OK this is getting rather silly regarding hard mode Flashpoint GF

[DOHboy]

will toss this out there as well. after a certain point, running HM ops just isn't worth it any more. If the goal is to get into ops, you can run Oricon for gear and essentially be ready for sm ops with a guild. If this is not a first toon, elite coms and drops from other ops can be transferred to alts via legacy gear (for a price) and never had have to step foot into a HM flashpoint.

 

IF they were enjoyable maybe more tanks would queue just for the fun, but I stopped running them for many reasons, most of which is the "noob" threshold. Battle of Ilum being one of there where they want to fight every boss or have never done it before (never bothered with the SM) and end up just taking way more time than what would be reasonable. Who wants to spend 3 hours in HM Cademimu, I can tell you one person who doesn't....and why I never queue for HM flashpoints anymore especially on my tank.

[ekwalizer]

How have I forgotten knockbacks?

 

Again during this double XP week, I had this sorc that kept using his knockback. At one point I asked him to please stop knocking the enemies out of AOE. And I got this reply: "AOE are useless" (I am honestly not sure if he was trolling or serious) and he obviously continued to use his knockback.

 

These guys go on /ignore.

[Apeth]

Wrong.

 

The problem is people blaming the tanks for everything bad. To make matters worse, there's way too many jump-monkeys and badly skilled players that think they're good. Also, I've noticed an increase in bad attitudes - refusing to listen, drama queens, bullies, insults.

 

Take all this into account and you have your answer why there aren't any tanks in GF. Regular, casual, players get discouraged and avoid confrontation. The stubborn ones, like me, have their ignore lists full. I have three tanks, a healer and two dps on Rep side on my server and I update their ignore lists regularly.

 

It's not the tanks. It's people's attitudes and actions towards tanks.

 

Talk about mis quote the op. You should have included more than the one line because he was talking about the game being the problem and not tanks per se. I also think in my opinion some good points. Not everyone finds tanks easy to play making them more apealing is a good thing right? For us all?

[Warrgames]

These guys go on /ignore.

 

Only so much room and too many people that are clueless on how to play as a group. Just easier to not run pug HM.

[ninjonxb]

Talk about mis quote the op. You should have included more than the one line because he was talking about the game being the problem and not tanks per se. I also think in my opinion some good points. Not everyone finds tanks easy to play making them more apealing is a good thing right? For us all?

 

I have a better solution.

Lets make simplify DPS since they are the ones that make it hard the Tanks.

Obviously DPS is way to difficult.

 

Tanking is EASY if you have a competent group.

[DOHboy]

I agree with all of the other posters here. Two other things I'd like to add though.

 

1) I hate healers that have no clue how threat and guard work demanding guards.

 

I was recently kicked from a leveling flashpoint on my shadow after the healer demanded that I guard him even though he never took aggro once. When I told him healers don't get guard and that he doesn't understand how it works he said that he "HAS A TANK", as if that tells me anything other than him being a bad tank. He then stopped healing me. Because he stopped healing me I kept dying, then the DPS chimed in saying "your gear's bad you keep dying, he's doing the best he can to keep you up", not noticing that I wasn't receiving a single heal. Watching him he was running around saber striking enemies and using telekinetic throw. This would also flow over into the "healers that dps instead of heal suck" category.

 

My guildy has had a healer ragequit before because he refused to guard him. It's insane.

 

2) Commendation gear for tanks is awful.

 

There is no reason for me to get comms on my tanks except to gear my companions. Everything about them is awful and I'd do much better to gear myself out through operations than to wear anything from the comm vendor. That being the case, there's very little reason for me to run flashpoints for comms when I have no use for comms.

 

I remember one flashpoint I ran, two DPS WAY over geared to be running flashpoints (near BIS for most gear at the time). I was geared no where near them but enough that a HM flashpoint would be no issue. I spent most my time with taunts on cooldown since the DPS had no urge (or knowledge?) of aggro dumps and complaining I couldn't hold aggro and causing problems for the healers. They also felt it nice to split DPS and wonder why they were taking lots of damage -.-

 

pug'ing in general is just bad. I even cringe when we pug to fill up a 16 man story mode and I'm tanking. Just never know what you are going to get.

[Aries_cz]

I tried levelling up three tanks, and I just couldn't. I want to walk around Tatooine like a breeze and kill stuff quickly, not end up in a long boring grind. They kill too slowly, compared to the dps tree. I suspect many regular casual players just feel like me - though, yes, we have to pay with long, long, looooong group finder queues, but playing a role that's absolutely not for me/doesn't work as well in solo content would take the fun out of the game entirely.

 

Been a while since I leveled a tank (Guardian/Powertech), but I think I pretty much sliced through everything rather quickly, even with healer companions tagging behind me (of course, when getting DPS comps, it was faster)

[Warrgames]

Talk about mis quote the op. You should have included more than the one line because he was talking about the game being the problem and not tanks per se. I also think in my opinion some good points. Not everyone finds tanks easy to play making them more apealing is a good thing right? For us all?

 

How is that misquote? The OP is blaming lack of tanks on design and being unfun to play. Yet everyone (tanks that post here) say the same thing that their isn't a design flaw and they are fun to play; it is just DPS are bad. They annoy players that enjoy playing tanks to the point they don't want to pug anything. DPS should L2G.

[Warrgames]

I remember one flashpoint I ran, two DPS WAY over geared to be running flashpoints (near BIS for most gear at the time). I was geared no where near them but enough that a HM flashpoint would be no issue. I spent most my time with taunts on cooldown since the DPS had no urge (or knowledge?) of aggro dumps and complaining I couldn't hold aggro and causing problems for the healers. They also felt it nice to split DPS and wonder why they were taking lots of damage -.-

 

pug'ing in general is just bad. I even cringe when we pug to fill up a 16 man story mode and I'm tanking. Just never know what you are going to get.

 

As gear rating of DPS grows up by 1, IQ drops by 100.

[Tsillah]

I have 3 level 55 tanks and a 4th on the way. Yeh I play both rep and imp. I've tanked pretty much all ops in sm but and a couple in HM. Tanks are not my mains but I do like to tank for fun.

 

And there's the issue...it's often not fun and it depends on the group, not the game. I am so sick of dying because healers are dps'ing, or dps breaking cc and getting the healer killed so we die just the same. Marauders who charge in and take aggro. Though there it's easy...I let them die and then take aggro, usually we are fine with one idiot dps down. I also am sick of stupid rdps getting close and using knockbacks etc etc etc.

 

Trust me, there are tanks in this game....it's the dumb *** players that you run into especially in FP's that make me stop doing them. I only do HM FPs with premade groups.

 

It's your own fault.

 

As soon as the average dps learns:

 

1) not to break cc's

2) not to use knockback on mobs the tank is tanking

3) not to use aoe's to take aggro off the tank and then let the adds run around killing the healer

4) to avoid unnecessary damage

5) what a kill order is

 

...then I will pug again. I am not holding my breath.

[Jeweledleah]

Have to agree with the responders. It's not a "tanks are too hard to play" problem. It's a "bad attitude dps make tanks not want to queue" problem, or a "tanks don't need to PUG to get what they want, so why subject themselves to bad attitude dps" problem.

 

just wanted to quote that.

 

I have 3 tanks at 55 on imp side, currently one on pubside and leveling a shadow. I love my tank babies, I think they are fun to play. but... I'm deathly afraid to pug on them. see, I may be a decent tank, but I'm not an awesome one. my preferred role is healing, that's where I'm most comfortable and most self assured. so I can't bring myself to pug at 55 simply becasue I know, I KNOW that I will be dealing with difficult people. might get lucky of course, but majority of the time, especially based on pugging experiences on my healer.. I won't be that lucky. and becasue I'm not gods gift to tanking - I will be blamed for everything. things that are my fault, things that aren't my fault, pulling too slow, pulling too fast (often in the same group at the same time - becasue god forbid I watch healer's energy bar and stop for a second when they are trying to recuperate) losing aggro on anything at all, even if its weak ranged mob far away from main group, not knowing the flashpoint like the back of my hand, taking damage, everything.

 

between stress of being constantly judged and stress of trying to herd a group full of unruly cats, trying to keep enemies under at least semblance of control - its just not fun at all to pug on a tank. and fun is the primary reason I play, so if I'm not having fun - why keep playing.

 

making tanks easier to play will not change that. WoWifying flashpoints and making threat generation higher, all the while keeping enemies tightly grouped for AoE fests - will not change that. its the PLAYERS that make tanking unfun. which is why I only tank with at least one or two guildies in a group - preferably no pugs at all.

 

I guarantee you, hel - you can see it in this thread, that I'm not the only one.

[Kingsbount]

Actually BW could make some sort of reward system, based on role in group.

Temporary buffs, money, special commendations.

There's plenty of way to inspire people play their roles (especially tanks).

But we never gonna see that.

[AlienEyeTX]

I tried levelling up three tanks, and I just couldn't. I want to walk around Tatooine like a breeze and kill stuff quickly, not end up in a long boring grind. They kill too slowly, compared to the dps tree. I suspect many regular casual players just feel like me - though, yes, we have to pay with long, long, looooong group finder queues, but playing a role that's absolutely not for me/doesn't work as well in solo content would take the fun out of the game entirely.

 

So... that's why we have options. Not everything is going to appeal to everyone. I sure don't want to tank. I don't think it needs to be changed, either. Some people love tanking. If you don't like it, don't do it. Just know that you like something that is very popular and it just means that the line is longer to wait in.

 

When you go to Disney World, you have to wait longer for Space Mountain than for the Tea Cups. Does that mean Disney needs to change the Tea Cups?

[DOHboy]

Actually BW could make some sort of reward system, based on role in group.

Temporary buffs, money, special commendations.

There's plenty of way to inspire people play their roles (especially tanks).

But we never gonna see that.

 

can we give a disincentive to dps to queue (or not queue) as well?

[Jeweledleah]

Actually BW could make some sort of reward system, based on role in group.

Temporary buffs, money, special commendations.

There's plenty of way to inspire people play their roles (especially tanks).

But we never gonna see that.

 

they did that in WoW. didn't get me tanking. so they made dungeons simpler. still didn't really get people tanking, but it did get dps queueing as tanks and succeeding anyways, becasue simplifying dungeons actualy made it easy to dpstank.

 

P.S. I found leveling on my tanks far FAR easier than leveling on my dps characters. sure things individually died a little slower, but I was so much more survivable, I could do more, pull faster, didn't have to rest as much. only time I level as dps nowadays is when I'm playing AC that doesn't have tanking or healing option.

[DarthTHC]

Actually BW could make some sort of reward system, based on role in group.

Temporary buffs, money, special commendations.

There's plenty of way to inspire people play their roles (especially tanks).

But we never gonna see that.

 

Won't work.

 

I play a tank. I love to tank. Just not in PUGs.

 

There is no level of temporary buff, nor level of money (even 1,000,000 credits per successful run), and no amount of commendations that would get me to tank a PUG. I don't need the buff; I can already faceroll everything in the game. I don't need the money because I know how to play the credit game. I certainly don't need the commendations because I tank for a guild that does respectfully well at endgame.

 

The way to inspire tanks to play their roles is... well, we tanks are already inspired to play our roles.

 

So the way to inspire tanks to play their roles in a group of randoms is for that group of randoms to learn how to play without sucking. That's the incentive. Make the experience fun for tanks instead of hell for tanks. Then we'll queue with you more.

 

Other tanks on this thread have already outlined the issues and what all you non-tanks need to do to improve... to inspire us to queue more.

 

But... as you said... we ain't never gonna see that.

[DOHboy]

Won't work.

 

I play a tank. I love to tank. Just not in PUGs.

 

There is no level of temporary buff, nor level of money (even 1,000,000 credits per successful run), and no amount of commendations that would get me to tank a PUG. I don't need the buff; I can already faceroll everything in the game. I don't need the money because I know how to play the credit game. I certainly don't need the commendations because I tank for a guild that does respectfully well at endgame.

 

The way to inspire tanks to play their roles is... well, we tanks are already inspired to play our roles.

 

So the way to inspire tanks to play their roles in a group of randoms is for that group of randoms to learn how to play without sucking. That's the incentive. Make the experience fun for tanks instead of hell for tanks. Then we'll queue with you more.

 

Other tanks on this thread have already outlined the issues and what all you non-tanks need to do to improve... to inspire us to queue more.

 

But... as you said... we ain't never gonna see that.

 

I envision a tank/healer only flahpoint...maybe let a few dps in if they can pass a quiz or some kind of test.

 

edit: Test would be via pictures only obviously.

Edited July 10, 2014 by DOHboy

[DarthTHC]

I envision a tank/healer only flahpoint...maybe let a few dps in if they can pass a quiz or some kind of test.

 

edit: Test would be via pictures only obviously.

 

I snorted.

 

All you need is a tank and healer and 2 DPS companions. Any one of my companions, even the T7 I leave woefully under-geared, performs more admirably than at least 75% of the human damage dealers I've encountered via GF. Get a tank and healer together, queue up, see if the DD's don't suck. If they suck, vote kick and summon your favorite companion. Win.

[errant_knight]

Part of the problem here is tactical fps, I think. people level without ever learning how to play group content properly, or even use all their abilities effectively. They get to 50-55 without having to learn things like kill order, use of aoe in groups, use of cc and are in endgame entirely unprepared but not aware of how much they don't know.

[Warrgames]

Part of the problem here is tactical fps, I think. people level without ever learning how to play group content properly, or even use all their abilities effectively. They get to 50-55 without having to learn things like kill order, use of aoe in groups, use of cc and are in endgame entirely unprepared but not aware of how much they don't know.

 

These problems have been around long before TFP. TFP only allow baddie to keep being baddie.

[Callaron]

How have I forgotten knockbacks?

 

Again during this double XP week, I had this sorc that kept using his knockback. At one point I asked him to please stop knocking the enemies out of AOE. And I got this reply: "AOE are useless" (I am honestly not sure if he was trolling or serious) and he obviously continued to use his knockback.

 

This one even annoys me when I'm playing as a DPS. There I am on my Merc, my Death from Above perfectly aimed and starting to hit a large group of enemies. Only to be ruined a moment later by the knockback happy idiot that thinks bouncing silver and gold mobs a few steps further is the most epic move ever, the ultimate weapon that's going to win the flashpoint! (After all, if he keeps doing it every fight - so that must be his line of thought, right?) It's even worse when trying to line up an Orbital Bombardement on an Agent.

 

Although those obviously pale in comparisson to the annoyance it presents for tanks.

Now add in the situational awareness and rapid responses tanking requires, along with the default leadership role, wannabe-Tanks that jump in first, and all the other things that can ruin one's day when braving the groupfinder as a tank, and you have the reason they are so rare.

 

/salute to all you brave tanks.

Edited July 10, 2014 by Callaron

[Jeweledleah]

the more I think about it the more I realize that we really do need to copy WoW in one respect. (well - future WoW anyways)

 

proving grounds. if group finder hardmodes/operations were unavailable to anyone who didn't pass the proving grounds - we may actualy make pugging more pleasant.

 

using knockbacks in proving grounds? automatic - go back and start over. I know it has its uses, but those situation uses can be learned later. I'd rather people learn NOT to use an ability like that first

Edited July 10, 2014 by Jeweledleah

[Callaron]

the more I think about it the more I realize that we really do need to copy WoW in one respect. (well - future WoW anyways)

 

proving grounds. if group finder hardmodes/operations were unavailable to anyone who didn't pass the proving grounds - we may actualy make pugging more pleasant.

 

using knockbacks as dps in proving grounds? automatic - go back and start over

 

Hehe yeah, Blizzard comes up with some good stuff. I couldn't help but smirk when I read about that upcoming feature.

[Warrgames]

This one even annoys me as a DPS. There I am on my Merc, my Death from Above perfectly aimed. Only to be ruined a moment later by the knockback happy idiot that thinks bouncing silver and gold mobs a few steps further is the most epic move ever, the ultimate weapon that's going to win the flashpoint! (After all, if he keeps doing it every fight - so that must be his line of thought, right?) It's even worse when trying to line up an Orbital Bombardement on an Agent.

 

Although those obviously pale in comparisson to the annoyance it presents for tanks.

Now add in the situational awareness and rapid responses tanking requires, along with the default leadership role, wannabe-Tanks that jump in first, and all the other things that can ruin one's day when braving the groupfinder as a tank, and you have the reason they are so rare.

 

/salute to all you brave tanks.

 

I think its that the SI/JC think the knockback does 1000 times more damage than any other AoE.

 

All joking aside, I believe the really issue is the fact that SI/JC get the knockback at lvl 3 and it becomes part of their rotation and these knockback spammer fail to understand a proper rotation.

[Lorrimar]

I think that we are now beginning to reap the rewards of a new generation of players who have leveled entirely in KDY. Because this "tactical" FP pops almost instantly all the time, no one is doing the regulars as they level up any more. Once they hit 50 or 55 queue up for a heroic FP, they want to try to zerg it like KDY & that just doesn't work. I tried to do a False Emp HM when I hit 51 over the weekend (operative healer) & both dps & the "tank" just tried to zerg everything down. Basically the only tactic they seem to have learned in KDY is jump in smash all the buttons, die & run back, rinse, repeat. I tried to explain crowd control, kill order & that a healer can't take a punch in a real FP unlike KDY, but they either straight up ignored everything I said or I got comments like "lol CC". After clearing half way to the 1st boss & already have 30k in repair bills, I just said "Sorry guys, I cannot heal the group & tank a gold & 3 silvers at the same time, good luck with the rest of your run" & left.

 

You reap what you sow & the seeds that we have been sowing in KDY are now coming back to haunt us.