoW or LoL, where your own merits as a PvP'er would be tested much more than it would ever do here?

 

I meant this game isn't hard and i'm fine with it being that way, this game is clearly aimed on casuals (bolster, the way conquest is designed etc) but that is still no excuse for not putting effort into getting better or not queuing up for something when you really shouldn't.

 

As someone put it earlier quality not quantity.

[Souliena]

Heaven forbid more pvp'er enter the pool. As long as their not just sitting in a corner stealthed you should be encouraging people to start pvp'ing. How good were you when you first started pvp'ing in swtor?

 

It is not about people who are really new in this game. It is more about people who play PVE for a long time and now start with PVP without asking what is important.

The biggest problem is that people are not willed to deal with bolster system and expertise-stat.

They are not interested in winnig warzones and they aren't interested in getting hints.

 

If I would que for an hardmode flashpoint with 10k life, people would vote me out.

(A friend had this situation yesterday, that an assassin with srenght-equip and only 10k life joined Lost Island HM)

If I want to do for example Dread Palace HM people wouldn't take me with them with my PVP-gear.

 

In PVP I don't have a chance to vote someone out, who don't even try to get at least 2000 expertise.

It is bad to que with 1000 expertise instead using bolster and if you try to explain them they only say 'doesnt matter to me, I only want to get those relics / decoration / ... and I'm not interested in winning this warzone'

Those people who aren't even interested in winnig a warzone shouldn't play PVP.

That is not what people wanted for warzones.

[Shevaresh]

I meant this game isn't hard and i'm fine with it being that way, this game is clearly aimed on casuals (bolster, the way conquest is designed etc) but that is still no excuse for not putting effort into getting better or not queuing up for something when you really shouldn't.

 

As someone put it earlier quality not quantity.

 

Isn't it? Isn't Bolster, and now conquest points, indeed very good excuses for not having to put loads of effort into understanding the pvp-mechanics before you even join? (and then hopefully learn by trial and error) That, simply put, the entry-level requirements for PvP'ing, just as it is for PvE-content, is set at the lowest denominator allowing people to try it out without having a "masters-degree" in the theorycrafting beforehand? (A.k.a. the exact reverse of the entry-level requirements of LoL, as a hardcore experience, where you WILL be kicked if you do not "play as a pro" straight off.) You can still be useful to your team and provide a good effort, even if your gear is *****e, because of the design-direction this game has taken.

 

If you are looking for "quality, not quantity" then why not just limit your PvP'ing to top-end team ranked PvP, where you will probably be far more challenged, than the random warzones with no-entry level requirements, which is catered to the casual player with bolster and conquest points?

 

Again, with a game catering to casuals with its core mechanics, complaining about having to play with the unskilled casual players at the entry-level pvp-content seems slightly illogical to me. How is this influx of new players anything bad, when its a prime source for more "pops" meaning quicker done dailies and some hillarious moments of "pure-ownage" of these noobs? So what if it means you'll lose a few more wz's because of people not understanding tactics or how bolster works? Who truely cares about whether you win or lose in these warzones, when they're ultimately worth nothing more than grinding coms for any dedicated PvP'er? Furthermore Warzone victories are usually based on a collective effort of the team, meaning that any loss isn't a negative reflection of your personal skill, unless you think yourself a "godly skilled" PvP'er that "turns the tide" of a warzone match by yourself. You could simply brush off any defeat as you being on a team with less-skilled players and be "none-the-sadder" for the experience (meant as a general remark to people complaining about "noobs" in pvp, not nescesarily you MitchPB (just to clarify))

[Joesixxpack]

A friend of mine has been trying to get me to try pvp for 2 1/2 years now and everytime I consider I come to the forums and read all of this and it makes me remember why I will not try pvp.

 

Thanks for reminding me the reasons I had for not trying pvp.

 

Of course, if you're looking for a lame excuse for not doing something internet forums are great.

 

If you ever want to stop PVEing be sure to check out that "Weird People..." thread.

Edited August 26, 2014 by Joesixxpack

[spacefiddle]

Add valor rank 60 to PvP items.

 

The idea is to have more of them in pvp gear, not less

[JackNader]

OK fixes

 

Bolster

 

Great idea, horrible implementation.

 

What bolster should do is :-

 

1)Set the entry level for PvP. ( Current PvP base gear is 29. Brutalizer is 30.) Set the bolstered level to 1 level below present first tier gear.

 

Entry level PvP thus becomes Item level 28

 

2) Bolster checks every single slot on your gear and bolsters the item level of your gear either up or down so that it is always 28. PvP gear is ALWAYS better than bolstered gear.

 

ie.

PvE 34B mods become PvE 28B mods.

PvE 15A mods become PvE 28A mods

 

PvE 32 Skill barrels become PvE 28 Skill barrels

PvE 20 Skill barrels become PvE 28 Skill barrels

 

etc, etc

 

Naked players are given a default bolstering.

 

ie. a sorcerer who joins with no armor slot is given item level 28 Force Wielder armoring via default. If the player wants resolve armoring instead he/she will need to install that type of armoring.

 

Expertise is completely unnecessary. Leave it as an open world stat only or as a quick means for the system to distinguish between first or 2nd tier gear. Every single player has max expertise, bolstered or not while in the warzone.

 

The way implants / earpieces and relics presently operate would need some revision. These items would need customizable shells so that they can be bolstered in accordance with the rules stated above. Ensure that these shells are available from lvl 10 onwards.

 

3) Players who are sub 10 - 54 are given an additional level of bolstering to their damage reduction stats to try and compensate them for their lack of abilities. This additional level reduces with level.

 

Warzones

 

Standard warzones are used to acquire 1st and 2nd tier PvP gear. Commendations can additionally be spent on various items which are of use within the warzone. Adrenals and stims fall into this category. Decorations do not!

 

Ranked Warzones

 

Ranked Warzones require max expertise and an advanced class to participate. That is, you MUST have full 2nd tier PvP gear to queue. Additional rewards are given and are exclusive to the ranked format. This format is not for casuals. Like nightmare content, it is for the hardcore PvPers.

 

Valor commendations

 

Players who actively participate and perform well are given an additional reward beyond that of gear in the form of valor commendations. These can be used to unlock various PvP stronghold decorations or other items exclusive to PvP content. Valor rankings can also be applicable which might lock certain decorations to various different valor rankings. This means that new players do not have to choose between gearing out their toon or buying various rewards. If they want this layer of rewards then they will have to play and excel at the PvP format. The better the player, the faster they can acquire rewards.

Edited August 26, 2014 by JackNader

[LordHartigan]

You dont pvp for comms

 

Is there some other way to get the currency for PvP gear? Like I said, I don't PvP much.

[LordHartigan]

Lol ok.

 

PVP gear easy to get, after that all we're queing for is for fun... and theres no fun in losing because half our team is 38k+

 

PVP has always suffered from this... now its even worse.

 

So you're saying PvP suffers from people who aren't very good at it playing it? That makes complete sense (sarcasm). But hey, I'm happy for anyone who was born with the innate skill to pick up PvP for the first time and be really good at it.