OK this is getting rather silly regarding hard mode Flashpoint GF

[XL-Jedi]

LOL... roll a tank

[Lord_of_Mu]

I'm sitting here trying to imagine "something else", aside from players behaving civilly and playing competently, that would incentivise me to join a random group. Enough real life money would work. But I can't imagine any ingame reward that would, including cartel coins.

 

Give me legacy wide commendations with a significantly increased cap and a stacking reward bonus of credits and commendations for completing flashpoints and I'd consider tanking again, more than one run even.

 

But for the most part many of the replies have summed up the reason why most tanks won't pug anymore. It's just not fun to deal with stupid people.

[Galsarus]

This is an age old problem which, IMO has a possible solution which is both simple and terribly complicated at the same time-

 

Player Etiquette

 

Allow me to explain.

 

When I queue up as DPS, I try to stick to the below priority -

1. Kill Order.

2. Anything that touches the healer overrides priority 1 and must be killed.

3. Pay attention to mechanics and phase changes. A good example here - Mando Raiders Final boss. When turrets are up, I should not be touching Mavrix at all. Turrets are my priority, once turrets are down, then I can open up on Mavirx himself.

4. Spread out my damage - If I open up with everything I've got right at the beginning, then tanks will most probably lose aggro. That 10k SoS followed by an 9k FT doesn't help the tank who hasn't built up an aggro table yet. In this regard, I give the tank 2-3 GCDs to build up a good ground. I know this point will be contested. But this is my practice and so far no tank has complained about it (this was also my practice when I was doing HM raid with my old guild).

 

Doing big numbers on the wrong target makes me look like an ***, doing big numbers on the right target makes the tank's and the healer's job easier. Problem is - a fairly high number of DPS class players, because of gear, feel they have a god given right to completely ignore Kill order. This frustrates both tanks and healers to no measure and as result, they stop queuing. If they did the right thing, then fps go a lot smoother, lot less frustration and much more enjoyable for the whole group. I sometimes wonder if these guys do the exact same thing when they're doing progression raiding and if so, why do their Raid Leaders put up with it.

 

As a tank (a mediocre one at that), I try to follow the below -

 

1. Aggro priority - my job is to make sure as many of the Elites and Strongs as possible are focused on me. If I lose aggro of weak or standard mobs to DPS, I wont fret over it - those things die quick and smart DPS should be able to clean them up before jumping on the strongs and Elites.

2. Spread out mobs - I'll ask DPS to handle to weak stuff while I taunt the strong/elite to me. Keep them bunch ed as much as possible. This makes for a clean fp

3. Set a medium pace - I don't need all my DCDs available, but so long as healer has full force/energy, everyone has picked up loot and my main CDs are available, I'll charge in. I don't like spending 2 hours in an FP, or doing RCs before every single pull. At boss fights, I'll ask if group is ready, no answer in 3 secs, I assume they're ready and I will pull.

4. in between fights, its not healer's job to top me up - I got an out of combat regen for that. that force/energy the healer spent topping me up, could've been better used in the next fight.

 

Problem I face regularly (in fact, 98% of the time) - DPS juggs/maras feel the obnoxious need to jump in first or MM snipers take a knee and want to get in that insta snipe. This means if my major skills are on CD after the last fight (charge/ grapple etc.) I'll need some time for them to become available, which makes my job easier. Everyone wants to rush the FP at breakneck speed, even if it means pulling ahead of tank over and over despite being asked not to. I can handle it if they gave me a few secs to build up an aggro table instead of taunt fluffing, but asking for that is too much for these uber l33t DPS who can solo burn Dread Council in their sleep with only a pair of tweezers. On one hand, this makes me want to give up tanking all together, on the other hand, realization that doing so only compounds the issue at hand still keeps me wanting to queue. Fortunately for me, I've managed to get the attention of some good folks who practice what the preach and do the right thing, so I now mostly queue with them. I still queue for a random group to at least try to be a part of the solution, but not as much as I'd like - simply because dealing with the Prima Donna DPS/healers isn't worth the time and effort.

 

My apologies for the wall of text:o

[psikofunkster]

Wrong.

 

The problem is people blaming the tanks for everything bad. To make matters worse, there's way too many jump-monkeys and badly skilled players that think they're good. Also, I've noticed an increase in bad attitudes - refusing to listen, drama queens, bullies, insults.

 

Take all this into account and you have your answer why there aren't any tanks in GF. Regular, casual, players get discouraged and avoid confrontation. The stubborn ones, like me, have their ignore lists full. I have three tanks, a healer and two dps on Rep side on my server and I update their ignore lists regularly.

 

It's not the tanks. It's people's attitudes and actions towards tanks.

 

And i agree with you sir. Try to play as a tank and you'll receive hate in exchange.

[Deewe]

Problem :

1. No multi-specs
   
2. Painful and costly respec system
   
3. No automated gear switching
   
4. No load/save UI key and skills layout
   
5. Alternate gear taking inventory
   
6. Cumbersome mods management
   
7. No gear tabs
   
8. No (optional) cross server queues
   

 

Can't have a success story with all that.

[Daekarus]

Problem :

1. No multi-specs
   
2. Painful and costly respec system
   
3. No automated gear switching
   
4. No load/save UI key and skills layout
   
5. Alternate gear taking inventory
   
6. Cumbersome mods management
   
7. No gear tabs
   
8. No (optional) cross server queues
   

 

Can't have a success story with all that.

I think those might help address part of the problem, but part only. It might encourage a small percentage of people to tank, but then the fundamental problem remains with one addition: now you have DPS players queuing as both tanks and DPS, and just swapping (or not) to whatever the queue pops. I have a feeling that would result in a glut of REALLY bad tanks in GF. If KDY grads are a problem as DPS, just imagine what they'll be like as tanks.

 

Don't get me wrong, sometimes I wish I could swap my main away from Shield spec and into Tactics or something without getting all new gear and redoing all of my hotkeys, but I really don't see competent players swapping much. If they were going to have a tank, they'd have one already.

[Jeweledleah]

Problem :

1. No multi-specs
   
2. Painful and costly respec system
   
3. No automated gear switching
   
4. No load/save UI key and skills layout
   
5. Alternate gear taking inventory
   
6. Cumbersome mods management
   
7. No gear tabs
   
8. No (optional) cross server queues
   

 

Can't have a success story with all that.

 

all of the above is incredibly minor. and field respec is not costly, after single time fee - its free to subscribers. or you could just go to fleet and not even pay that fee. cumbersome mod management is a matter of perspective. I actualy like mod system in this game, I just don't like deliberately bad enhancements you get in commendation gear.

 

none of the above when/if changed, will fix an actual problem with groupfinder. and that problem is - players. you cannot really fix jerks but you CAN fix incompetence by gating groupfinder content behind having to pass training for your chosen spec.

[thewitchdoctor]

... gating groupfinder content behind having to pass training for your chosen spec.

 

Don't get me wrong. This is probably a good idea and perhaps not too hard to implement.

 

POINT: Can someone at an upcoming Cantina event mention this. Repeatedly? Perhaps on a big sign with a flashing light?

 

Anyways, can you imagine the drama the forums will see? Proving grounds are too hard! ***? I instafail because I use Knockback/Overload once?!

[siegeshot]

Wrong.

 

The problem is people blaming the tanks for everything bad. To make matters worse, there's way too many jump-monkeys and badly skilled players that think they're good. Also, I've noticed an increase in bad attitudes - refusing to listen, drama queens, bullies, insults.

 

Take all this into account and you have your answer why there aren't any tanks in GF. Regular, casual, players get discouraged and avoid confrontation. The stubborn ones, like me, have their ignore lists full. I have three tanks, a healer and two dps on Rep side on my server and I update their ignore lists regularly.

 

It's not the tanks. It's people's attitudes and actions towards tanks.

 

You pretty much summed it up. We had a run two nights ago HM Czerka Labs where the Jug tank (from a very prominent guild) was screaming at our healer the entire run and he was doing no aoe taunts, no agro, no nothing playing as if he was a Marauder... He left at the end with a bash on our guild saying "we'll get better soon."

 

I won't have anything to do with that guild anymore. We usually run HM anything with zero wipes. So in that instance it was the tank's attitude but it wasn't the tank it was the attitude. DPS do it too, so do healers. And there's NOTHING you can do about it!!!!!!!! NOTHING! What, ignore them? Give me a break, it does nothing.

 

This game needs a player rating system like XBL so you can rate these a-holes 1 star so people know when they see them trying to queue in.

Edited July 11, 2014 by siegeshot

[DrewFromPhilly]

We could forcibly unsub ppl who click their abilities, but then 90% of the game would be unsubscribed.

[siegeshot]

Problem :

1. No multi-specs
   
2. Painful and costly respec system
   
3. No automated gear switching
   
4. No load/save UI key and skills layout
   
5. Alternate gear taking inventory
   
6. Cumbersome mods management
   
7. No gear tabs
   
8. No (optional) cross server queues
   

 

Can't have a success story with all that.

 

That list is irrelevant. The issue is we can't rate players. Give the community a rating system and you would see bad behavior virtually disappear in a weekend.

[thewitchdoctor]

The issue is we can't rate players. Give the community a rating system and you would see bad behavior virtually disappear in a weekend.

 

I disagree. A community rating system would be used instantly by trolls and griefers. And would be meaningless. I'd never trust it because, just as one example, for all I know, that tank got a ding by some moron for not guarding the healer! Not to mention the window-lickers that'd rate you down just for the lolz.

 

We do have a player-empowered function already: ignore.

 

What we players can do is not put up with the crap and try to teach those who can in fact learn. The rest find themselves only in groups with other bads on too many ignore lists.

[deltadt]

YES!

 

I always ask in a pug before we start a boss in a PUG OPS or FP if they need information or strategy. For some strange reason some still click ready and think that they can manage anyway, and the group whipes and tank leaves.

 

It is so important to say if someone is new to a boss and to know how knockback works. I have seen it so many times when the rest of us uses normal AoE only to see the mobs pushed away by someone claiming they do much better dps by knocking mobs away.

 

ideally everytime your in a flashpoint someone should ask before going into a fight do we all know this fight and point out nastys that lock onto you and explode. and not every run is going to be perfect.

[Jeweledleah]

We could forcibly unsub ppl who click their abilities, but then 90% of the game would be unsubscribed.

 

oh look. clicker hate. trust me, its not the clicking that makes for bad players. I know plenty of binders that are awful. its what abilities you use and when and just how much of a team player you are.

 

but hey... lets hate on insignificant differences in method (because they ARE insignificant thanks to global cooldown) and ignore the real problem.

 

@ Witchdoctor. there probably will be drama. there's always drama. but I do think it will help more people than it will annoy. and for newbies especially, I think it might be a welcome addition, because they will be able to learn in a safe, nonjudgmental environment.

[slafko]

Talk about mis quote the op. You should have included more than the one line because he was talking about the game being the problem and not tanks per se. I also think in my opinion some good points. Not everyone finds tanks easy to play making them more apealing is a good thing right? For us all?

Had I quoted his entire post, the end result would be the same: He's still horribly wrong. Blaming the game for lack of tanks is just ludicrous.

 

As for easiness of play: People who play tanks play them *because* they are hard to play, not "in spite of". Challenging gameplay is more important to some people than mindless button-mashing that's the DPS.

[slafko]

Especially when it isn't unique to this game either...

WoW has the same gosh darn issue and how long has it been out?

The only games that don't have this issue either:

A) don't have any sort of group finder

B) don't use the trinity (guild wars 2)

GW2 has the problem of being one massive Zerg Fest where the bads will get carried through either by good players or by the sheer number of people nuking the enemy. This is even worse than the trinity.

[Fruitous]

Merp friends make them... save time... go fourth and slay your dragons.

[slafko]

Problem I face regularly (in fact, 98% of the time) - DPS juggs/maras feel the obnoxious need to jump in first or MM snipers take a knee and want to get in that insta snipe. This means if my major skills are on CD after the last fight (charge/ grapple etc.) I'll need some time for them to become available, which makes my job easier. Everyone wants to rush the FP at breakneck speed, even if it means pulling ahead of tank over and over despite being asked not to.

This is why you make a Shadow or Sin tank and Force Speed + Rocket boost through everything making the derps try to keep up with you. Slingers and Snipers will cry, Sents and Maras will be forced to pop Transcendence in a futile attempt to keep up and the healers will be going "Where the hell did everyone go" after they're done collecting loot.

 

If, by some miracle, the derps manage to pull before you - fire up that Force Speed again and pull the next mob. You pull it, you tank it baby! <3

[Loc_n_lol]

Well let's see... we have one role that

-works in mysterious ways to the uninitiated

-carries all the responsibility for its failings, and it's really obvious when you fail

-get **** gear from the game, even from operation tokens

-is heavily gear dependant

-is impractical for solo play

 

and then we have another role that

-is very straightforward

-carries little to no responsibility (worst case scenario you share the blame with the other guy of your role)

-gets much better optimized gear, even from comms vendors

-is not all that gear-dependant anyway (mainhand / off-hand matter most)

-is ideal for solo play

 

Is it really any wonder why role #2 seems more appealing ?...

 

 

Either way, OP's claim (one pop every 6 hours ?...) seems a bit off, unless he's playing on a PVP server or just a downright dead server.

[Khaleijo]

I wonder what happened to "oh this is a nice person to play with, i'll put him on the friend list and will ask him to play together again next time".

That would solve all problems with the GF a capable DPS could have, but either really all DPS are just bad with bad manners, that no one would want them as friends or no one wants to befriend others in a MULTIplayer game anymore at all...

"Hi, thx, bye and nothing more. Those others running with me are just somewhat intelligent npcs", seems to be a spreading attitude. No need to respect the other players, to help them or to let them help you in order to get fun for everyone in the group...

 

Why should anyone who has friends or guilds to run with bother with that?

Especially tanks and healers who play these roles because they are interested in group play and team work?

Even good DPS won't bother, because for them playing is also more fun in a group working together.

 

So, i suspect the majority of those who still use the GF are either new and inexperienced or those who have no ather means, likely because no one would play with them by choice.

And last but not least there are a few good players left, who have some masochistic traits or seek the challenge of succeeding even though the group is playing against them.

Depending to which group you belong, you waiting times are moderate or really really long, but it has nothing to do with class design or the game itself, it is purely a problem with the players.

[thewitchdoctor]

GW2 has the problem of being one massive Zerg Fest where the bads will get carried through either by good players or by the sheer number of people nuking the enemy. This is even worse than the trinity.

 

This is second-hand info as I am one of the few who couldn't play GW2 at launch due to the low FOV they shipped that game with. (I know they have since introduced a slider but after the little I saw I know I have zero interest).

 

Supposedly, while the game is not designed for a trinity, the player base has effectively mandated one by requiring people to fill the tank, healer, and DPS roles. Which says a lot, if true, about the MMO genre and what we players do in game vs what some say on forums.

[LordArtemis]

PUGs are the wrong places for any players to expect or look for reason IMO. Anything that can go wrong likely will go wrong in a PUG.

[Jandi]

This is second-hand info as I am one of the few who couldn't play GW2 at launch due to the low FOV they shipped that game with. (I know they have since introduced a slider but after the little I saw I know I have zero interest).

 

Supposedly, while the game is not designed for a trinity, the player base has effectively mandated one by requiring people to fill the tank, healer, and DPS roles. Which says a lot, if true, about the MMO genre and what we players do in game vs what some say on forums.

 

The whole "trinity is lazy design omg!" whining vanished entirely from the internet when GW2 launched and people realized just how retarded the group play in that game truly is.

[demotivator]

This is second-hand info as I am one of the few who couldn't play GW2 at launch due to the low FOV they shipped that game with. (I know they have since introduced a slider but after the little I saw I know I have zero interest).

 

Supposedly, while the game is not designed for a trinity, the player base has effectively mandated one by requiring people to fill the tank, healer, and DPS roles. Which says a lot, if true, about the MMO genre and what we players do in game vs what some say on forums.

The whole "trinity is lazy design omg!" whining vanished entirely from the internet when GW2 launched and people realized just how retarded the group play in that game truly is.

 

Basically ArenaNet said "A round wheel works nice and is cool but it is time we do things differently for the sake of it. We proudly present you: the square wheel."

 

But there is a good reason why we are still using round wheels to this day.

 

The same applies to the trinity. I hope it will be a lesson to the future devs who think that they can come up with a better system because there is simply none.

Edited July 11, 2014 by demotivator

[LordArtemis]

Basically ArenaNet said "A round wheel works nice and is cool but it is time we do things differently for the sake of it. We proudly present you: the square wheel."

 

But there is a good reason why we are still using round wheels to this day.

 

The same applies to the trinity. I hope it will be a lesson to the future devs who think that they can come up with a better system because there is simply none.

 

I would partially disagree, only in so far as to state that tactical flashpoints seem to work pretty well without trinity reliance. Naturally, if raids are designed to require trinity it is needed...if not, trinity will not longer be relevant IMO.

 

That observation is entirely personal and speculative, naturally.