Should Bind on Pickup be removed (or changed)?

[Ratajack]

Dogs hear nothing but noise when scholars speak. And so, scholars should not speak of scholastica to dogs.

 

 

And yet, Leah speaks to you anyway.

[Jeweledleah]

Dogs hear nothing but noise when scholars speak. And so, scholars should not speak of scholastica to dogs.

 

Mea culpa. I will not trouble you further with such noise.

 

oh thank you for making me laugh. seriously, thank you. you are hilarious. the irony in your statements... gold. pure gold.

[Uruare]

And yet, Leah speaks to you anyway.

 

Witty, yet somehow lacking anything germane to the subject at hand.

 

Anything useful to say about BoP, or shall I simply regard you as Leah's token cheerleader?

[Draqsko]

I was discussing this in another thread with someone concerning legacy banks, here's my take:

 

Yes, there would have to be some cost associated with it. Another game I played had cash shop items that would remove the bound flag. But really with this game, it would just make more sense to make shells BoL while keeping solid pieces as BoP. The issue I'm trying to avoid here is the fact that, aside from weapon restrictions, removing BoP and converting it to BoL would favor some classes over others because of the way set bonuses work, and some armors.

 

To give an example: my friend has legacy gear for his sage, sorc, shadow and assassin. They are all DPS and all use the same set bonus. Aside from different sabers, earpieces, implants, and relics, he only has one set of gear for 4 characters. If BoP was converted to BoL for everything, he would only need 2 different sabers (regular saber and double bladed saber) for all of those characters. Right now, he needs the sabers as well as ear, implants and relics.

 

Changing BoP to BoL means he would get a complete set of gear once, and that would be it. His gear grind for 4 characters is done.

 

Now how do you justify doing this to other classes whose set bonuses or offhands don't quite mesh as well with both ACs? What would you change to balance that? What would you do to replace the credit sink you are losing with ripping mods, sometimes twice, to move it between alts?

 

Just answer those questions first, then we can rationally discuss this topic because you can't just change something like this, and expect it not to have some effect on the structure of the game.

[BuriDogshin]

again, the irony is so thick, you can cut it with a knife.

What I found ... definitive ... about the poster you we responding to is how she thinks her billing rate makes her opinions about SWTOR specially important. I would not be surprised if she'd be happier in a full-out pay-to-win game.

 

And as to us being dogs not worthy of her scholarly dissertations ... well, I do have a Doctorate degree from a respected university, does that count? But odds are some here are more edumacated than I am .

 

I find her amusing, even if I don't bother reading her low-contrast walls of text.

[BuriDogshin]

[sig:] Forum Moderators, I dedicate this to you. You poor, underappreciated sods.

... as if kissing up to the Mods would matter. LOL.

[Kunda]

Just answer those questions first, then we can rationally discuss this topic because you can't just change something like this, and expect it not to have some effect on the structure of the game.

 

I wager someone advocating for the outright removal of BoP items isn't concerned with how to fix possible complications with the change. They're looking for the most convenient play experience possible for themselves, not for the health of the game.

[Jeweledleah]

Witty, yet somehow lacking anything germane to the subject at hand.

 

Anything useful to say about BoP, or shall I simply regard you as Leah's token cheerleader?

 

oh god , stop. you making my cheeks hurt from laughing so hard. he doesn't even like me. I certainly don't like him. we just happen for once, sorta kinda agree on something. apparently. except I never said I was against changes to BoP system as a whole, only against changes that are not thought out... like ability to put BoP items into legacy storage, or just making everything bind on legacy without any other changes implemented.

 

I also never said they shouldn't try becasue its too hard or whatever else you decided I was saying.

 

since you brought up real life and technology... here's another example for you. about a century ago, Alexander Flemming discovered penicillin. and his discovery revolutionized how we deal with infections. except for one little problem. we humans do love to jump head first without considering all the consequences. so as a result, a mere century later after throwing antibiotics at every little thing? we are now stuck in a situation where bacteria is getting resistant to everything we can throw it, not to mention antibiotics have gotten so strong, with so many side effects that we can't even tell anymore what's worse - the cure or the disease. and all becasue we didn't carefully consider consequences before changing how we treat illnesses. and I'm pretty damn sure that there were multiple people who dismissed any possible drawbacks, becasue THEY didn't see negative effects short term.

 

history is FULL of examples like above. change is not bad. change for the sake of change is bad. headless, careless change is bad.

 

I wager someone advocating for the outright removal of BoP items isn't concerned with how to fix possible complications with the change. They're looking for the most convenient play experience possible for themselves, not for the health of the game.

 

I think you might just be correct in your assesment

Edited July 20, 2014 by Jeweledleah

[Alec_Fortescue]

It would be cool if used armor sets had some visual stuff added like wear, tear and rust. Players would be able to "refresh" their appearance by paying cc.

[Jeweledleah]

It would be cool if used armor sets had some visual stuff added like wear, tear and rust. Players would be able to "refresh" their appearance by paying cc.

 

I'd rather it was credits, not cc, personally. and I'd rather, personally - it worked a bit like appearance change and/or dye system. you can at will - add wear and tear to your armor or remove it. how feasibly would that be, I'm not sure, but if it were done with credits - it could add another, pretty fun credit sink to the game. I think.

[LordArtemis]

Well, wading through the waist deep hyperbole on both sides, I have decided to comment yet again but with a different slant this time.

 

I would love to see this gone. It is a nuisance. However, many of the things I would personally love to see would likely not be loved by the majority of players.

 

So I digress. If there is ever a day that we move past bound items, just like we moved past corpse looting, permadeath and the like that will be a happy day for me.

Edited July 20, 2014 by LordArtemis

[TravelersWay]

I would love to see this gone. It is a nuisance.

 

Agreed. It wouldn't be as much of an issue if the loot system was enhanced a bit more to ensure that the BoP loot that drops is something usable by the character it drops for. I got tired a long time ago of running flashpoints on my Force users and getting stuff that only my Troop/BH/IA/Smug can use, only to get the Force User stuff when I take any of those professions through the same flashpoint.

 

we are now stuck in a situation where bacteria is getting resistant to everything we can throw it, not to mention antibiotics have gotten so strong, with so many side effects that we can't even tell anymore what's worse - the cure or the disease.

 

Indeed. I just love how all these advertisements for drugs nowadays are 90% of the side affects and the drug is supposed to cure a headache. Note that one of the side effects is "May cause death." Gotta love it.

Edited July 21, 2014 by TravelersWay

[Prototypemind]

I was discussing this in another thread with someone concerning legacy banks, here's my take:

 

 

 

Changing BoP to BoL means he would get a complete set of gear once, and that would be it. His gear grind for 4 characters is done.

 

Now how do you justify doing this to other classes whose set bonuses or offhands don't quite mesh as well with both ACs? What would you change to balance that? What would you do to replace the credit sink you are losing with ripping mods, sometimes twice, to move it between alts?

 

Just answer those questions first, then we can rationally discuss this topic because you can't just change something like this, and expect it not to have some effect on the structure of the game.

 

To your quote of yourself, since when do Sages/Sorcs and Shadows/Assassins use the same set bonus? Changing BoP to B2L may make easier the trading of pieces, especially when you have extra set pieces that you pick up as a result of running so many Ops, but it doesn't change the fact that different ACs use different bonuses. Deception/Infiltration most certainly do not use the same bonus as Lightning/TK, nor does the Sorc/Sage Madness/Balance set benefit Sins/Shadows properly.

 

OT, but the aim you were presenting for a move to B2L doesn't have merit for the reasons you're touting. If your friend is really using one set bonus for all four toons then he's certainly losing DPS on at least two of the four.

Edited July 21, 2014 by Prototypemind

[Uruare]

oh god , stop. you making my cheeks hurt from laughing so hard. he doesn't even like me. I certainly don't like him. we just happen for once, sorta kinda agree on something. apparently. except I never said I was against changes to BoP system as a whole, only against changes that are not thought out... like ability to put BoP items into legacy storage, or just making everything bind on legacy without any other changes implemented.

 

I also never said they shouldn't try becasue its too hard or whatever else you decided I was saying.

 

since you brought up real life and technology... here's another example for you. about a century ago, Alexander Flemming discovered penicillin. and his discovery revolutionized how we deal with infections. except for one little problem. we humans do love to jump head first without considering all the consequences. so as a result, a mere century later after throwing antibiotics at every little thing? we are now stuck in a situation where bacteria is getting resistant to everything we can throw it, not to mention antibiotics have gotten so strong, with so many side effects that we can't even tell anymore what's worse - the cure or the disease. and all becasue we didn't carefully consider consequences before changing how we treat illnesses. and I'm pretty damn sure that there were multiple people who dismissed any possible drawbacks, becasue THEY didn't see negative effects short term.

 

history is FULL of examples like above. change is not bad. change for the sake of change is bad. headless, careless change is bad.

 

 

 

I think you might just be correct in your assesment

 

 

I guarantee you, zero deaths will be directly caused by anything done or not done to BoP.

 

Change for the sake of change can be bad. Would it benefit by having certain proxies modified to smoothly adjust for such a change? Sure.

 

I find it terribly amusing that you seem to think it's my job as a player to tell them how to fix it though. I have neither the detailed information nor the facilities to tell them how to go about it.

 

I do have all the requisite experience and information required to say 'I think X is stupid and changing it to Y would be a good idea'.

 

I've explained why I think so. Are my reasons selfish? I don't think they are. Efforts on their part to generate good will would not be wasted effort.

 

Is it feasible? I fail to see why not.

 

Is it reasonable? I think it is. Do they?

 

Will they do it? If so, it won't be because they cared what I thought anymore than not doing so will be because they care what you think.

 

In any case, I never advocated reckless change with neither oversight nor strategic consideration. Those elements are not mine to provide to them. Neither are they yours.

 

We both might have ideas, but neither of us need to fix the problem in order to say we think there's a problem about something, mm?

 

It is their job to first decide whether or not they agree that there isa problem and, if they do agree, then decide what to do about it and how.

 

I presume that if they coveted my specific input on how to fix the problem, they'd ask me for it.

 

That's not likely to happen, and I'm a-ok with that. They'll do what they do in the end, and I'll stay or go depending on whether I accept their decisions.

 

No amount of trying to discuss or argue anything with you impacts that.

 

So, be amused. If you've learned nothing for the banter, that's your damage. There was never any point beyond acquiring perspective no matter.

 

if you failed to manage even that, well. Can't help ya. Won't try.

Cheers, mate. Enjoy your gaming, 'ey?

[Uruare]

What I found ... definitive ... about the poster you we responding to is how she thinks her billing rate makes her opinions about SWTOR specially important. I would not be surprised if she'd be happier in a full-out pay-to-win game.

 

And as to us being dogs not worthy of her scholarly dissertations ... well, I do have a Doctorate degree from a respected university, does that count? But odds are some here are more edumacated than I am .

 

I find her amusing, even if I don't bother reading her low-contrast walls of text.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if your degree is in wishful thinking and your Alma mater was a cracker jack box. Incapable of digesting viewpoints you don't necessarily like or agree with, much?

 

I wish I found you at least amusing. Instead, I find you to be merely typical.

 

Good day.

[BuriDogshin]

I wouldn't be surprised if your degree is in wishful thinking and your Alma mater was a cracker jack box.

Sorry, dear, it's a J.D. from one of U.S. News & World Reports' Top 10 law schools. I went there after spending over a decade designing microprocessors for Intel Corp., among other things.

 

Keep trying to insult my intelligence, it always brings a smile to my face. You don't know me. You have no clue.

Edited July 21, 2014 by BuriDogshin

[Draqsko]

To your quote of yourself, since when do Sages/Sorcs and Shadows/Assassins use the same set bonus? Changing BoP to B2L may make easier the trading of pieces, especially when you have extra set pieces that you pick up as a result of running so many Ops, but it doesn't change the fact that different ACs use different bonuses. Deception/Infiltration most certainly do not use the same bonus as Lightning/TK, nor does the Sorc/Sage Madness/Balance set benefit Sins/Shadows properly.

 

OT, but the aim you were presenting for a move to B2L doesn't have merit for the reasons you're touting. If your friend is really using one set bonus for all four toons then he's certainly losing DPS on at least two of the four.

 

Actually, PvP Force Master and Stalker set bonus can be used by either AC.. it's the only class that's set up that way.

 

Force-master PvP:

2-piece :Reduces cooldown of Crushing Darkness or Mind Crush by 1.5 seconds. Crushing Darkness or Mind Crush damage heal you for 0.5% of max health.

4-piece: Increases range of Shock and Jolt or Project and Mind Snap by 5 meters.

Stalker PvP:

2-piece: Increases range of Force Slow and Jolt or Mind Snap by 5 meters.

4-piece: Increases Recklessness or Force Potency charges by 1 and reduces its cooldown by 15 seconds.

 

Pretty sure he uses the stalker set, because Recklessness charge is more DPS than increasing Project's range by 5m. As balance you don't even use Project all that much, and Mind crush is already healing you for 2% hp every time it crits. Also the cooldown on MC exactly matches it's DoT duration, therefore a reduced cooldown is pointless unless you're tab dotting, otherwise you'll clip your dot which is a DPS loss.

 

And also, the PvE Force-master set can work for Shadows and Sages and the Stalker set seems more geared for Deception/Infilitration than Balance.

 

Force-master PvE:

2-piece: Reduces cost of Lightning Strike and Force Lightning or Disturbance and Telekinetic Throw by 2 and reduces the cooldown on Polarity Shift or Mental Alacrity by 15 seconds.

4-piece: Affliction or Weaken Mind damage has a 30% chance to increase alacrity by 5% for 15 seconds. Cannot occur more than once every 20 seconds

Stalker PvE:

2-piece: Saber Strike hits restore 1 Force.

4-piece: Increases the critical chance of Thrash and Voltaic Slash or Double Strike and Clairvoyant Strike by 15%.

 

Now for example on my guardian, I have to deal with the medium vs. heavy armor, and part of a set bonus that's completely unusable by the other AC in the class (8% heal on guardian leap (Vindicator) and lower CD on UR (Weaponmaster/Challenger) for PvP, reduced min range on Saber Throw (Vindicator) and reduced CD and damage buff on Frenzy (Weaponmaster) for PvE. While I do use the 2pc Vindicator and 2pc Weaponmaster set bonus for PvE, that's only because Vigilance gets more out of a buff to Master Strike than it does with a buff to Bladestorm.

 

Consular/Inquisitor is the only one that set up so both ACs can benefit from using 1 set bonus. While other classes can use parts of the other AC set bonus, they can't get the full use out of the both 2 and 4 pc bonus.

[thewitchdoctor]

You have no clue.

 

Yeah, that poster is a special one.

[ivanhedgehog]

I couldn't care less either way. I have plenty of Legacy gear, plenty of creds, and play the content for other reasons. You and I have tons of creds, but not everyone else does. You mention that is a non-issue for you, but it does work as a credit sink for more casual players, who as you noted are the majority. The majority don't have freely flowing credits to burn on every little thing and the cost of pulling mods to send across their legacy does help to keep in game credit levels in check.

 

Like it or not, it serves a purpose. Even with viable suggestions like a means of converting BoP items into Legacy gear and having an appearance tab the majority have agreed that a high credit cost needs to be tied to those additions if they ever show, and that they see nothing wrong with such.

 

As to new subs getting Legacy gear, I did not believe that those who sub today still get the GSF sets that I was referencing. If there are others that I missed please correct me, but all other sets that I know of require reputation or certificates to acquire, meaning that there is work involved.

 

the solution to the credit sink problem would be for the galactic bank to tax 2% every month for any account that goes over 20 million. that would pull the credits from where they need to be pulled and free up room to make the games credit sinks be less annoying.

[ivanhedgehog]

All fair observations, if I do say. To me, the fee on mod pulling is peanuts, but it annoys me in about the same way you or color to in describing how you feel about waiting in a long, blargh line.

 

It's there just to be a hurdle for the sake of hurdles. A pointless credit sink that we have to put up with because they can't or won't figure out fun things for us to throw credits down the drain over.

snippage

As for being casual, well... it's what moat that desperately want to be hardcore call me. They're never wrong, just ask them. So it must be true.

 

you understand. gotta say that. for me its charging me to ride the speeder and blathering about "official use only" the money is nothing(at least on most planets) but its an annoying tiny credit sink that could have been done much better. save the galaxy but they wont give you an expense account. I can see Darth Vader shaking down stormtroopers for quarters to get the death star to Yavin.

[Jeweledleah]

Well, wading through the waist deep hyperbole on both sides, I have decided to comment yet again but with a different slant this time.

 

I would love to see this gone. It is a nuisance. However, many of the things I would personally love to see would likely not be loved by the majority of players.

 

So I digress. If there is ever a day that we move past bound items, just like we moved past corpse looting, permadeath and the like that will be a happy day for me.

 

I don't find perma death and BoP items in a way that they are done in SWTOR to be even remotely comparable, since second doesn't force you to start over from scratch. same goes for corpse looting.

 

that said... I still don't see how they can get rid of BoP system without full loot overhaul. should they? maybe? depends on how they do that.

 

I do think that they should tread very carefully IF they chose to do so. whenever you drastically overhaul something, and trust me - removing BoP is pretty drastic... as is removing all the little credit sinks we have that some people are soooooo annnoyed by - the ripples from that balance chance affect all parts of the game, not just the part that was changed. which is why I'm so bothered by the "just get rid of it and call it a day" approach (it sounds to me a bit like saying that we don't need crosswalks or traffic lights, since people ignore both all the time anyways :/ ).

 

at a bare minimum - how need/greed rolls work would have to be overhauled. like... making it impossible to roll need on anything that doesn't have your main stat AND is not meant for your currently active skill tree. I know of several games that do that, so its not an impossible code by any means, but they do use different engines, so this is a project that may end up taking longer than people think it would IF bioware chose to work on it.

 

the solution to the credit sink problem would be for the galactic bank to tax 2% every month for any account that goes over 20 million. that would pull the credits from where they need to be pulled and free up room to make the games credit sinks be less annoying.

 

personally, I would find that more annoying then current system. becasue currently - there's an illusion of choice. I don't technically have to take the speeder on majority of the planets, I could just ride my own if I wanted to. I could be very careful when I play and avoid majority of the repair bills and I still have to personally click that repair button, that travel button. mandatory tax on the other hand... seeing money disappear when I have performed NO action for them to do so? VERY annoying, at least to me.

Edited July 21, 2014 by Jeweledleah

[Styxx]

BoP is no longer relevant outside the one extra credit sink of pulling mods and putting them into the legacy gear to send them over.

 

Sure, everybody and their mother would jump and explain how credit sinks are needed ( 1 ) and how this will force ninja looting ( 2 )

 

1. In effect, for me to send already earned gear in the same time (either greed gear in some ops, or elite / ultimate comms gear) to one of my alts is either one extra full mods pull (30k or so per gear piece), or NONE, if I decide to use one legacy set for mirror classes, e.g: agent / scoundrel healer spec, or assassin / shadow tank.

 

2. As a result of the previous point, if I would want to ninja, I`d do it regardless, as I either have a too low cost anyway, or no cost whatsoever.

 

But people just love to overinflate things and talk with their backsides, while the truth is simpler: it is either NO credit sink, or a too small one to outweigh the ease of using legacy storage between 16+ alts.

Edited July 21, 2014 by Styxx

[Heat-Wave]

BoP is no longer relevant outside the one extra credit sink of pulling mods and putting them into the legacy gear to send them over.

 

Sure, everybody and their mother would jump and explain how credit sinks are needed ( 1 ) and how this will force ninja looting ( 2 )

 

1. In effect, for me to send already earned gear in the same time (either greed gear in some ops, or elite / ultimate comms gear) to one of my alts is either one extra full mods pull (30k or so per gear piece), or NONE, if I decide to use one legacy set for mirror classes, e.g: agent / scoundrel healer spec, or assassin / shadow tank.

 

2. As a result of the previous point, if I would want to ninja, I`d do it regardless, as I either have a too low cost anyway, or no cost whatsoever.

 

But people just love to overinflate things and talk with their backsides, while the truth is simpler: it is either NO credit sink, or a too small one to outweigh the ease of using legacy storage between 16+ alts.

 

Stop using logic, it confuses the children.

 

Yes, if a 162 or better loot drops that an alt needs, the 60k credit cost to rip the mods and send them over is CHEAP compared to the time and effort to go grind 100 or 120 basic comms to earn that gear on the alt.

 

So it is no deterent whatsoever to anyone with multiple lvl 55 alts.

[Uruare]

Sorry, dear, it's a J.D. from one of U.S. News & World Reports' Top 10 law schools. I went there after spending over a decade designing microprocessors for Intel Corp., among other things.

 

Keep trying to insult my intelligence, it always brings a smile to my face. You don't know me. You have no clue.

 

Right back atcha, captain smiley. You might want to take your own advice before you dispense with it next time.

 

In any event, they apparently don't teach people how to be relevant to a topic at cracker jack university, because you've now wasted several posts doing nothing but sling high school - worthy bait around.

 

How long will it take you to get on topic, Herr Doktor?

 

Let's find out!

 

In any event, GERMANE TO THE TOPIC, I think there are a lot if little things they could change without destroying any careful balances while, the same time, improving quality of life significantly.

 

I personally would love to see more interactive credit sinks that at least attempt to entertain me, but those are work, and theta always the possibility that balances of reasonable importance could be disrupted by to many elective things.

 

It's still something I'd urge them very strongly to look at doing, and nixing bop in favor of a bol standard seems to me like it'd be a great place to start.

Edited July 21, 2014 by Uruare

[BuriDogshin]

Right back atcha, captain smiley. You might want to take your own advice before you dispense with it next time.

 

In any event, they apparently don't teach people how to be relevant to a topic at cracker jack university, because you've now wasted several posts doing nothing but sling high school - worthy bait around.

 

How long week it take you to get on topic, Herr Doktor?

 

Let's find out!

Your hypocrisy is amazing: on off-topic post, full of insults, twice the length of the one you responded to, and doing nothing but complain about someone else posting off-topic. Truly, a post only a Special Snowflake could post.

 

Need I point out the amusing "How long week it" in it too ? Ah, it was edited after posting, to fix that and to add some supposedly on-topic drivel, the above quote is the entire original post. OK I can play that to: The answer is NO.

Edited July 21, 2014 by BuriDogshin