Guild Ship Frameworks and PVP Flagging

[Infernixx]

The crafting method is the PvE route. You do operations to get mats.

 

Now its radically overpriced, but I agree with Brewski that if the prices are brought down to a reasonable level, it works just fine as an incentive to do operations and flashpoints.

 

I see crafting as the catch-all 3rd category. I say this because the mats that are needed are level 50 mats that are easily attained by anyone at max level. And considering the amount of mat that are required to make even a single Encryption(3 Synthetic Energy Matrix, 6 Alien Data Cube, 6 Biometric Crystal Alloy, 3 Rakata Energy Node), the two paths aren't anywhere near being equal.

 

According to what I've read from the stream notes, the raid group that downs a Commander gets an entire Encryption PER raid member, capping out at 12.

 

So, on one hand, you have a PVP-based path that gets you 8-12 Encryptions per Commander kill and a Crafting Path that will require you to farm old 50 Operations to make one Encryption.

 

The two paths are obscenely imbalanced.

[Daekarus]

You're asking for PvP content to become PvE content. You clearly don't understand that the content was not designed with you in mind.

 

Actually that's the entire point. Why design PvP content and put it on PvE servers that people specifically chose because they don't like that type of content? It makes no sense. That's like making a character on a PvE server because you want to play OWPvP.

[Daekarus]

I see crafting as the catch-all 3rd category. I say this because the mats that are needed are level 50 mats that are easily attained by anyone at max level. And considering the amount of mat that are required to make even a single Encryption(3 Synthetic Energy Matrix, 6 Alien Data Cube, 6 Biometric Crystal Alloy, 3 Rakata Energy Node), the two paths aren't anywhere near being equal.

 

According to what I've read from the stream notes, the raid group that downs a Commander gets an entire Encryption PER raid member, capping out at 12.

 

So, on one hand, you have a PVP-based path that gets you 8-12 Encryptions per Commander kill and a Crafting Path that will require you to farm old 50 Operations to make one Encryption.

 

The two paths are obscenely imbalanced.

Thank you. Maybe now people will understand what the problem is. When I said orders of magnitude I meant it.

[Vandicus]

I see crafting as the catch-all 3rd category. I say this because the mats that are needed are level 50 mats that are easily attained by anyone at max level. And considering the amount of mat that are required to make even a single Encryption(3 Synthetic Energy Matrix, 6 Alien Data Cube, 6 Biometric Crystal Alloy, 3 Rakata Energy Node), the two paths aren't anywhere near being equal.

 

According to what I've read from the stream notes, the raid group that downs a Commander gets an entire Encryption PER raid member, capping out at 12.

 

So, on one hand, you have a PVP-based path that gets you 8-12 Encryptions per Commander kill and a Crafting Path that will require you to farm old 50 Operations to make one Encryption.

 

The two paths are obscenely imbalanced.

 

And I think you'll find most people agree that the crafting path is currently poorly balanced in regards to price.

 

However, the crafting path is less of a catch-all third option than you imagine. Pure PvPers and RPers don't do operations. much like pure PvErs don't do PvP. Anything involving and requiring raid mats is PvE oriented.

[Vandicus]

Actually that's the entire point. Why design PvP content and put it on PvE servers that people specifically chose because they don't like that type of content? It makes no sense. That's like making a character on a PvE server because you want to play OWPvP.

 

So the logical course of action is to remove the Commanders and warzones and Outlaws Den from PvE servers.

 

Because the logical course of action sure as hell isn't making PvP and its incentives all PvE. That'd be like demanding raid mats and item drops come from warzones on PvP servers.

[Zoom_VI]

Dude you realize the very fact that commanders exist will cause conflict, even if they are put in a PvE zone.

 

Why? Because commanders are a limited resource that only one guild can take advantage of at a time. To win at conquest you have to get ahead of the other guilds. And if another guild is getting to commanders first, then the only way for me to get ahead is to find a way to stop them from getting the commanders.

 

Once that conclusion is drawn, don't think for a second that putting the commander in a PvE zone will stop anything.

 

I could post healers at commanders to heal the commander, or if I can't do that I could have tanks taunt the commander to try to wipe the other guild, or I could have some stealthers drag mobs in while the other group is fighting, and then stealth out after some AoE put them into combat with the dragged in mobs, I could have jug/guardians sit around and intercede to the other guild's tanks to cause them to lose threat and wipe, I could have flagged people run in to see if I can get members of your raid to flag and then attack.

 

Or we could make it a PvP zone, where if anyone tried to pull those stunts, you could just kill them and get back to fighting the commander.

[Daekarus]

So the logical course of action is to remove the Commanders and warzones and Outlaws Den from PvE servers.

 

Because the logical course of action sure as hell isn't making PvP and its incentives all PvE. That'd be like demanding raid mats and item drops come from warzones on PvP servers.

 

If they make the PvE option costs reasonable I don't see a problem with that. Of course, if they make the PvE option competitive I don't think they need to change anything else.

[Infernixx]

And I think you'll find most people agree that the crafting path is currently poorly balanced in regards to price.

 

However, the crafting path is less of a catch-all third option than you imagine. Pure PvPers and RPers don't do operations. much like pure PvErs don't do PvP. Anything involving and requiring raid mats is PvE oriented.

 

If it was level 55 mats, I'd agree. But old 50 raids? People 4man that stuff these days. Aside from Pylons in EV, the Eternals before Soa and the factory puzzle in KP, 50-level content is face-roll.

 

Give the PVEers a path that's centered around lvl 55 Operations/FP content.

 

Here's a novel idea: Sell Encryptions for 200-400 Elite Comms and give that Commendation some value again. Want to see people queuing up for 16man OPs and HM FPs endlessly again? Do this and it'll run non-stop.

[Infernixx]

If they make the PvE option costs reasonable I don't see a problem with that. Of course, if they make the PvE option competitive I don't think they need to change anything else.

 

Any real lvl 55 PVE option to Encryptions would be welcome. I don't do PVP and I don't think asking us to farm old 50 content endlessly to make 'one' Encryption is the right path to take.

[Vandicus]

If it was level 55 mats, I'd agree. But old 50 raids? People 4man that stuff these days. Aside from Pylons in EV, the Eternals before Soa and the factory puzzle in KP, 50-level content is face-roll.

 

Give the PVEers a path that's centered around lvl 55 Operations/FP content.

 

Here's a novel idea: Sell Encryptions for 200-400 Elite Comms and give that Commendation some value again. Want to see people queuing up for 16man OPs and HM FPs endlessly again? Do this and it'll run non-stop.

 

Pretty much agreed on all points.

 

A scaling system based on difficulty and level requirements(with the old level 50 Ops on SM being the slowest) would be ideal.

 

Making Elite Comms not worthless would be great.

 

The PvE incentives badly need some fixing right now.

[Zoom_VI]

Another thing I would like to point out in addition to my other post is that conquest is at its very core, a PvP system. If you can't stand PvP then you should just stop because conquest is PvP. Its where your guild tries to beat out other guilds, even if you remove all open world objective, you are still competing and people will find ways to use dirty tricks to get their guild ahead.

[Daekarus]

Another thing I would like to point out in addition to my other post is that conquest is at its very core, a PvP system. If you can't stand PvP then you should just stop because conquest is PvP. Its where your guild tries to beat out other guilds, even if you remove all open world objective, you are still competing and people will find ways to use dirty tricks to get their guild ahead.

 

Competing I don't mind, it's the dirty tricks that make me want to sign out. That nonsense has no more place in SWTOR than throwing dust in the face of a batter in baseball.

[Zoom_VI]

Competing I don't mind, it's the dirty tricks that make me want to sign out. That nonsense has no more place in SWTOR than throwing dust in the face of a batter in baseball.

 

Then you should write a thread asking for the deletion of conquest. Because its a open competition on the internet.

 

Also if all the teams are throwing dust at the other team's batter, then it is just part of the game.

Edited August 7, 2014 by Zoom_VI

[Infernixx]

Another thing I would like to point out in addition to my other post is that conquest is at its very core, a PvP system. If you can't stand PvP then you should just stop because conquest is PvP. Its where your guild tries to beat out other guilds, even if you remove all open world objective, you are still competing and people will find ways to use dirty tricks to get their guild ahead.

 

Guild Conquest is a competition, not PVP exclusively. It's a combination of PVE and PVP and Crafting.

 

You can 'call' it PVP if you like, but if you do, you'll have to explain the logic behind including Operations and HM FPs and Heroic quests and all the Conquest quests regarding killing NPCs on the worlds and all the crafting stuff into a 'pvp' system.

 

I mean, I can sit here and say that it's a PVE system since I'm competing against time and the game itself for my Conquest points. Sure, our Guilds are competing against each other, but until I can Flash Bang the <You Aint Sith> Guild and CC it and disable the entire Guild for a short while, I'm afraid I can't call it 'pvp.'

[Daekarus]

Then you should write a thread asking for the deletion of conquest. Because its a open competition on the internet.

 

Also if all the teams are throwing dust at the other team's batter, then it is just part of the game.

Ah, so you're saying that people don't really care about the spirit of competition and fair play, but more just about winning no matter what they have to do? Meh, opt me the hell out of that. That's not a game any longer, that's just an experiment to see who will sink the lowest. I hope they don't carry that attitude over to real life.

[Zoom_VI]

Guild Conquest is a competition, not PVP exclusively. It's a combination of PVE and PVP and Crafting.

 

You can 'call' it PVP if you like, but if you do, you'll have to explain the logic behind including Operations and HM FPs and Heroic quests and all the Conquest quests regarding killing NPCs on the worlds and all the crafting stuff into a 'pvp' system.

 

I mean, I can sit here and say that it's a PVE system since I'm competing against time and the game itself for my Conquest points. Sure, our Guilds are competing against each other, but until I can Flash Bang the <You Aint Sith> Guild and CC it and disable the entire Guild for a short while, I'm afraid I can't call it 'pvp.'

 

I think you missed my last post. The point is conquest revolves around getting ahead, that very fact means that it brings on all of the characteristics that you denounce. The quoted post below just demonstrates one way to bring in dirty tricks into a pure PvE environment. And honestly I'd take a honest PvP shootout over the alternative.

 

Commanders are a limited resource that only one guild can take advantage of at a time. To win at conquest you have to get ahead of the other guilds. And if another guild is getting to commanders first, then the only way for me to get ahead is to find a way to stop them from getting the commanders.

 

Once that conclusion is drawn, don't think for a second that putting the commander in a PvE zone will stop anything.

 

I could post healers at commanders to heal the commander, or if I can't do that I could have tanks taunt the commander to try to wipe the other guild, or I could have some stealthers drag mobs in while the other group is fighting, and then stealth out after some AoE put them into combat with the dragged in mobs, I could have jug/guardians sit around and intercede to the other guild's tanks to cause them to lose threat and wipe, I could have flagged people run in to see if I can get members of your raid to flag and then attack.

 

Or we could make it a PvP zone, where if anyone tried to pull those stunts, you could just kill them and get back to fighting the commander.

[JediMasterSLC]

I wonder if it won't be possible to lure the commanders out of the PvP Zone or at least close enough for all the ranged users in the group to stay outside the PvP area, thus not flagging them for PvP.

 

Because it seemed like in the stream they could kite him quite close to the area where the PvP zone starts.

 

That said, I don't care either way. I'm fine with the Commanders being in PvP areas. It's not like there will be enemy guilds standing watch 24/7 on all the commanders on each server.

 

I could've sworn that when the dev attacked the commander on stream, he was immediately PvP flagged. The timer was already counting down, but it looked like he got flagged before the 10 seconds were up when he attacked the commander.

[Infernixx]

I think you missed my last post. The point is conquest revolves around getting ahead, that very fact means that it brings on all of the characteristics that you denounce. The quoted post below just demonstrates one way to bring in dirty tricks into a pure PvE environment. And honestly I'd take a honest PvP shootout over the alternative.

 

Well, like I said, you can call it PVP if you like, but that doesn't necessarily make it so. PVE has long had a tradition of servers listing their most 'progressed guilds' on server forum pages, so the idea of a Leader Board for progression isn't all that different from what we've always done. I don't consider those progression posts to be PVP and I don't consider Guild Conquest to be PVP either. But, by all means, call it whatever makes you feel better, I guess.

[Daekarus]

Well, like I said, you can call it PVP if you like, but that doesn't necessarily make it so. PVE has long had a tradition of servers listing their most 'progressed guilds' on server forum pages, so the idea of a Leader Board for progression isn't all that different from what we've always done. I don't consider those progression posts to be PVP and I don't consider Guild Conquest to be PVP either. But, by all means, call it whatever makes you feel better, I guess.

 

I think what he's getting at is that if your player base has devolved to the point where they'd do just about any slimy thing they can think of to mess with people they're competing with (sort of like the Nancy Kerrigan thing years ago) then even open world PvE can be a miserable experience. I've seen mob stealing, but my impression of the PvE culture on my server is overall quite positive, and I've seen no indication they've sunk to that level of pond scum.

[Zoom_VI]

Ah, so you're saying that people don't really care about the spirit of competition and fair play, but more just about winning no matter what they have to do? Meh, opt me the hell out of that. That's not a game any longer, that's just an experiment to see who will sink the lowest. I hope they don't carry that attitude over to real life.

 

See and that's why I think the PvP zoning of the commanders, and the PvP aspects of conquest are a good thing. Because then other guilds just become another boss to kill in order to further conquest, no different than having to kill the commander. This is why I always prefer to play on the RP-PvP server, because I don't have to deal with people trying to trick me into flagging, or people healing my mobs, I just have another thing to kill.

 

In a PvP competition the only people you have to worry about backstabbing you, are the operatives. In a PvE competition, backstabbing and dirty tricks can come from any quarter.

Edited August 7, 2014 by Zoom_VI

[Pjats]

Frankly, I'm glad Bioware offered two paths to achieving the same ends, neither of which requires you to play the other style. To get upgrades to your guild flagship you can do one of these, or a combination of both.

 

• Open World PvP objectives
  
• Craft
  

 

If they can bring the cost to craft frameworks into a more reasonable level, we should be all set.

You mean there are three ways to get the materials:

 

• Killing Commanders
  
• Craft
  
• Guild Conquest
  

[Daekarus]

See and that's why I think the PvP zoning of the commanders, and the PvP aspects of conquest are a good thing. Because then other guilds just become another boss to kill in order to further conquest, no different than having to kill the commander. This is why I always prefer to play on the RP-PvP server, because I don't have to deal with people trying to trick me into flagging, or people healing my mobs, I just have another thing to kill.

 

In a PvP competition the only people you have to worry about backstabbing you, are the operatives. In a PvE competition, backstabbing and dirty tricks can come from any quarter.

 

You have no idea how ironic it is that I should be saying this, but I think you're overestimating how scummy people are.

[Infernixx]

Also, can I just say that the whole Crafting aspect to Guild Conquest items is overly complicated?

 

Let's say I'm a crafter and I want to help with Guild Conquest. Great, here's what I need to do:

 

I get to craft some sort of special item (Infantry Supply Kits, Starship Weapons, Armored Vehicles, Crystal Capacitors, Holocron of Strategy) that we get to learn to make in 2.9 that gives me 500 Conquest points. Awesome. What do we do with it now that it's crafted?

 

Well, we turn around and combine the one we made with one of the other four and make an Invasion Forces item. Awesome, what's that used for?

 

Why, we take that Invasion Forces item and combine it with a metric buttload of lvl 50 rare crafting mats and make a Dark Project.

 

Damn, okay, now what does that do? Nothing! Then what do we use it for?? It can be traded in for a single Encryption and we need 100-300 Encryptions to unlock a single Guild Ship room.

 

Everyone get all that? We make 5 Crafting items and combine them into one. Then we combine that new item with some rare lvl 50 mats and make a new item and 'that' item is used to get a single item of which we need 100-300 to open a single Guild Room, of which there are fifteen.

 

Total Crafting time and mats for a single Dark Project? 3 Synthetic Energy Matrix, 6 Alien Data Cubes, 6 Biometric crystal alloys, 3 Rakata energy Nodes and an Invasion Forces crafted item which consists of a buttload of sub-50 crafting mats. And 5 hours.

 

For one Dark Project/Encryption.

Edited August 7, 2014 by Infernixx

[Daekarus]

Also, can I just say that the whole Crafting aspect to Guild Conquest items is overly complicated?

 

Let's say I'm a crafter and I want to help with Guild Conquest. Great, here's what I need to do:

 

I get to craft some sort of special item (Infantry Supply Kits, Starship Weapons, Armored Vehicles, Crystal Capacitors, Holocron of Strategy) that we get to learn to make in 2.9 that gives me 500 Conquest points. Awesome. What do we do with it now that it's crafted?

 

Well, we turn around and combine the one we made with one of the other four and make an Invasion Forces item. Awesome, what's that used for?

 

Why, we take that Invasion Forces item and combine it with a metric buttload of lvl 50 rare crafting mats and make a Dark Project.

 

Damn, okay, now what does that do? Nothing! Then what do we use it for?? It can be traded in for a single Encryption and we need 100-300 Encryptions to unlock a single Guild Ship room.

 

Everyone get all that? We make 5 Crafting items and combine them into one. Then we combine that new item with some rare lvl 50 mats and make a new item and 'that' item is used to get a single item of which we need 100-300 to open a single Guild Room, of which there are fifteen.

 

Total Crafting time and mats for a single Dark Project? 3 Synthetic Energy Matrix, 6 Alien Data Cubes, 6 Biometric crystal alloys, 3 Rakata energy Nodes and an Invasion Forces crafted item which consists of a buttload of sub-50 crafting mats. And 5 hours.

 

For one Dark Project/Encryption.

 

Kind of looks like we're being trolled, doesn't it?

[Zoom_VI]

I've seen mob stealing, but my impression of the PvE culture on my server is overall quite positive, and I've seen no indication they've sunk to that level of pond scum.

 

Yes but see you have such a nice experience (honestly I have too) on the strength of your community's character. However community character can't be enforced, like a gang springing up in a peaceful neighborhood, bad apples can get in at any time, and in a PvE environment there is nothing you can do to counter them. You can't touch them. You can't stop that tank from stealing, you can't stop that healer from healing that mob.

 

 

PvP however gives a method of enforcement. They can't mess with you because doing so means they have deal with the consequences. Dead people can't grief.