SW:TOR 4th biggest Sub MMO in the world

[Arkerus]

Want to be technical, ok be my guest.

 

Server side whatever system you do you have to store and transmit the item position, be it relative to a hook or to a room or a building.

 

Then for each item on top of the above requirements for a an object with a simpler 3d positioning, with hooks you also need at least:

• Item hook size parameter
  
• Item hook type parameter
  

 

With only these simple sample it's already using more I/O and data storage, server side, than a simpler 3D system.

 

So please enlighten us of how it would save IO on the back end?

Because honestly I'm puzzled here.

 

This isn't minecraft. Its not procedural. Plus something like minecraft uses much simpler system because of its scale. They would all be actors, like player character and would have to report positional information (x everyone in the room) instead of being loaded to the client once (since they can be moved in real time).

 

AND...

 

At the end of the day you have to consider the players. This is a largely a design decision (and I've said that multiple times). You might think you're picasso and you want to put a hat on a vase and show your friends, but by and large they wanted a system a little more "in control". Neither you nor I know the real implications on the back end and based on statements they made a CHOICE. Its designed for a largely casual player base. They want people to hop in a use it. Its intuitive, its easy to grasp. Its also fits withing THEIR rules. And as their product you make a decision to use it or complain about it (and then use it).

 

Cost is a wash. I've done enough with development to know its not really a cost factor at all. The argument about it being "cheaper" is largely BS because the system doesn't exist. Both had to be built and any developer worth his salt will give you the pros and cons of each but largely they are the same for a skilled employee.

 

Honestly, I don't care if you want to build a wall out of space couches but you can't. There are a myriad of decision criteria that went into this. Once all the factors were weighed, this system was the choice. THe MMO forums are filled with conjecture and BS and your noise about "cost" and time is part of the problem.

Edited July 22, 2014 by Arkerus

[Deewe]

This isn't minecraft. Its not procedural. Plus something like minecraft uses much simpler system because of its scale. They would all be actors, like player character and would have to report positional information (x everyone in the room) instead of being loaded to the client once (since they can be moved in real time).

Minecrfaft is irrelevant.

 

Then be it for free item placement or hook systems in both you have to report characters positioning in the building and check for collision detection with items. Although you did no point at how hooks would lighten the load on the sever side with hooks.

 

I'll give you this with hooks as you can only change 2 axis versus 3. The devs could have made it so the system stores and handles one less. Still then they'd need to use the hook 3rd axis as reference for positioning the item.

Finally I doubt they closed the door to 3d positioning ever and as such kept 3d axis.

 

In the end at least the same if not more I/O handling for hooks especially server side.

Edited July 22, 2014 by Deewe

[Arkerus]

Minecrfaft is irrelevant.

 

Then be it for free item placement or hook systems in both you have to report characters positioning in the building and check for collision detection with items. Although you did no point at how hooks would lighten the load on the sever side with hooks.

 

I'll give you this with hooks as you can only change 2 axis versus 3. The devs could have made it so the system stores and handles one less. Still then they'd need to use the hook 3rd axis as reference for positioning the item.

Finally I doubt they closed the door to 3d positioning ever and as such kept 3d axis.

 

In the end at least the same if not more I/O handling for hooks especially server side.

 

Free positioning would probably not be loaded to the client on load and stored, it would probably be reported in real time since is can be moved to infinite positions (not really infinite but you get it). It's why bodies cause so many issues. This game doesn't handle independent objects well. Or how about the ship chair crashing the ship? Too many objects. Crash.

 

Hooks would be reported to the client once and then on update.

 

BUT...we don't know the real back end story on this game and we never will.

 

I already touched on the other points. Kinda take it or leave it. My original point was you throwing around like costs like they are facts and we both know that's BS.

Edited July 22, 2014 by Arkerus

[Deewe]

Free positioning would probably not be loaded to the client on load and stored, it would probably be reported in real time since is can be moved to infinite positions (not really infinite but you get it). It's why bodies cause so many issues. This game doesn't handle independent objects well. Or how about the ship chair crashing the ship? Too many objects. Crash.

 

Hooks would be reported to the client once and then on update.

 

BUT...we don't know the real back end story on this game and we never will.

 

I already touched on the other points. Kinda take it or leave it. My original point was you throwing around like costs like they are facts and we both know that's BS.

You don't need constantly checking 3d parameters server side more than you need with the hook system.

 

To reduce network bandwidth what you should do is only upload the positions only once the layout is saved and check it against servers parameters to prevent hacking/exploiting.

 

That being said, packet analysis have shown that SWTOR handled characters positioning very badly. At least used to.

instead of having the client only sending the parameter what changed it kept sending everything.

 

I don't know for the ship but it looks more like a bug between the cutscene and interactive items like chairs, certainly mostly why we won't get chairs we can sit on but will use separate animations for that. But I digress.

 

So far you did not prove there will be more I/O server side.

[LordArtemis]

 

2. We are not privy to any of the internal costs and scheduling. You have no clue what anything costs. This game could have an absurdly large margin or it could be thin, but rest assured it is not in the red.

 

...just wanted to point out, we do not know if they are operating in the black either. It could very well be "in the red" for all we know, if we don't know the costs we most CERTAINLY do not know the bottom line.

 

3. The doom and gloom and argument is effectively dead. No rational company shuts down a game that is successful. You can argue what successful means to YOU, but to a company, it means sustainable revenue (and from that profit). This game would have been shut down a long time ago if the revenue stream was not sustainable. The next person who utters anything like "this game will be shut down in a year" or similar, gets an instant trip to the ignore list.

 

Games are and have been closed when they are doing well in some cases. I suppose it depends on your definition of "doing well", since that is speculative, but folks have leaked that CoH we pulling a profit for NCSoft but was closed anyway. It was not meeting expectations that NCSoft had set forth, and they obviously decided to invest elsewhere.

 

I can't find any way to confirm this information, so I post it and let folks come to their own conclusions...

 

 

- CoH was profitable even before they converted to Free to Play but were even more so after the conversion.

- The studio’s total annual operating cost was 4 million USD. They grossed 12 million in revenue annually.

- NCSoft paid $8 million USD to buy CoH. They wanted $80 million USD to sell it. They only value it at $3 million for tax purposes.

- CoH had a high retention rate. Subscribers had a stick rate of 95-98%.

- NCSoft has no plans for a CoH 2. Paragon wanted to do it but NCSoft was growing ever more uncomfortable with a Superhero IP, worried that it wouldn't work in today's market.

- Brian Clayton tried to orchestrate a management buyout of Paragon starting over a year ago because it became progressively more difficult to deal with NCSoft. They had created a Kickstarter page and a campaign video, but it never went to press.

- They (Paragon) had a second project in the works. It was a compromise to not being able to make CoH 2. It was the show "Lost" meets Minecraft. You crash-landed on an island and you were able to build your own fortress and weapons. You teamed up with other players to tackle the mysteries of the island.

- NCSoft tried to work with Paragon, they really did. But the profits were not what they needed to be, and CoH/Paragon were the weak link in NCsoft's lineup moving forward.

 

Now, I would point out that simply because this comes from an employee (if that is the case...no way to confirm that to my knowledge) even that doesn't mean it's accurate...employees are capable of being dishonest as well.

 

So, in the end one can accept or reject this, but it seems to be accepted that CoH was closed because it was a superhero MMO, something that NCSoft no longer had faith in for the long term.

 

The revenue stream is obviously strong right now...but has fallen over the last 6 months. I am of the opinion that it is NOT sustainable. I am NOT claiming that that means the title will close.

 

...just in case that part of your comment was directed at me Arkerus.

 

And frankly Arkerus your posts are filled with as much conjecture as anyone else.

Edited July 22, 2014 by LordArtemis

[Arkerus]

You don't need constantly checking 3d parameters server side more than you need with the hook system.

 

To reduce network bandwidth what you should do is only upload the positions only once the layout is saved and check it against servers parameters to prevent hacking/exploiting.

 

That being said, packet analysis have shown that SWTOR handled characters positioning very badly. At least used to.

instead of having the client only sending the parameter what changed it kept sending everything.

 

I don't know for the ship but it looks more like a bug between the cutscene and interactive items like chairs, certainly mostly why we won't get chairs we can sit on but will use separate animations for that. But I digress.

 

So far you did not prove there will be more I/O server side.

 

There is no conversation with you. What you provided ISN'T how live objects work. If you want them to be bounded they have to report in real time because they are dynamic bodies. If you don't want that, you don't get collision detection. Do you want to pass through your table like its air? If you want to put a hat on a vase they have to be joined, which is additional data. Its so ridiculously complex with free bodies. Hell, that's why SWG had you do it with command lines! But that said, we don't know what they would have done anyway. I think its time you read the rest of my post and come back down to Earth where the rest of us live.

Edited July 22, 2014 by Arkerus

[Arkerus]

...just wanted to point out, we do not know if they are operating in the black either. It could very well be "in the red" for all we know, if we don't know the costs we most CERTAINLY do not know the bottom line.

 

 

 

Games are and have been closed when they are doing well in some cases. I suppose it depends on your definition of "doing well", since that is speculative, but folks have leaked that CoH we pulling a profit for NCSoft but was closed anyway. It was not meeting expectations that NCSoft had set forth, and they obviously decided to invest elsewhere.

 

I can't find any way to confirm this information, so I post it and let folks come to their own conclusions...

 

 

- CoH was profitable even before they converted to Free to Play but were even more so after the conversion.

- The studio’s total annual operating cost was 4 million USD. They grossed 12 million in revenue annually.

- NCSoft paid $8 million USD to buy CoH. They wanted $80 million USD to sell it. They only value it at $3 million for tax purposes.

- CoH had a high retention rate. Subscribers had a stick rate of 95-98%.

- NCSoft has no plans for a CoH 2. Paragon wanted to do it but NCSoft was growing ever more uncomfortable with a Superhero IP, worried that it wouldn't work in today's market.

- Brian Clayton tried to orchestrate a management buyout of Paragon starting over a year ago because it became progressively more difficult to deal with NCSoft. They had created a Kickstarter page and a campaign video, but it never went to press.

- They (Paragon) had a second project in the works. It was a compromise to not being able to make CoH 2. It was the show "Lost" meets Minecraft. You crash-landed on an island and you were able to build your own fortress and weapons. You teamed up with other players to tackle the mysteries of the island.

- NCSoft tried to work with Paragon, they really did. But the profits were not what they needed to be, and CoH/Paragon were the weak link in NCsoft's lineup moving forward.

 

Now, I would point out that simply because this comes from an employee (if that is the case...no way to confirm that to my knowledge) even that doesn't mean it's accurate...employees are capable of being dishonest as well.

 

So, in the end one can accept or reject this, but it seems to be accepted that CoH was closed because it was a superhero MMO, something that NCSoft no longer had faith in for the long term.

 

The revenue stream is obviously strong right now...but has fallen over the last 6 months. I am of the opinion that it is NOT sustainable. I am NOT claiming that that means the title will close.

 

...just in case that part of your comment was directed at me Arkerus.

 

And frankly Arkerus your posts are filled with as much conjecture as anyone else.

 

Its not in the red. Let's not be obtuse here. Sorry man, but I don't work in conjecture. I use data that has been provided to us in one way or another.

 

As for CoH, let's try to keep the conversation here. I don't know what CoH was pulling in but you obviously understand "expectations." Some decision aren't made on red and black. Not enough black? Cut it.

 

Not the case here (consistent revenue reports, etc)...and if SWTOR closes tomorrow, I'll eat my shoe.

Edited July 22, 2014 by Arkerus

[LordArtemis]

Its not in the red. Let's not be obtuse here. Sorry man, but I don't work in conjecture. I use data that has been provided to us in one way or another.

 

Perhaps you should take your own advice Arkerus. I would speculate you are privy to the same information that everyone else is. If that is not the case and you have some inside info, then I offer my apologies and digress.

 

Otherwise you are speculating like everyone else.

 

Do I think it's more likely that they are operating in the black? Of course, that is the most sensible conclusion. Do I think it is likely this game will be shut down any time soon. Naturally not.

 

But that is speculative. A smart bet certainly, but speculative none the less.

 

BTW, games are known to operate in the red for a time period after launch and still be fine in the long run. Overall performance is the key...not every game has to pull a profit early on to still be considered viable.

Edited July 22, 2014 by LordArtemis

[ZionHalcyon]

The only real conclusion that anyone can make is the data that we have. The game IS making money and has been since the F2P conversion. I see a ton of speculation in this thread (both bad and good). That's all well and good and drives an interesting conversation. Some folks though...yikes. Not very connected to the real world.

 

The most troubling comments I see is that people say "well, obviously that money is not being reinvested back into the game."

 

1. That's absurd to begin with because no company on the planet NORMALLY reinvests 100% of the profits from a product unless there is some special case (or they are willing to take a loss for a long term gain). Projects are slated at a certain cost + overhead. Any more money beyond that is considered profit for the company. Budgets for the game go up and down depending on the budget and projects/upgrades needed for the game.

 

2. We are not privy to any of the internal costs and scheduling. You have no clue what anything costs. This game could have an absurdly large margin or it could be thin, but rest assured it is not in the red.

 

3. The doom and gloom and argument is effectively dead. No rational company shuts down a game that is successful. You can argue what successful means to YOU, but to a company, it means sustainable revenue (and from that profit). This game would have been shut down a long time ago if the revenue stream was not sustainable. The next person who utters anything like "this game will be shut down in a year" or similar, gets an instant trip to the ignore list.

 

You're just way off base and the opposite spectrum of bias, with your "everything is rosy and anyone who complains deserves to be yelled at" line of commentary.

 

1) You make a stupid strawman argument, now claiming people who are mad at money not being re-invested into the game are claiming that they want ALL of the money re-invested into the game; that's so off base and blatantly wrong its not even funny. However, since all we have to go on is perception, it does not look good when you find out that SWTOR generates the 4th most revenue of sub based MMOs, and yet has this abhorrent release schedule that is overly painful for enough people to complain about it, even if you and a vocal handful are there to yell at anyone who dares to complain about the "almighty bioware".

 

2) You have a point here, but neither do you - its not as strong as you think. Learn this phrase well - PERCEPTION IS REALITY. It means that regardless of whatever the truth is, if people perceive you a certain way, then they will treat you according to their own perceptions, regardless of the truth, thereby making the truth wholly irrelevant. Case in point - Have a painful release schedule where major releases are spread out over 3 months, harder versions of existing raids are celebrated as their own updates, no additional story content has been added for people who want more of the 1-55 leveling experience since Makeb and in a very, very small dose Oricon, have all communication on lockdown until a week or two before a new update gets released to Test center, and on top of it have a report come out that your MMO that is doing all these things that are driving many subs who otherwise see great potential in the game insane is also earning the 4th most cash of all sub based mmos?

 

Only the homeriest of homers wearing triple thick rose-colored glasses and sipping spiked Kool-Aid isn't going to feel taken advantage of, and naturally wonder where in the hell all that money is going to. And only a huge arse would then confront those people who are having a natural reaction to hearing that and lecture them and belittle them for feeling that way.

 

3) Depicting it as "doom and gloom" is overgeneralizing, but its way too premature to declare victory and do your little happy dance. I agree what IS effectively dead for now is the whole "this game is going to die" which I found absurd from the get go. However, there is a major issue here looking at the numbers - lower subs spending lots of money in the cash shop. It means subs are spending gobs. What that also means is for each sub lost, EA/BioWare stands to lose a ton from the cash shop purchases those subs would spend on. They could potentially kill there golden goose and quickly if a swath of subs get fed up and leave. Its a very precarious position to be in, to depend on a smaller group of people to open their wallets while treating those customers poorly in some cases and keeping them in the dark in most cases.

 

 

 

If we can skip past all the bravado for a moment, I think BioWare has 2 huge issues facing them at the moment, feeding into the discontent.

 

1) Communication

2) Release schedule/quality.

 

 

You look at other MMOs, and how they inform and even hype major releases, sometimes even a year before release. How some of them even keep their fans updated every step of the way (DDO and LOTRO are pretty good at this). And then you look at the bastardized way SWTOR does it.

 

I honestly truly believe that they would have been better served to not do this Weird thing they started with Galactic Starfighter of releasing over 3 months, and instead hold off on Galactic Strongholds until their Free To Play access date, and release everything they plan on including all at once. Had that been the case, and had they started hyping and showing off the strongholds as they are right now and keeping that timing, I think that would have been a whole lot better and easier for fans to digest. Plus the update would feel more rich and put together, rather than this piecemeal approach of releasing some stuff to subs, then more of the same planned update a month later and hiding behind a "Preffered Player" launch, and then releasing the last bit of content a month after that, hiding behind a "free to play player" launch. I mean, who even does that? I get a short period time where Subs get exclusive access to everything, like a 2 week head start - DDO does stuff like that. But essentially releasing a singular major update over 3 updates and hyping it like they do after having complete radio silence for months on end prior? Just terrible.

 

I think if Bioware would just be more open with people, and just handle their releases better, even if it meant fewer of them in a year, it would improve perception dramatically. Hell, I'd be down with them scrapping the 9 week release schedule idea and moving to a 13 week release schedule (4 updates a year) if it meant getting rid of the "Hanukkah" Releases of the same content bled out slow over 3 months in a row.

 

Combine that with more Story Questing from those updates to lead people out of whatever the last major level/planet story expansion was and into the next one the following year (by story questing, I mean like 1-55, even if its faction-based, and NOT story via Flashpoints/Ops or daily areas), and just by doing that and what they are already doing now, and people will be MUCH happier with the game and its direction.

 

But the frustration level is high because of how Bioware handles their releases, handles their communication, handles the high demand for more story questing content by not even acknowledging it, let alone adding more to it, and then on top of it you find out that a lack of funding isn't even a legit excuse for it?

 

People have a right to be angry, and no, telling them to get lost and play another game isn't the answer, even though that's all some seem to know how to say.

Edited July 22, 2014 by ZionHalcyon

[Arkerus]

Perhaps you should take your own advice Arkerus. I would speculate you are privy to the same information that everyone else is. If that is not the case and you have some inside info, then I offer my apologies and digress.

 

Otherwise you are speculating like everyone else.

 

Do I think it's more likely that they are operating in the black? Of course, that is the most sensible conclusion. Do I think it is likely this game will be shut down any time soon. Naturally not.

 

But that is speculative. A smart bet certainly, but speculative none the less.

 

Speculative? You're kidding right? Are you reading the same data I am? Apparently not. And even IF you want to make that argument and I say "technically" I am speculating, there is enough data to back up my claim. ugh.

 

I don't spew nonsense. If the game was revealed to be leaking cash like a colander leaks water, I would obviously sing a different tune, because that would be data we have.

Edited July 22, 2014 by Arkerus

[ZionHalcyon]

Perhaps you should take your own advice Arkerus. I would speculate you are privy to the same information that everyone else is. If that is not the case and you have some inside info, then I offer my apologies and digress.

 

Otherwise you are speculating like everyone else.

 

Do I think it's more likely that they are operating in the black? Of course, that is the most sensible conclusion. Do I think it is likely this game will be shut down any time soon. Naturally not.

 

But that is speculative. A smart bet certainly, but speculative none the less.

 

BTW, games are known to operate in the red for a time period after launch and still be fine in the long run. Overall performance is the key...not every game has to pull a profit early on to still be considered viable.

 

That's Arkerus - do as I say, not as I do...

[ZionHalcyon]

Speculative? You're kidding right? Are you reading the same data I am? Apparently not.

 

Hypocrite

[Arkerus]

Hypocrite

 

lol. OK buddy. Goodnight.

[LordArtemis]

-snip-

 

I don't think you can characterize his argument as "stupid", that's pretty rude and unfair IMO. Certainly not necessary. It stands on it's own merits.

 

Also, to be fair, there are folks that clearly posted things like "the game is dying" and "that money is not getting reinvested". So it's a fair response I think in some respects.

[LordArtemis]

Speculative? You're kidding right? Are you reading the same data I am? Apparently not. And even IF you want to make that argument and I say "technically" I am speculating, there is enough data to back up my claim. ugh.

 

I don't spew nonsense. If the game was revealed to be leaking cash like a colander leaks water, I would obviously sing a different tune, because that would be data we have.

 

Why are you being so dramatic? I'm not attacking you Arkerus by stating the obvious, nor does it reduce the likelihood you are correct in ASSUMING that the game is doing well.

 

Yes, I am reading the same data. Perhaps some data you are not reading. And I indicated how I read the data, my personal conclusions. So no...I'm not kidding.

 

Nor am I kidding when I say that being dramatic does not add any validity to your argument...there is no argument to make. You are speculating, and you are probably right.

 

...perhaps that is difficult for you to accept? I AGREE WITH YOU....there is enough data to back up your assumption that the game is doing well.

 

BTW, what you posted here could be considered nonsense based on the amount of drama, coupled with the lack of need to argue with someone who agrees with you.

 

Ready fire aim, eh? This is a bad habit of yours Arkerus.

[ZionHalcyon]

I don't think you can characterize his argument as "stupid", that's pretty rude and unfair IMO. Certainly not necessary. It stands on it's own merits.

 

Also, to be fair, there are folks that clearly posted things like "the game is dying" and "that money is not getting reinvested". So it's a fair response I think in some respects.

 

Just giving to him in turn with which he gives.

 

And pointing out he doesn't hold himself to the same standards he holds others to on the other side of the argument.

 

People who think they get special exemptions for being held to the same standard they hold others to seriously rub me the wrong way.

[ZionHalcyon]

Why are you being so dramatic? I'm not attacking you Arkerus by stating the obvious, nor does it reduce the likelihood you are correct in ASSUMING that the game is doing well.

 

Yes, I am reading the same data. Perhaps some data you are not reading. And I indicated how I read the data, my personal conclusions. So no...I'm not kidding.

 

Nor am I kidding when I say that being dramatic does not add any validity to your argument...there is no argument to make. You are speculating, and you are probably right.

 

...perhaps that is difficult for you to accept? I AGREE WITH YOU....there is enough data to back up your assumption that the game is doing well.

 

BTW, what you posted here could be considered nonsense based on the amount of drama, coupled with the lack of need to argue with someone who agrees with you.

 

Ready fire aim, eh? This is a bad habit of yours Arkerus.

 

Yep, that's my point. He really doesn't care about the argument I don't think. He gets his kicks from just unloading on people.

[Deewe]

**snip**

 

I think BioWare has 2 huge issues facing them at the moment, feeding into the discontent.

 

1) Communication

2) Release schedule/quality.

 

 

You look at other MMOs, and how they inform and even hype major releases, sometimes even a year before release. How some of them even keep their fans updated every step of the way (DDO and LOTRO are pretty good at this). And then you look at the bastardized way SWTOR does it.

 

**snip**

 

People have a right to be angry, and no, telling them to get lost and play another game isn't the answer, even though that's all some seem to know how to say.

Seems to me you nailed it.

 

Two things now.

 

 

I might be wrong but the few last posts from BioWare were more... candid and honest?

 

I mean it seems much better as instead of hiding in the shadows they answered openly about few key elements like hide slot toggle, legacy credit storage and such.

 

Now they'd need to go a bit further and explain why, for example, they're not adding credit sharing between alts in legacy storage.

 

Finally you are right, people are just expecting to be treated as in others MMO.

 

For now as a player I don't have a clue at ail whether there will be any content update past Strongholds.

For a MMO fan it's depressing.

[Deewe]

There is no conversation with you. What you provided ISN'T how live objects work. If you want them to be bounded they have to report in real time because they are dynamic bodies. If you don't want that, you don't get collision detection. Do you want to pass through your table like its air? If you want to put a hat on a vase they have to be joined, which is additional data. Its so ridiculously complex with free bodies. Hell, that's why SWG had you do it with command lines! But that said, we don't know what they would have done anyway. I think its time you read the rest of my post and come back down to Earth where the rest of us live.

First I though you where speaking about editing the housing, because if not your whole logic doesn't stands.

 

Then with SWG you had to do command line because no bloddy UI dev has been asked to set them in... clock ticking... a damn UI. If you don't know that you should stay away from 3D engines.

 

I tried to focus on one single point to eventually delve further but you kept kicking sideways.

As such I'll leave you to that.

 

Be safe.

[Tsillah]

...just wanted to point out, we do not know if they are operating in the black either. It could very well be "in the red" for all we know, if we don't know the costs we most CERTAINLY do not know the bottom line.

 

There is truth in what you say. We really don't know.

 

Of course if they are not in the black, after millions of box copies sold and at least many subs at start and lots of CM sales coming in place of it, if they are still in the red, they really did something wrong. I mean really wrong.

[ZionHalcyon]

Seems to me you nailed it.

 

Two things now.

 

 

I might be wrong but the few last posts from BioWare were more... candid and honest?

 

I mean it seems much better as instead of hiding in the shadows they answered openly about few key elements like hide slot toggle, legacy credit storage and such.

 

Now they'd need to go a bit further and explain why, for example, they're not adding credit sharing between alts in legacy storage.

 

Finally you are right, people are just expecting to be treated as in others MMO.

 

For now as a player I don't have a clue at ail whether there will be any content update past Strongholds.

For a MMO fan it's depressing.

 

More Candid and honest? Yes. But guess what? I believe tomorrow 2.9 hits the TC. So yeah, like I said, they don't finally open up until an update hits TC or a week or two before.

[ZionHalcyon]

There is truth in what you say. We really don't know.

 

Of course if they are not in the black, after millions of box copies sold and at least many subs at start and lots of CM sales coming in place of it, if they are still in the red, they really did something wrong. I mean really wrong.

 

Supposedly, EA has already made back their investment.

[TUXs]

Yep, that's my point. He really doesn't care about the argument I don't think. He gets his kicks from just unloading on people.

 

This is quite obvious in almost every one of his posts. Some people are just bitter antagonist.

[Htoob]

Once you've done all the class stories you want to do, and done a few raids, there is nothing to do in this game but play the CM. Logging into game is as exciting as watching paint dry. Another example of the inherent problem of themepark mmos. Roll class, level through zones(which you'll have no real reason to ever return) then lurk in your factions end game hub waiting for instance queues.

 

Just because the stats suggest a decent population, doesn't mean the game is any good. My sub is up in a month and that's it for me. If people want to keep playing and paying, that's fine, but as my old man used to say, some people would drink urine as long as it came in a bottle.

[Pathlight-]

Once you've done all the class stories you want to do, and done a few raids, there is nothing to do in this game but play the CM. Logging into game is as exciting as watching paint dry. Another example of the inherent problem of themepark mmos. Roll class, level through zones(which you'll have no real reason to ever return) then lurk in your factions end game hub waiting for instance queues.

 

Just because the stats suggest a decent population, doesn't mean the game is any good. My sub is up in a month and that's it for me. If people want to keep playing and paying, that's fine, but as my old man used to say, some people would drink urine as long as it came in a bottle.

 

This game can be played for a very long time if you don't spend 20 hours a day in front of a pc. I've been playing since launch, I'm still here and still very entertained by the game.

 

I only pvp and play gsf, level an alt once in a while and I am having a blast.