Nerf TT / BO

[Verain]

This gets press inside other threads, but lemme just go make a nice thread for this.

 

Targeting Telem- really good uptime, wild crits.

Blaster Overcharge- around 50% damage boost

 

 

Multiplicatively stacks with:

Wingman - 20% accuracy boost

Concentrated Fire - 36% crit with blasters

 

TT is up 50% of the time and gives really wild crits, and crits to pods. Combine with Concentrated Fire for an extra 36% crit rate on top of the 15% from the ability with the 25% crit damage. This stack (plus a bit of client side latency on the scout) is responsible for subsecond kills pretty reliably.

 

BO is more powerful in theory, but has a 30% uptime and can escaped from. It also doesn't stack quite as optimally with CF, though it does stack a bit better with Wingman.

 

 

 

 

So these are cool, and powerful... and probably too good. We need either a straight nerf, or a mild redesign.

 

A mild redesign would reduce the power of these cooldowns offensively, giving them either some defensive tricks or some passive boosts that are on full time.

 

 

 

 

I know a lot of other stuff gets the glory on these forums, but the burst capability of these moves seems to define the meta a bit.

 

 

 

Also note: Depending on nerfs, Combat Command might also need attention. Unlikely but true!

 

 

 

 

I think the overall problem isn't the magnitude of the cooldown- it's the burst.

[Slivovidze]

What do you want, the most reliable countermeasure against gunships removed?

 

Honestly the Nova deals like half the damage withtout TT and you should know better than anyone else that the friggen gunship needs to be killed A.S.A.f&@king.P.

 

Of course these damn cattlescouts are a mess with these, but while fighting them I usually see their buffs and so I can brace myself. But you can't give a gunship time to brace himself!

 

What use would Nova have with nerfed TT and thus toned down burst? Troll builds only? "Sportscar" which can boost indefinitely but can not kill reliably? I will rather see gunship pilots crying then having the most sympathetic ship suffer another nerf that wasn't actually directed at her primarily.

Edited July 6, 2014 by Slivovidze

[Verain]

A nerf to what can be subsecond kills doesn't remove a counter.

 

 

Scouts are too bursty on live.

[phoenixjon]

What do you want, the most reliable countermeasure against gunships removed?

 

Honestly the Nova deals like half the damage withtout TT and you should know better than anyone else that the friggen gunship needs to be killed A.S.A.f&@king.P.

 

Of course these damn cattlescouts are a mess with these, but while fighting them I usually see their buffs and so I can brace myself. But you can't give a gunship time to brace himself!

 

What use would Nova have with nerfed TT and thus toned down burst? Troll builds only? "Sportscar" which can boost indefinitely but can not kill reliably? I will rather see gunship pilots crying then having the most sympathetic ship suffer another nerf that wasn't actually directed at her primarily.

 

"WAHHHHHHHHHHH, I suck without overpowered buffs!"

[Slivovidze]

Of course they are bursty, they can't stand in the fire shrugging off hits. That's like if I said that gunships have too long range in live. Burst can be eliminated simply by knowing they are coming, lack of which is pretty much gunship's only weakness and so it needs to be exploited by those who can possibly get one-shot killed by the gunship.

 

I don't have problems facing cattlescouts in combat on live, but I know that I usually don't kill a gunship with my TT only, when CC is on cooldown. As you know, giving a gunship a second or even two to react leads to BR and neverending pursue sequence.

[tunewalker]

Honestly, if people are scared gunships would become to strong with this, Make strikes stronger against them.

 

Scouts would still do well, just wouldnt kill gunships AS quickly. Strikes would threaten GS a little more, but would still be threatened by scouts a little less maybe, but still be threatened...... or do nothing just Nerf these 2 abilities THEN find out what it does to the meta just like I dont know..... every other nerf thats come out..... If GS become flavor of the month patience they will find a way to Nerf GS again for every one if they get to strong dont you worry.

 

But do this first so that maybe strikes might become stronger. Its not just GS that suffer afterall.

 

Edit: To reiderate, this game is made up of more ships then scouts and GS. And even with a slight nerf, scouts will not lose the full amount of their burst. They will still have a button on demand burst, it just wont be as high. They will still have pods and they will still have BLC allowing for their weapons to do all kinds of burst.

 

This isnt a TAKE BURST AWAY FROM SCOUTS thread this is a Tone Down Burst Scouts to a more reasonable level thread.

Edited July 6, 2014 by tunewalker

[TrinityLyre]

This post is hereby awarded the Seal of Approval. Edited July 6, 2014 by TrinityLyre

[Slivovidze]

Edit: To reiderate, this game is made up of more ships then scouts and GS. And even with a slight nerf, scouts will not lose the full amount of their burst. They will still have a button on demand burst, it just wont be as high. They will still have pods and they will still have BLC allowing for their weapons to do all kinds of burst.

 

This isnt a TAKE BURST AWAY FROM SCOUTS thread this is a Tone Down Burst Scouts to a more reasonable level thread.

 

I actually think that it is only the gunships (and bombers) who suffer from this burst. And newbies, of course, but these suffer from gunship's oneshots and fighter's torpedoes about the same.

To kill a good gunship, one needs to sneak on her. Fighters can't really do much sneaking, so it's on scouts. And if you sneak on someone and take 3 seconds to kill him, it is not much of a sneak attack anymore, is it now. The burst is a part of the surprise sneak attack, the upper hand exploitation.

And the gunship has simple defense against it, just press tab every 2 seconds.

Against scouts and fighters, the uptime just is not as high as it is on the stationary gunship, so the potential isn't that great. (again, I talk experienced pilots, newbies fall easily to anything)

[dancezwithnubz]

Nerf TT/BO and Bombers are now even tougher for scouts while, at the same time, Bombers & Gunships are ignoring scout shields &/or armour?

 

did the nasty widdle cattlescout kill you before you could run back to the capship?

[Altheran]

First thing I'd remove to Targeting Telemetry is the ability to make secondary weapons crit. It's unneeded.

I won't go further since I'm not an expert of Targeting Telemetry, I have to "study" the component before saying anything more.

 

As for Blaster Overcharge, I'll have to look at it too, but for instance, I think that increasing both Rate of Fire and damage itself at the same time may have a bit too much of synergy on the damage output.

Edited July 6, 2014 by Altheran

[dancezwithnubz]

First thing I'd remove to Targeting Telemetry is the ability to make secondary weapons crit. It's unneeded.

I won't go further since I'm not an expert of Targeting Telemetry, I have to "study" the component before saying anything more.

 

As for Blaster Overcharge, I'll have to look at it too, but for instance, I think that increasing both Rate of Fire and damage itself at the same time may have a bit too much of synergy on the damage output.

 

I often switch between the two and I really can't decide which is 'best'.

 

where both BO & TT get silly and cause the whined about fast kills, is multi-cooldown pops alongside Concentrated Fire.

 

i'll grant that the combination is very powerful, but is only for 6s every minute.

 

i tend to multi-pop TT/CF, but find i do better using BO & CF sequentially.

[Altheran]

I often switch between the two and I really can't decide which is 'best'.

 

where both BO & TT get silly and cause the whined about fast kills, is multi-cooldown pops alongside Concentrated Fire.

 

i'll grant that the combination is very powerful, but is only for 6s every minute.

 

i tend to multi-pop TT/CF, but find i do better using BO & CF sequentially.

After taking a look, the only thing that cause an over synergy between both abilities, is TT crit talent. Should probably turned into Slug's.

 

After that everything comes more or less from the skills themselves.

 

I'd say TT should probably have its uptime looked at (+50% duration as an upgrade - really ?).

As for BO, the main problem I see is the amplitude of the RoF buff, probably too high... 25% then 33% only from RoF is pretty extreme.

[Ryuku-sama]

Of course they are bursty, they can't stand in the fire shrugging off hits. That's like if I said that gunships have too long range in live. Burst can be eliminated simply by knowing they are coming, lack of which is pretty much gunship's only weakness and so it needs to be exploited by those who can possibly get one-shot killed by the gunship.

 

/whine..... Let me guess... You use Disto Field (-20% to your shield) and Lightweight Armor (9% evasion instead of I dunno.... 15% hull) You take every single components that boost evasion and then cry when a shot suddenly pas through. Instead try to use.... Directionnal maybe?? Or StE with Shield boost?? And... God forbid it, Reinforced Armor?? Yup... scout aren't forced to be squishy. You chose to be... Not the same.

 

Now.... I wouldn't affect the the burst itself. TT uptime should be reduced. The nerf should be applicated in downsides to those components.

> BO increase your RoF. It should increase your power consumption too.... like 25% more... and this downside would last 10 sec AFTER BO end.

> TT increase your accuracy and your crits. First get ride of those secondary crit.... Primary are enough. TT boost accuracy... so reduce the RoF during the buff by 25%...

[dancezwithnubz]

/whine..... Let me guess... You use Disto Field (-20% to your shield) and Lightweight Armor (9% evasion instead of I dunno.... 15% hull) You take every single components that boost evasion and then cry when a shot suddenly pas through. Instead try to use.... Directionnal maybe?? Or StE with Shield boost?? And... God forbid it, Reinforced Armor?? Yup... scout aren't forced to be squishy. You chose to be... Not the same.

 

I wasn't aware that gunships had an StE converter......

 

 

I get what your saying, it's just that exactly the same whines can also apply to gunships re: Evasion

 

[Nemarus]

Though I main a Blackbolt in TDM, I do agree that adjustments need to be made. That being said, I have some anecdotal evidence I'd like to submit to the court:

 

1) Offensive cooldowns are a hard thing to balance, especially when the vast majority of ships don't get them. If I were able to do a significant redesign, I'd make all Scout cooldowns defensive/mobility/utility-based. I'd then do a buffing pass on Rapids, LLC's, and Medium Laser Cannons and a nerfing pass on Slugs and BLC's.

 

2) I do agree that Targeting Telemetry + Concentrated Fire is too bursty. I believe everyone (Gunships too) should have a chance to react to being attacked before they get red-hulled or destroyed.

 

3) I'm not sure I agree that Targeting Telemetry alone needs adjustment. On my Republic alt, I use Wingman instead of Concentrated Fire, and I feel like pretty much everyone I attack with Targeting Telemetry has a chance to react and engage in legitimate evasive maneuvers that require me to spend effort/time to finish the kill. This feels balanced.

 

4) It's hard to judge Blaster Overcharge itself, because it comes on a ship that has perfect components. I actually think Blaster Overcharge might be a bit tamer if it was on the T1 Scout instead of the T2. But either way, by far the biggest problem is that it gives a straight buff to per-shot damage, which is devastating with BLC's. It shouldn't buff regen time, firing rate, crit AND damage. At most, it should pick 2.

 

I do think that any nerf to Scout burst will need to be accompanied by a nerf to Slug Railgun, simply because if Scouts can't kill Gunships reliably, then no one can.

 

I think both classes share the issue that they can deal significant hull damage with little to no warning or time to react.

Edited July 6, 2014 by Nemarus

[SithAceI]

Really....

 

Gunships and T2 scouts are overpowered...

 

Bombers just sit there and poop way too much damage...

 

Strike fighters are just too underpowered!...

 

"I fly T1 scout so not to seem a richard like all those BattleScout's a-holes"

 

"I really just want to sit way way over here and kill without being bothered at all"

 

"I fly a Strikepig cus I really really want a x-wing! ( pounds floor with fist )"

 

Did I miss anyone's cry cry please make ME a god among men thread/post?

 

We have all played match after match and have been shut down by different ships. It happens. It has been said before and needs to be said again.

 

GIT GUD!

 

Fly all the damn ships to counter whatever the other team's flying. Quit sticking with one ship that u just can't fly without because of reasons posted above. Get over yourselves. No ship does not have a counter to it but if you fly one ship exclusively you will be pissed about one or anothers ability to kill you.

 

As you were all.

[Altheran]

 

1) Offensive cooldowns are a hard thing to balance, especially when the vast majority of ships don't get them.

 

Sometimes, I wish the Spearpoint/Bloodmark would exceptionally have twin weapons just like the Clarion/Imperius exceptionally did not get them to help getting a better idea of how good these burst system abilities actually are.

[Verain]

To kill a good gunship, one needs to sneak on her.

 

A good gunship can't be "snuck up on". The thing is if you are closing on a gunship, he's shooting at you, shooting at someone else, or not shooting.

 

Nerf TT/BO and Bombers are now even tougher for scouts

 

This is good. Bombers are too vulnerable to scouts on live.

 

while, at the same time, Bombers & Gunships are ignoring scout shields &/or armour?

 

Yea, that part is fine. Scouts are too bursty, not too fragile.

 

 

First thing I'd remove to Targeting Telemetry is the ability to make secondary weapons crit.

 

I like that it mods secondary weapons- it's targeting telemetry not blaster telemetry- but I think the problem is that it grants crit (sometimes the ONLY crit) and then buffs those crits. That one talent is like half of the move's power. There's no way it's ok. I'd like to see whatever the ability becomes to still work with secondaries- it should at least boost hit on pods and maybe- MAYBE- reduce the lockon of the others very slightly (it is targeting telem, after all). I think the issue on live is seeing numbers stacked so densely that you can barely read them over the explosion of the enemy.

 

, I think that increasing both Rate of Fire and damage itself at the same time

 

It doesn't matter which mechanics exactly they use. The point is, this ability is like +50% damage on blasters- it needs to be less. It could honestly be unlimited blaster fire during the duration, but the +50% needs to get lower. You can reduce the rate of fire, the damage bonus, the crit bonus... whatever.

 

 

where both BO & TT get silly and cause the whined about fast kills, is multi-cooldown pops alongside Concentrated Fire

 

It's good without that, but that certainly is a big deal. The big synergy is the combination of "+36% crit" combined with "+25% crit damage". Those two stack very well.

 

 

For every other situation, concentrated fire doesn't seem that great. If anything, I'd like a balance pass that makes this cool power worth using more, but a decent number of copilot abiilties fall into that.

 

After taking a look, the only thing that cause an over synergy between both abilities, is TT crit talent. Should probably turned into Slug's.

 

No, it's more than that. That's what pops out at you! The problem is just, it's all too much burst.

 

 

Fly all the damn ships

 

We do. And we would definitely like to see some changes. Strike buffs among them, but these scout nerfs are needed and don't have the conversation about them that they should.

[Altheran]

No, it's more than that. That's what pops out at you! The problem is just, it's all too much burst.

 

I know. What I meant however, is that it is the only "talent" that brings some kind of additional synergy, which is inciting to use both at the same time.

That is typically what should be avoided first.

 

About, the crit on secondary weapons... (Sorry for the absence of double quote)

It's true it's not "Blaster Telemetry", but beside Rocket Pods, they're not aimed actually.

How homing things can hit "better" is a rather strange concept.

But whatever. The reasoning is rather "is that okay to have a Cluster hitting like a Concussion after all the bonus already granted to the shots ?"

Edited July 6, 2014 by Altheran

[Verain]

Protons can crit, and are homing missiles.

Ions can crit, and are homing missiles. Heck, they can crit shields which makes literally NO sense at all.

 

 

The idea of the critical strike is as reasonable for a homing missile as it is for a rocket pod- the strike simply hits somewhere better.

 

 

 

I don't think that's the core problem tbh, though I wouldn't be opposed to removing crit from TT entirely. I think the real issue is the boost to crit damage that it provides as well.

[Slivovidze]

/whine..... Let me guess... You use Disto Field (-20% to your shield) and Lightweight Armor (9% evasion instead of I dunno.... 15% hull) You take every single components that boost evasion and then cry when a shot suddenly pas through. Instead try to use.... Directionnal maybe?? Or StE with Shield boost?? And... God forbid it, Reinforced Armor?? Yup... scout aren't forced to be squishy. You chose to be... Not the same.

 

I actually do S2E with shield boost and god forbid reinforced armor. And I fly the Nova, not the cattlescout. But that is kinda irrelevant for the purpose of the thread.

 

2) I do agree that Targeting Telemetry + Concentrated Fire is too bursty. I believe everyone (Gunships too) should have a chance to react to being attacked before they get red-hulled or destroyed.

 

Why should they have a chance to react to being attacked before getting red-hulled or destroyed, while I don't have any against their attacks?

 

...

 

Pretty much everything this guy said. Funny that I, the average Joe pilot, can with more or less success counter everything without feeling like stuff needs to be nerfed, a top-notch pilot of Verain's magnitude feels a need for nerfs. Hell, I can survive those bursty freaks in a god damn Comet Breaker! If they take ship that shuts you down, take a ship that will shut them down. I think there is not "beat all" ship in GSF. Even the T1 gunships aren't like that.

 

A good gunship can't be "snuck up on". The thing is if you are closing on a gunship, he's shooting at you, shooting at someone else, or not shooting.

 

By "sneak on" I meant the miment when he is shooting someone else. When that happens I assume I have that "sneak attack" advantage - the second to land that one burst and hopefully kill him.

 

 

 

After all, what I'm trying to do here is to express my fear of NovaDive and Blackbolt getting hit by the nerfhammer aimed on the Flashfire and Sting. I mean, Nova is bursty, too, but half as bursty as the cattlescout and don't tell me that you feel like Nova and Blackbolt are OP.

[Ramalina]

After all, what I'm trying to do here is to express my fear of NovaDive and Blackbolt getting hit by the nerfhammer aimed on the Flashfire and Sting. I mean, Nova is bursty, too, but half as bursty as the cattlescout and don't tell me that you feel like Nova and Blackbolt are OP.

 

With mastered ships and a really good pilot there's actually not much of a difference. Enough burst to kill before the target can meaningfully react is too much burst, whether it's 10% too much damage or 30% too much damage. Leaving aside that the type 2's problems are almost as much excessive build synergy as they are too much damage.

 

Type one scouts call for less detuning than type 2s do, so nerfs that hit both equally and get the type 2s, "just right," will leave the type 1s feeling perhaps a bit underpowered in comparison.

 

In theory, that should be fine, and be compensated by some form of reconnaissance based utility but recon has very little value in GSF right now. Even if you let type 1s pick up an exclusive 100% increase on both sensors and comms I'm not sure if that would be enough to make the compensation feel adequate for most people (Though for coordinated premade v premade battles it could be game changing. Problem is, that's a very rare event in GSF queues).

 

If the type one is still strong enough after nerfs to force a gunship to flee, and keep on fleeing then the type ones are probably still in decent shape as far as offensive power, even if their probability of a kill on a surprised gunship declines significantly. The design does seem to call for them to give up some offensive power in trade for utility.

[AceFirstCav]

As long as GS and bombers are set as they are now, there is no need to change anything on scouts. This seems like attempt to make from GS even greater annoyance for game.

Some boost for Strikes to help them shot down GS would be nice of course, here I totally agree.

 

Add to the game some kind of warning that GS is aiming on you and debate about TT/BO can be opened.

 

GS has lots of time to run away before anyone (except another GS) get in to adequate range to even start shooting. Moreover in combination with distortion field it have very good chance to survive surprising attack (which can already happen only if GS pilot make a mistake) and react.

 

In any thread dealing with objections agains GS is usuall answer (if we skip classics "L2P") approximately this:

"If you have problem with GS, take Scout."

If scouts would be less effective against GS, one of last arguments of dedicated GS pilots is lost. Think carefully before any request for nerf

[Fractalsponge]

As long as GS and bombers are set as they are now, there is no need to change anything on scouts. This seems like attempt to make from GS even greater annoyance for game.

Some boost for Strikes to help them shot down GS would be nice of course, here I totally agree.

 

Add to the game some kind of warning that GS is aiming on you and debate about TT/BO can be opened.

 

GS has lots of time to run away before anyone (except another GS) get in to adequate range to even start shooting. Moreover in combination with distortion field it have very good chance to survive surprising attack (which can already happen only if GS pilot make a mistake) and react.

 

In any thread dealing with objections agains GS is usuall answer (if we skip classics "L2P") approximately this:

"If you have problem with GS, take Scout."

If scouts would be less effective against GS, one of last arguments of dedicated GS pilots is lost. Think carefully before any request for nerf

 

Give me a break. The main danger of scouts to gunships isn't their offensive cooldowns - it's their boost efficiency, and the ability to stay on a gunship until its out of engine pool and forced to dogfight, where they lose due to much lower agility. The cooldowns just speed the inevitable kill along.

 

On the other hand, the cooldowns absolutely ARE the main threat to strikes, and it's what makes strikes not as efficient to take along in the first place. Strikes' higher survivability doesn't count for much when a battlescout opens up with all its offensive cooldowns, and all the other times their boost efficiency doesn't let them catch scouts to do much to them.

[Altheran]

Protons can crit, and are homing missiles.

Ions can crit, and are homing missiles. Heck, they can crit shields which makes literally NO sense at all.

 

 

The idea of the critical strike is as reasonable for a homing missile as it is for a rocket pod- the strike simply hits somewhere better.

 

 

 

I don't think that's the core problem tbh, though I wouldn't be opposed to removing crit from TT entirely. I think the real issue is the boost to crit damage that it provides as well.

Fair enough. They crit.

 

However, the question is still open : is it really needed ? Is it okay or is it too much ?

 

We're on the same boat for the crit amplitude, though...