The eternal Skill v Upgrades debate revisited.

[dancezwithnubz]

I rolled a new 'toon today* and have been taking 100% stock ships out for a spin.

 

Yes, i've been getting kills (which take a substantial amount more work than with a Mastered ship) and getting killed in turn.

First up, just to confirm what we all already know: Yes. Skill does, to a pretty decent extent, make up for a lack of upgrades.

But WOW, going from a tweaked, decked out Blackbolt back to a 100% stock model came as something of a surprise (it's been ~4 months since I last flew stock boats).

The differences in damage output, agility and all-round survivability are eye-opening when it happens in one hit rather than over a period of time as upgrades are built up.

 

Now, personally, I'm having a blast.

Base level rapid-fires & non-Meta shields on a Blackbolt certainly keep me on my toes.

Although being re-introduced to the joys of getting one-shot by Slug railguns is a little teeth-grinding.

 

I've also decided that 100% stock ships fare much, much better in Domination than in TDM. Almost to the point where I think nub players should have a ~15-30(?) match "grace period" of Domination only before being thrown into TDM.

 

I can't help thinking I'll eventually become a better pilot for the exercise.

 

So, anyone else taken stock ships out lately after an extended period in mastered boats?

 

(*Imperial Agent coz I wanna level to 55 THEN go do the ENTIRE Agent storyline in one hit.)

Edited July 3, 2014 by dancezwithnubz

[Asbetos]

Yup, rolled a few new toons lately and it's like going from a Ferrari into a Yugo. As a primarily Rycer pilot, I'm used to being able to kill anything except a bomber before my blaster power pool runs out, and on a stock 1 (switched RFLs for Quads ASAP, so not 100% stock, but close enough) it really takes ages to kill something. Turning is also a really "fun" thing... "Turn, turn, TURN dammit, oh s... sat fin".

 

I don't really find it fun, like I said at the start, like going from a Ferrari to a Yugo.

[Muljo_Stpho]

I don't have any mastered ships yet (and by no means could I lay claim to being an "ace") but I've run starfighter across a total of 8 my characters on Harbinger ranging from the 2 that I've been running the longest (who each have several ships unlocked and many upgrades purchased) to the 1 that I only just started running on the last couple days of doubled req gains. (4 of my characters in the middle of that range always fly paired up with a friend and we ran them pretty regularly over the last few weeks with the doubled req gains.) But I would say that my performance in this latest character's first dozen matches has been MUCH better than my performance when I first started. Yeah, without your upgrades you're a lot more fragile and it sometimes feels like you're slapping your enemies with a wet noodle when you attack them, but at the same time you know how to work the controls and how to maneuver a lot better than a brand new player does.

 

edit: I assumed that describing something as "stock" included switching components around. Even if it's a better tool for your style of play it still isn't comparable to a fully upgraded component. I'd consider drawing the line at calling something "stock" when your chosen components cannot be upgraded for cheaper than 5000 req. Do people normally mean it to strictly mean zero upgrades or changes of any sort?

Edited July 3, 2014 by Muljo_Stpho

[Magira]

Very different. I started the day before yesterday a new pilot on Bastion.

 

Flown I'm Mangler (TDM) and Blackbolt (Domination).

 

While the Mangler is already well configured and the Slug railgun also works fairly well without upgrades that Blackbolt is completely out configured and good for not much.

 

However, it goes fast with the upgrades if you know where the priorities are. Only the will not know a beginner.

[dancezwithnubz]

edit: I assumed that describing something as "stock" included switching components around.

 

nope.

 

When I say 'Stock' I mean: "as it comes the very first time you get in the cockpit for any given 'toon".

So for a Blackbolt, that's Rapids, 'Pods, Quick Charge Shields, Barrel Roll, Booster Recharge, et. al.

[SammyGStatus]

Skill > Upgrades vs pilots who aren't aces

Skill & upgrades = just as important for ace vs ace fights (still would say edge to skill)

 

Knowing what you're doing is important, as is your arsenal. I've even been accused of hacking using stock ships. Knowing how to play and when to fight vs when to flee is more important than gear for a majority of the time. The remaining time is when you're up against good pilots, and instances of 4 good pilots vs 4 good pilots + 8 pugs (4 per side), gear matters a lot more, but knowing how to use the components is still, imo, more vital. You're able to do more with more gear, but without the fundamentals, you're screwed!

[Verain]

I don't think it's a debate. At this point, many aces have played on alts, and have played stock ships new in some cases. Almost no ship is truly stock- maybe your first three games or so- but after that you normally have a ship with a few correct pieces, the lower cooldown on whatever your engine break is, and you can use that to transfer a little bit of ship req so you can buy those cheap and vital upgrades. Or if you don't, you still don't play more than about three games without, for instance, 20 second barrel roll.

 

 

The later upgrades take a much longer time and represent more of a choice.

 

 

Being on an unupgraded ship is a disadvantage. It's nowhere close to the disadvantage of being a new player. Many of the players who rant about gear differences have sub fifteen percent accuracy rates, for instance.

[MaximilianPower]

While the Mangler is already well configured and the Slug railgun also works fairly well without upgrades that Blackbolt is completely out configured and good for not much.

 

Relatively speaking I suppose this is true (compared to other ships' stock weaponery, that is), but man, the base slug I ran with yesterday took me by surprise. More specifically, I was surprised at how many shots it took to actually blow up a turret. Felt neutered without the armor piercing.

 

Still ended up doing a fair amount of damage overall, and I think I contributed to the team's win. I definitely agree that running stock ships provides a new and interesting challenge.

[Verain]

The unupgraded slug is very bad- any railgun is ludicrous with a 3 second charge, but the lack of armor piercing really hurts gunshipping.

 

It's hard to say what the worst ship is unupgraded, to be honest. I mean, everyone is missing their cool stuff, but some ships start with really ludicrous stuff. I wouldn't put the blackbolt on the awful list- the only really bad thing it has is rapid fire, which at 0 upgrades isn't that much worse than burst or light at 0 upgrades. It still has pods, and it still has barrel roll, and the baseline booster recharge makes up for the fact that the ship can't go anywhere without the thruster/engine upgrades it doesn't have.

 

Stock Rycer has heavies, which, sans armor piercing, are really weak, and k-turn, which is not a good turn, k or otherwise. I'd say stock Rycer is weaker than stock Blackbolt, relative to what they eventually become.

[Storm-Cutter]

Me too. I started taking advantage of 2xXP and got through the intro, daily and weekly for one of my other characters who has been at level 32 for about 2 years - The XP & credits from GSF was too good to miss. - Great for levelling toons between class missions!

 

1-shot from gunships soon showed how much the upgrades are mitigating some of the damage - so I'm flying my beloved scout a bit more cautiously - But still having a blast. - Thank goodness for the req bonuses and the handy CCs at the end of the month to convert some req from the other stock ships to the scout. -Now I'm at grade 1-2 for all the most important upgrades - though still several places below my normal position in the leaderboard. ( a place or 2 under the Aces)

 

Good fun. Upgrades certainly take the edge off - but then so does youth and experience! ( have the latter but not the former!)

 

Come fly with Henry-Nye (Prgenitor) in the next couple of weeks. - See you out in the black!

Edited July 3, 2014 by Storm-Cutter

[Muljo_Stpho]

On that latest character of mine that I started flying with, the first or second match was a deathmatch and I jumped into a gunship. I ended up doing something that I hadn't often bothered to do before that: toggling back and forth between my secondary weapons. Usually before this, I wouldn't really think to switch off of plasma or slug to use my ion at all. But I saw in that match how an ion blast plus a slug or two was putting some serious holes in the opposition.

 

Of course it didn't help the other team that most of them seemed to be fairly new and a lot of my team were also in gunships, so we were all covering each other and not really giving them a chance to chase any of us away. Still, I pulled off 6 kills and 9 assists in that match, which is actually a bit above average for me.

[Asbetos]

I only slug first against scouts since there's a chance of 1-shotting them if it crits. For everything else, ion first, makes them much easier to hit and it still takes the same number of shots to kill.

[DanNV]

I've been saying this since launch of GSF. Mods make too much of a difference. I've all but quit playing. Getting stomped in stock ships isn't fun and rolling right over people in stock ships with my max'd or close to max'd ships isn't fun either. The devs figured it out with ground PVP and then went and made all the same mistakes in GSF. Makes yah wonder....

[LilSaihah]

I've been saying this since launch of GSF. Mods make too much of a difference. I've all but quit playing. Getting stomped in stock ships isn't fun and rolling right over people in stock ships with my max'd or close to max'd ships isn't fun either. The devs figured it out with ground PVP and then went and made all the same mistakes in GSF. Makes yah wonder....

 

I don't think the mods are that big of a problem. They are a problem, someone with a fully modded ship has huge advantages over someone with a stock ship, but the difference in kind that an established player has in their ship roster causes is far worse than the difference in scale that stock vs mastered ships has.

 

The Novadive requires a large pile of upgrades before it can counter things like bombers. The Star Guard doesn't bring anything special to the table at all. I think that's where the real divide comes in.

Edited July 4, 2014 by LilSaihah

[dancezwithnubz]

slight update: I've done a few modest upgrades on the Blackbolt & acquired myself an Imperium (decided to leave out off the obvious battlescout for the moment on this 'toon).

 

Getting the basic meta components on the Blackbolt (Distortion Field & something other than Rapids (I use LC)), a key crewmember (BLIZZ!) & the Ignore Armour upgrade on rocket pods really beefs that little boat up.

 

It's not a sport'bolt, yet, but handles basically the same and just lacks the second lock break.

 

From Stock to Well-Set-Up for the expenditure of a mighty 5,500 Ship Requisition (and 1,250 fleet req).

 

Should have screenied it, but managed 8-19-2 & 60k damage in a match, then had a teammate complain he was 'carrying' the rest of us...

Edited July 5, 2014 by dancezwithnubz

[Muljo_Stpho]

It seems like the majority of cases where someone on the team has been mouthing off at the rest of the team, I look at their numbers at the end of the match and they're usually below the average performance of the rest of the team. Yes, oh great and mighty guy with 1 kill, 2 assists, 10 deaths, and 5% hit rate; please show us how it's done! (Or they could, I don't know, actually play the game instead of stopping to spew verbal excrement every 10 seconds.) Edited July 6, 2014 by Muljo_Stpho

[dancezwithnubz]

The pilot in question DID top the table with a respectable 20+ kills and ~2(?) assists.

In a mastered gunship.

I just found the whine afterwards to be a little off-putting and totally uncalled for.

I'll be the last to complain about "kill-stealing", as far as I'm concerned if you have a shot at an enemy, take it.

It's just that contributing 60k damage would tend to suggest one is pulling one's weight, no?

 

 

edit: for all those who've been playing a while, i seriously recommend going back to stock. i'm learning a lot more about my ships and am finding i'm doing better on my main 'toons.

Edited July 6, 2014 by dancezwithnubz