why is the SWTOR community so against "pay to win"

[CyberneticDucks]

whenever i try to suggest giving any kind of non-aesthetic purpose to spending real money, people in the community put their earplugs in and rant about it being "pay to win". as far as i see it, the CM should be used to bypass work, but so long as someone can work hard for something just as powerful, then it isn't "pay to win" as the community rants about.

 

a perfect example that is actually a reality is the CM crystals. they are available at level 10 and claimable in the collections tab, yet someone can craft or buy a crystal of equal power at level 50, this is my ideal of "bypassing work" in action.

 

with very few non-cosmetic things in the cartel market (speeders, crystals, pre-modded armor, legacy perks), it is my guess that bioware might actually be losing money. if members of the community are happy with their cosmetic choices they've unlocked in their collections, they have little reason to buy CC.

 

another example of the whole cosmetic thing not working out well is what happened with GSF. completely useless paints, paint schemes, and color modules for blaster fire and engines were all that were available. the only good use for CC was buying CM ships, which recycled models that were already in the game, and transferring ship req into fleet req (again, my "bypassing work" philosophy). i think the lack of CM use was what might have made GSF bomb as much as it did.

 

i would like to see some advanced implants, earpieces, offhands, and mods of all levels (counting by 5's) purchasable with CC that are equipable by anyone 5 levels early. some other uses would also be nice.

 

anyway, as with the title of this thread, i would like to non-threateningly (the community has a tendency to lash at the slightest thing) ask why everyone is so against what is so natural for an MMO.

[Khevar]

There are other games that offer a Pay 2 Win approach. Spending real-world dollars gives someone an actual playable in-game advantage of some sort.

 

These games end up being structured such that if you DON'T spend money in the cash shop, you are gimped.

 

Your ability to play the game becomes tied to how much additional money you pump into it, instead of simply your subscription fees and skill.

 

Offering only cosmetic features in a cash shop does not have the same effect.

Edited August 15, 2014 by Khevar

[Vandicus]

Some games cater to people who enjoy p2win, some do not. Its a particularly popular structure in asian MMOs.

 

This game caters to the crowd that would prefer in-game power be earned instead of bought.

[ninjonxb]

One of the big things about MMO's is that regardless of how much money you make in the RL, you are on the same level as everyone else.

[Master_Hitsugaya]

whenever i try to suggest giving any kind of non-aesthetic purpose to spending real money, people in the community put their earplugs in and rant about it being "pay to win". as far as i see it, the CM should be used to bypass work, but so long as someone can work hard for something just as powerful, then it isn't "pay to win" as the community rants about.

 

a perfect example that is actually a reality is the CM crystals. they are available at level 10 and claimable in the collections tab, yet someone can craft or buy a crystal of equal power at level 50, this is my ideal of "bypassing work" in action.

 

with very few non-cosmetic things in the cartel market (speeders, crystals, pre-modded armor, legacy perks), it is my guess that bioware might actually be losing money. if members of the community are happy with their cosmetic choices they've unlocked in their collections, they have little reason to buy CC.

 

another example of the whole cosmetic thing not working out well is what happened with GSF. completely useless paints, paint schemes, and color modules for blaster fire and engines were all that were available. the only good use for CC was buying CM ships, which recycled models that were already in the game, and transferring ship req into fleet req (again, my "bypassing work" philosophy). i think the lack of CM use was what might have made GSF bomb as much as it did.

 

i would like to see some advanced implants, earpieces, offhands, and mods of all levels (counting by 5's) purchasable with CC that are equipable by anyone 5 levels early. some other uses would also be nice.

 

anyway, as with the title of this thread, i would like to non-threateningly (the community has a tendency to lash at the slightest thing) ask why everyone is so against what is so natural for an MMO.

 

Why stop there why not full 180 gear for you and your comp that you can use at lvl 1 sure some people spent dozens if not hundred of hours but you can be just as good as they are in just 5 mins by spending real money.

[light_senshi]

Pay to win tends to be self perpetuating. You have a new player who's dropped thousands into a game and is better equipped, often better skilled (some mmos allow you to buy bonus skill points with real cash), and buffed with all those consumables that make them even more outrageous.

 

The only people I've known over the years (and I've been playing MMOs since before WoW came out) who actually liked the idea are the very people spending so much real money in the first place. The sharp lack of "pay to win" is one of the things I actually like about this game after so many years of dealing with p2w cash shop games.

[Sangrar]

why would the game need this though? I mean really from the data we have been given, in the cartel markets current state, without pay to win, cartel sales are going up. Based off that Bioware is clearly not losing any money. Strongholds from what we can tell so far, thanks to cartel coins options for strongholds ( particularly the tatooine stronghold) could help make more money.

 

 

also, here is my opinion on why gsf was not as popular as it was intended in the beginning (although on my server I can still occasionally que up and get a match). Simply put, gsf is among the only playable content that, without a queue pop, you cannot really practice or are used to doing. We use our ground characters all the time, so naturally people gravitated in the end more to something that they pretty much had 24/7 access to in contrast to gsf, which you could only get whenever the queue popped. Naturally it declined, because you had to wait until the next queue pop to do it again, you couldn't do it at your leisure, and it had pretty much no effect on the ground game ( except for the usual xp, daily, and credit rewards). With strongholds I see it being different though. A huge section of fleet has been rededicated to Strongholds ( and on the main level too so everyone can see instead of like the gsf area that was on a random level). Also crafting has been adjusted accordingly too, and most importantly, you can visit the stronghold anytime you want, even show it off to friends and random people. Unlike gsf strongholds has a very huge tie to the ground game, so there is very likely to be increased cartel market sales throughout the duration of strongholds due to this more expansive effect.

 

my point is, why would bioware want to have a pay to win appoach ( or as you have equated it to, pay to skip might be more accurate) when bioware is clearly not losing any money? at the most maybe they would do it at the point in time years from now when this game is close to its end to at that point get as much out of their investment as humanly possible, but right now there is simply no need or point. And in fact, by making the players work to get gear and whatever, some players might be retained and play the game over a longer period of time before moving to something else, so I can see that kind of reasoning too. But I can see the opposing arguement of people getting tired of grinding, just like to point out though.

[collinc]

So pay to win is a big problem on it's own, and can become a huge problem. Let's go over some scenarios.

 

You can buy warzone commendations. Right now warzone commendations can be converted to ranked commendations. If that stays, it means that day 1 of a new pvp tier coming out you could buy it. Or you could earn it over time. Getting a full set of ranked gear can take a long time right now. Something probably along the lines of 20,000 ranked commendations. It will be much more difficult to earn those if you cannot compete in ranked warzones because some people day 1 will out gear you in every slot. So it becomes pay to play. Want to seriously compete in pvp? You better pay up for it. And this is on top of your monthly subscriber payment.

 

What if they release consumable buffs? +20% damage for 2 hours. Obviously that's a problem for pvp as well, but it's also a problem for pve. A lot of guilds compete to be the first to complete a new operation. If one guild uses the consumable and another doesn't, it's much more likely that the guild that pays will win. What if a lot of ops groups start saying that you have to have the consumable if you want to raid with them, much like a gear requirement? What happens when EA gets greedy and starts designing content for people that use these new buffs? They're just answering player demand. Now you can't even complete the hardest operations without paying money. Again, on top of your subscription.

 

The point is that there should never be content that you have to pay for beyond your subscription. And admittedly a bit of pay to win is sneaking into strongholds, and a little was snuck into GSF. But more of that can only be a bad thing and drive more players away.

[Drake_Hound]

Pay to win breed competition of idiots, who cannot let go of there investment till it is too late!

 

In my opnion that is not the way to go forward for escapisme!

I think what EA/Bioware did so far is good, simply everybody can be competitive.

And everybody can play at there own pace, if people feel the need to gamble or reward EA/Bioware additional.

For the game time they had fun playing so be it.

 

If people feel the need to take a break they might not catch up on CM purchases, but they are still available trough GTN.

In the end the system we have now is quite good, remember if 1 million people are playing, even with 50 average a year spending is 50 million annually income!

That is not a small income at all for the current smaller team and service crew.

[yeldarbnotned]

Why stop there why not full 180 gear for you and your comp that you can use at lvl 1 sure some people spent dozens if not hundred of hours but you can be just as good as they are in just 5 mins by spending real money.

 

Can't you already do this? You buy unopened pack/crates with real money. Then, you sell for millions on the gtn. Then, you buy millions worth of 180 armoring, mods, hilts, enhancements, implants, etc.

[Prototypemind]

with very few non-cosmetic things in the cartel market (speeders, crystals, pre-modded armor, legacy perks), it is my guess that bioware might actually be losing money. if members of the community are happy with their cosmetic choices they've unlocked in their collections, they have little reason to buy CC.

 

 

For quite some time most of the desirable speeders were 600CC to unlock, and most sets at least 240, if not 600CC as well. It's not cheap to unlock all of your favorite sets in collections, and those who unlock them all pump quite a bit of money into the game. They definitely are not losing money on the CM from this, nor are they losing money from it on the whole.

 

As to P2W, a game where you don't need to play to gain becomes pointless. If the best armor--as in set pieces and top tier armorings, items like the Corruptor Blade, rare mounts, etc, were a guarantee via the cash shop the game would simply become boring. The mind isn't stimulated or satisfied by easily gotten goods, not for most anyway. Beyond that, players like knowing that they started at the same place as all other players and whatever top tier items they have they have earned through the same chances as any other players have available and managed to succeed through effort.

Edited August 16, 2014 by Prototypemind

[annabethchase]

I'm against it because it will drive intelligent players away from the game, and I'll no longer be able to enjoy group content. The game would become solo only for people not interested in throwing money away.

[Drake_Hound]

Look if more active sub is required, then why not introduce veteran rewards.

That is a effective way to sell more Cartel Coins and keep people subbed, those who drop to F2P usually don't raid anymore. But give then incentive to sub cause of selfishe reasons.

 

And all others a reason to keep paying even on holiday times, usually works well.

Allowing people to buy with cartel coins missing months or years also evens the playing ground.

Sadly veteran rewards downfall, is a lot of work and planning required years ahead.

 

And also allowing the right Overpowered/Stimulating bonus to appear in intervals.

But that is also the same mindset of FOTM and P2W games.

Indulge in that first, before introducing P2W scenario that cannot be turned back once it starts.

Sorry that is reality once people leave P2W around 90% never ever come back!

Cause it is pointless to play catch up when you can drop that same amount of money into new P2W games.

And become king for 6 months.

[CyberneticDucks]

it doesn't need to get outrageous, the examples people are giving for pay to win are extreme. so long as we keep it in control some level of pay to win probably wouldn't be too bad.

 

i'm not suggesting having level 55 gear purchasable at level 1 or anything, that is too far.

[CyberneticDucks]

For quite some time most of the desirable speeders were 600CC to unlock, and most sets at least 240, if not 600CC as well. It's not cheap to unlock all of your favorite sets in collections, and those who unlock them all pump quite a bit of money into the game. They definitely are not losing money on the CM from this, nor are they losing money from it on the whole.

 

As to P2W, a game where you don't need to play to gain becomes pointless. If the best armor--as in set pieces and top tier armorings, items like the Corruptor Blade, rare mounts, etc, were a guarantee via the cash shop the game would simply become boring. The mind isn't stimulated or satisfied by easily gotten goods, not for most anyway. Beyond that, players like knowing that they started at the same place as all other players and whatever top tier items they have they have earned through the same chances as any other players have available and managed to succeed through effort.

 

i am suggesting that the CM should offer gear equivalent to the best gear available through gameplay.

 

i certainly don't want the CM gear to be superior to normal gear, just equal to. the only advantage of paying money is that it woulds be easier and a bit earlier.

 

with swtor, players are not usually fighting other players, and when they are they are bolstered to a generic level usually.

Edited August 16, 2014 by CyberneticDucks

[Kalfear]

I already consider this game P2W to be honest.

TO MUCH is allowed to be bought by cartel coins rather then EARNED IN GAME as it should be

 

People like to blah blah blah about cosmetics stuff but that cosmetic stuff IS DESIRED and should be earnable in game rather then buying with Cartel Coins or even off GTN.

 

But I will say straight up

 

The day the game starts doing stuff like the OP wants is the day I close down my subscription for good.

 

No desire to play with those types

 

Its already bad enough with the game being so easy mode and dumbed down that fresh 55s have no clue how to play their characters because they been spoon fed everything.

 

Once they dumb it down so badly that bad players can buy everything

Well I know I dont want to play with those types and im sure I'm far far far from alone in that.

 

The current model is actually working for TOR so I see no reason to open the cartel shop up even more and ultimately dumb down the game even more.

 

Game breaker issue for me.

[CyberneticDucks]

Look if more active sub is required, then why not introduce veteran rewards.

That is a effective way to sell more Cartel Coins and keep people subbed, those who drop to F2P usually don't raid anymore. But give then incentive to sub cause of selfishe reasons.

 

And all others a reason to keep paying even on holiday times, usually works well.

Allowing people to buy with cartel coins missing months or years also evens the playing ground.

Sadly veteran rewards downfall, is a lot of work and planning required years ahead.

 

And also allowing the right Overpowered/Stimulating bonus to appear in intervals.

But that is also the same mindset of FOTM and P2W games.

Indulge in that first, before introducing P2W scenario that cannot be turned back once it starts.

Sorry that is reality once people leave P2W around 90% never ever come back!

 

Cause it is pointless to play catch up when you can drop that same amount of money into new P2W games.

And become king for 6 months.

 

i don't know what veteran rewards are, but i assume you mean some kind of reward for subs that are subscribed for a longer period of time. that would certainly keep people from just subbing for 2 months to get the bonuses for expansions like the GSH nar shaddaa house.

[LordArtemis]

I'm not against pay to win, just like I'm not particularly for it either. I couldnt care less either way.

 

If I were to make an assumption, I would assume that most dont care one way or another either, unless they participate in direct competitive play, which is usually a minority of the playerbase. Most casual players, IMO, do not care what others do and how they play. They only care about their own playing experience.

 

Now, that said, I would not care for a system that REQUIRES you to pay extra to advance past a certain point where one would expect that no such gate should exist, something like paying to move past level X, or paying to have the ability to earn credits in game. That is probably going to far, and would likely effect EVERYONE.

 

I think for most folks that speak against pay to win it is to stand against this kind of practice. A very small group of folks, IMO, stand against any form of pay to win, no matter how small....

 

I have seen folks call SWTOR pay to win because they require you to pay a sub to remove yourself from preferred status and the locks that are part of that status....to me that was a really silly contention to make.

 

If that is the case, ALL GAMES ARE PAY TO WIN THAT REQUIRE A SUB TO PLAY.

[Khevar]

i am suggesting that the CM should offer gear equivalent to the best gear available through gameplay.

 

i certainly don't want the CM gear to be superior to normal gear, just equal to. the only advantage of paying money is that it woulds be easier and a bit earlier.

 

with swtor, players are not usually fighting other players, and when they are they are bolstered to a generic level usually.

But why do you want this? What problem are you trying to solve? What's wrong with having to go to the GTN, or craft it yourself, or use planetary commendations?

[Aebrynis]

People like to blah blah blah about cosmetics stuff but that cosmetic stuff IS DESIRED and should be earnable in game rather then buying with Cartel Coins or even off GTN.

 

This is the only part of your post that I had trouble comprehending. Namely, I'm having trouble figuring out why you would obsess over how someone else gets something that doesn't affect you in the slightest manner.

 

A level 55 weapon on the market - yes, that affects you, because they buy it and then barely know which end the pew pew or the shimmery cutty-thing comes out of, and that has the potential to get you killed when, for example, Malgus is preparing to compress you into Zabrak Patties during a flashpoint. No one can really argue that.

 

But getting upset because someone is wearing a garment that confers no greater advantage than the one they swapped it out for? That the only difference is style, cut, and appearance? A Formal Bermuda Shorts gets discarded for Exar Kun's Codpiece? That's something worth freaking out over? Seriously?

 

I'm not trying to be flip here - I'm genuinely baffled by this. If you want to waste your time fretting over something that trivial and pointless, be my guest, but don't expect a whole lot of understanding or sympathy.

[Adaliaya]

I think Cartel Market works perfect as it is. Player who doesnt spend CC can be just as powerful as player who does; later just looks gorgeous besides being powerful.

 

Also some work-skipping items like XP boosts are avilabe there, tough they are also avilabe as quest rewards. I am absolutely against P2W but absolutely for Pay for Cosmetics.

 

Mobile Game Clash of Clans is perfect example of P2W that has failed. There to play on top line you need to use hundreds of dollars per month. If same system hitted swtor I could only quit because I can't afford hundreds of dollard per month.

[Heat-Wave]

it doesn't need to get outrageous, the examples people are giving for pay to win are extreme. so long as we keep it in control some level of pay to win probably wouldn't be too bad.

 

i'm not suggesting having level 55 gear purchasable at level 1 or anything, that is too far.

 

Yea, but it wouldn't be "kept in control", the temptation is too strong... it would just creep and creep until the old game was gone.

[TheNahash]

anyway, as with the title of this thread, i would like to non-threateningly (the community has a tendency to lash at the slightest thing) ask why everyone is so against what is so natural for an MMO.

 

P2W is not natural for an MMO.

It's the equivalent of using God mode in a single player game. Yeah, it's fun to completely destroy your enemies without them being able to so much as scratch you, but for how long and at what cost?

 

I don't think you fully realize the repercussions of what you're suggesting.

 

- Crafting would be dead. Why go to the trouble of re-ing, crafting and trying to sell an item that is hard and costly to make when someone else would be able to just buy it and resell it on the GTN making the same (if not more) amount of credits?

 

- Running operations would also die out. Operations are fun but after a few runs, once you've learned the tactics and downed the bosses a few times, they become unbearably repetitive. What would be the point in trying to get the gear when you could buy it for CC or from the GTN?

 

- The effects of P2W would ripple out of the game's economy. People are less willing to try out a game that's notoriously P2W (see the hundreds of "F2P" games out there that are not really F2P because in order to be competitive you need to spend massive amounts of money). Others would leave because they'd see no reason in trying hard to get something others can simply buy with money.

 

As someone else already mentioned, the whole point of a game is that no matter how much money you have in real life, in the game you're only as good as your skill and gear. The only thing that should count in a game is that you understand how to play and how to gear your characters. Anything more than fluffy vanity items that only enhance the way your character looks, would cause a severe unbalance in the game's economy and its general standing in the MMO community.

 

As for color crystals, the one and only reason why the CM crystals have not completely destroyed Artifice is because the colors offered for direct purchase or through cartel packs are not the same colors as the ones offered by Artifice.

Edited August 16, 2014 by TheNahash

[Tsillah]

Can't you already do this? You buy unopened pack/crates with real money. Then, you sell for millions on the gtn. Then, you buy millions worth of 180 armoring, mods, hilts, enhancements, implants, etc.

 

Theoretically you could do that, but you'd need more than 10 crates to get geared up. Aside from the high cost in rl currency, the problem there is also that if more people where to try this, the values of crates would drop as the supply would increase too much.

 

Anything that depends on sales to players is not a reliable source of income. It only works if a relatively small amount of people do this, just like crafting. The control mechanism is of course that because of prices dropping the market will be flooded with CM items which will devaluate as well and in the end people will stop buying crates or packs because there is no point to it anymore. That would be bad for the game again.

 

Aside from that I think P2Win is not desirable in a game like this. I think that if people were to take the time to figure out how a couple of things work in this game, they would be surprised at what they can achieve without resorting to pulling their wallet. In the end it's not a lot of work to get geared up at level 55 or before but as they say knowledge is power.

 

Someone else already said it, this game doesn't need gear to be buyable via the CM and I agree. Aside from it being undesirable because of the effects of P2W, I find it difficult to think of a good reason to want this. Even a player with little time can get geared up. It's about knowing how to without having to do anything crazy or very time consuming.

[Kalfear]

This is the only part of your post that I had trouble comprehending. Namely, I'm having trouble figuring out why you would obsess over how someone else gets something that doesn't affect you in the slightest manner.

 

 

does affect me

 

I want a Bantha (for example) yet there is no quest line I can partake in to EARN ONE

There is no boss I can kill for the chance at a rare drop

The ONLY way is to buy cartel packs with real money or reward someone on GTN who used real money to obtain (P2W)

 

My gaming experience has been diminished because of it

P2W has robbed me of a in game experience I should be able to experience and value for the value of my subscription and time alone.

 

Cant say it any more straight forward then that to make it clear

If you still fail to understand why Im against it

well that your issue then as its been explained twice now