Kaggath Battlegrounds Heats - Chirikyat Ascendancy vs Republic Resistance

[StarSquirrel]

any time Battle Meditation is being used. So for most of the time completely. There may be rare times when he can use it but most of the time its just not going to be usable.

No, because the Light can't be everywhere at once or Nomi would literally die of force exhaustion. She can only affect her own troops with Battle Med anyway so until one of them reaches Kun he is free to do as much sorcery as he wants.

 

If he is leading a battle opposite Sunrider (ala Aleema Keto) then Nomi can disrupt his sorcery. But if he is half a planet away sitting on a Nexus of Dark Side energy he can have free reign.

 

I see people's responses about Kun's arrogance and tendency not to ask for help in a duel. Thing is, he only does that in fights he absolutely knows he can win. If, at any point something goes wrong for him or someone intervenes he calls his army in and withdraws. Go back and look, he does it at least twice iirc.

 

And the points about Kun's varied saber are important. As skilled as Windu is, we know variable length sabers were unseen among the PT jedi. Horn builds one of the very few ever constructed after Kun's and that's several thousand years later. With Windu's hyper-aggressive style, falling victim to Kun's trickery is possible.

 

Also, might the Dark Side Nexus's power and Kun's aggressiveness overload Windu and force him to the Dark Side?

 

And, could Windu's dark feelings that come out during his Vaapad fights feedback into Nomi's Battle Med and make it impossible for either him to use Vaapad or her to use Battle Med? He needs to draw on the darkness to make the loop Vaapad requires to work, but with Battle Med repressing them and Windu actively fighting it could that cause the loss of both abilities in a fight. To top it all off, would the loss of Battle Med in a Dark Side Nexus cause Windu to fall?

 

And, what defense (if any) does Windu have towards Force Blast?

Edited July 9, 2014 by StarSquirrel

[StarSquirrel]

So then is his ability to make terrible monsters severely hampered?

 

Nope, Battle Med is an exhausting ability that requires intense concentration and drains the user. She can't maintain it for more than a few hours it takes to fight a battle.

[tunewalker]

No, because the Light can't be everywhere at once or Nomi would literally die of force exhaustion. She can only affect her own troops with Battle Med anyway so until one of them reaches Kun he is free to do as much sorcery as he wants.

 

If he is leading a battle opposite Sunrider (ala Aleema Keto) then Nomi can disrupt his sorcery. But if he is half a planet away sitting on a Nexus of Dark Side energy he can have free reign.

 

I see people's responses about Kun's arrogance and tendency not to ask for help in a duel. Thing is, he only does that in fights he absolutely knows he can win. If, at any point something goes wrong for him or someone intervenes he calls his army in and withdraws. Go back and look, he does it at least twice iirc.

 

And the points about Kun's varied saber are important. As skilled as Windu is, we know variable length sabers were unseen among the PT jedi. Horn builds one of the very few ever constructed after Kun's and that's several thousand years later. With Windu's hyper-aggressive style, falling victim to Kun's trickery is possible.

 

Also, might the Dark Side Nexus's power and Kun's aggressiveness overload Windu and force him to the Dark Side?

 

And, could Windu's dark feelings that come out during his Vaapad fights feedback into Nomi's Battle Med and make it impossible for either him to use Vaapad or her to use Battle Med? He needs to draw on the darkness to make the loop Vaapad requires to work, but with Battle Med repressing them and Windu actively fighting it could that cause the loss of both abilities in a fight. To top it all off, would the loss of Battle Med in a Dark Side Nexus cause Windu to fall?

 

Only when he knows he can win? and he believes he has no equal in combat so he believes he can always win a 1v1 confrentation. AKA always in a 1v1 Confrentation. I highly doubt he will even begin to believe he is losing in 1v1 till he has already lost.

 

The rest of it I would say YA your right except on the Vaapad. Vaapad accepts aggression and darkness. The opponent is still using Dark side AND agression Vaapad is not negatively affected by Battle Meditation, Windu fought with Yoda using it quite a few times and is never negatively effected. So no doesnt work that way.

 

 

You have a point about the sorcery when no one is around thing.

Edited July 9, 2014 by tunewalker

[StarSquirrel]

Only when he knows he can win? and he believes he has no equal in combat so he believes he can always win a 1v1 confrentation. AKA always in a 1v1 Confrentation. I highly doubt he will even begin to believe he is losing in 1v1 till he has already lost.

 

The rest of it I would say YA your right except on the Vaapad. Vaapad accepts aggression and darkness. The opponent is still using Dark side AND agression Vaapad is not negatively affected by Battle Meditation, Windu fought with Yoda using it quite a few times and is never negatively effected. So no doesnt work that way.

 

 

You have a point about the sorcery when no one is around thing.

 

Like I said, if anyone interferes with his duel he'll bail. If a Jedi strike team shows up and Mace doesn't try to 1v1 him then Kun is calling in the army and the last time Mace took on a Sith Lord he didn't 1v1 he called in allies to help. Odds are, a similar situation will occur assuming for one crazy moment that they even reach Kun. There is still no word on how they could do that.

 

As for Vaapad, read wookieepedia again,

 

"it was a state of mind that led through the penumbra of the dark side, requiring the user to enjoy the fight, and relish the satisfaction of winning. The practitioner of Vaapad would accept the fury of their opponent, transforming them into one half of a superconducting loop, with the other half being the power of darkness inherent in the opponent.[12] The form was also mentioned with a cautionary warning by the Jedi that use of Vaapad led the user perilously close to the dark side due to its focus on physical combat"'

 

Yes Tune, it inherently accepts the very Dark the Battle Meditation is trying to weed out. The two can't coexist, and I don't recall Yoda Battle Meditating for Windu while they sparred, not to mention Yoda doesn't have a lot of dark to express in a fight meaning Vaapad as a form isn't inherently bad with Battle Med (its like Juyo as far as forms go) but as a mindset and power it doesn't mesh.

[Aurbere]

Guys, guys, leave the Mace vs. Exar Kun discussion to the expert, OK?

 

Just kidding. Kinda, sorta. OK, I'm posting my own analysis tomorrow (hopefully).

[tunewalker]

Like I said, if anyone interferes with his duel he'll bail. If a Jedi strike team shows up and Mace doesn't try to 1v1 him then Kun is calling in the army and the last time Mace took on a Sith Lord he didn't 1v1 he called in allies to help. Odds are, a similar situation will occur assuming for one crazy moment that they even reach Kun. There is still no word on how they could do that.

 

As for Vaapad, read wookieepedia again,

 

"it was a state of mind that led through the penumbra of the dark side, requiring the user to enjoy the fight, and relish the satisfaction of winning. The practitioner of Vaapad would accept the fury of their opponent, transforming them into one half of a superconducting loop, with the other half being the power of darkness inherent in the opponent.[12] The form was also mentioned with a cautionary warning by the Jedi that use of Vaapad led the user perilously close to the dark side due to its focus on physical combat"'

 

Yes Tune, it inherently accepts the very Dark the Battle Meditation is trying to weed out. The two can't coexist, and I don't recall Yoda Battle Meditating for Windu while they sparred, not to mention Yoda doesn't have a lot of dark to express in a fight meaning Vaapad as a form isn't inherently bad with Battle Med (its like Juyo as far as forms go) but as a mindset and power it doesn't mesh.

 

Yes thats what it does, Battle meditation doesnt cut out dark completely though

 

"Conversely, a Sith sorcerer's concentration was able to be interrupted by Force-users skilled in the art of Jedi battle meditation,[41] and their magical creations could be undone by pure manifestations of the light side of the Force.[3][42]"

 

"With sufficient concentration, a Jedi—such as you or I—can strengthen the hopes of our allies and heighten the fears of our enemies…thus,what the armies know in their hearts MUST become true…because they believe it so strongly."

 

"Every soldier knows that war is more than arms and armor, every warrior carries an image of impending victory in his heart. When the image shatters, to be replaced by defeat, he is beaten. But sometimes a warrior receives assistance from an unexpected source, an in-rush of light, blasting away his fear and despair, releasing new inner strength! Yes, a war is much more than arms and armor. Half of every conflict is the will to win. We are Jedi. We must recognize that the will to win, and the power of war, are given sometimes by the dark side. And sometimes, as dawn throws back the night, victory is given…by the light!"

 

Its not cutting off darkness its breaking wills and strengthening wills and those broken wills and strengthened will break sith spells. It does nothing to interfere with some one pulling on dark side effects other then sorcery. It does nothing to stop some one like windu from accepting it and creating his super conducting loop. It just breaks wills and enforces them strong enough to make sorcery impossible.

 

 

Also Like I said, they can get passed the Massassi and sungaurd with a few jedi likely unnoticed. The Terentatek though will assuredly notice them, but Mace and Company may be able to fight past them. By the time Windu Gets there YES he will have people with him, but Kun's forces may already know and they will be preocuppied with that, while both Windu and Kun will just look at each other and Windu will walk up to him and basically pull the whole

 

 

"in the name of the Republic you are under arrest" and then they have a fight, chaos around them but neither calling for help any where else litterally just focused on each other.

 

 

Is this close and can it be stopped.... yes absolutely, but thus far TO ME... this has been the best laid out way to actually KILL a leader ship.... there has been little to 0 mention of way to finish Nomi aside from just winning the war, and while that is assuredly a possibility. We need to explore more if I am to be conviced the CA can win.

Edited July 9, 2014 by tunewalker

[StarSquirrel]

"thus,what the armies know in their hearts MUST become true…because they believe it so strongly."

 

"When the image shatters, to be replaced by defeat, he is beaten. But sometimes a warrior receives assistance from an unexpected source, an in-rush of light, blasting away his fear and despair, releasing new inner strength!

 

We must recognize that the will to win, and the power of war, are given sometimes by the dark side. And sometimes, as dawn throws back the night, victory is given…by the light!"

It amplifies the traits force users (and people in general) draw on according to these selected sections of your quotes.

 

If Mace is using Vaapad, then the darkness inside (the fear or anger) is amplified. If the fear is amplified, Mace can be crippled as Battle Med starts to turn against him, breaking his will. If anger is amplified, his fall to the Darkside would be quick and complete.

 

Either way, Battle Med isn't a "pick and choose" ability, but rather a blanket. As such you have to take the good and the bad together. If Mace is using Dark abilities it will amplify or break dark abilities with no inbetween.

 

Plus, Nomi doesn't have the fine control to walk the line that Mace does, so she lacks the skill to modulate the Battle Med enough to help Mace without destroying him one way or another.

 

Edit: that middle quote also supports my position that he can't use Vaapad at all with Battle Med

Edited July 9, 2014 by StarSquirrel

[tunewalker]

It amplifies the traits force users (and people in general) draw on according to these selected sections of your quotes.

 

If Mace is using Vaapad, then the darkness inside (the fear or anger) is amplified. If the fear is amplified, Mace can be crippled as Battle Med starts to turn against him, breaking his will. If anger is amplified, his fall to the Darkside would be quick and complete.

 

Either way, Battle Med isn't a "pick and choose" ability, but rather a blanket. As such you have to take the good and the bad together. If Mace is using Dark abilities it will amplify or break dark abilities with no inbetween.

 

Plus, Nomi doesn't have the fine control to walk the line that Mace does, so she lacks the skill to modulate the Battle Med enough to help Mace without destroying him one way or another.

 

Edit: that middle quote also supports my position that he can't use Vaapad at all with Battle Med

 

Again no.

 

Dark siders use battle Meditation as well. It doesnt limit the abilities of their allies simply because its increases their will to fight and makes the enemies will worse. If it in any way was Dark/ Light specific this wouldnt be the case and a Dark sider could never use it.

 

Thats not the case however and you know it. Stop it..... It bolsters allies doesnt matter if ally is light or dark it bolsters them and their will to fight. It weakens enemies and their will to fight and weakens their concentration. With that weakened concentration and will it makes preforming Sorcery impossible. That's all there is to it.

 

 

Edit:

 

Darth Caedus[1]

Palpatine[11]

Joruus C'baoth[14]

Alema Rar[1]

Naga Sadow[22]

 

Just a small list of SOME FAMOUS dark siders to use Battle Meditation to bolster DARK SIDE allies and weaken LIGHT SIDE enemies. Its not dark side light side discriminatory, its Ally, enemy discriminatory.

 

 

Edit 2: ok going to go calm down now have fun guys .

Edited July 9, 2014 by tunewalker

[StarSquirrel]

Again no.

 

Dark siders use battle Meditation as well. It doesnt limit the abilities of their allies simply because its increases their will to fight and makes the enemies will worse. If it in any way was Dark/ Light specific this wouldnt be the case and a Dark sider could never use it.

 

Thats not the case however and you know it. Stop it..... It bolsters allies doesnt matter if ally is light or dark it bolsters them and their will to fight. It weakens enemies and their will to fight and weakens their concentration. With that weakened concentration and will it makes preforming Sorcery impossible. That's all there is to it.

 

 

Edit:

 

Darth Caedus[1]

Palpatine[11]

Joruus C'baoth[14]

Alema Rar[1]

Naga Sadow[22]

 

Just a small list of SOME FAMOUS dark siders to use Battle Meditation to bolster DARK SIDE allies and weaken LIGHT SIDE enemies. Its not dark side light side discriminatory, its Ally, enemy discriminatory.

I'll concede the idea that Battle Meditation would cause harm or hinder Windu

 

I do not, however concede the point that a Jedi's Battle Meditation is a flooding of the Light Side into the troops to boost their morale and stamina as well as manipulation of their mind. In Windu's case, this means Battle Meditation would purge him of the negative feelings he'd need to embrace. He'd have the choice of Vaapad or Battle Meditation.

 

As for Sith Battle Meditation. It is a perversely twisted version of Battle Meditation that is more akin to mass mind control. It is also much more difficult to use and works best when used against opponent's darker emotions (like fear) which is why Jacen could more easily control Fondor's army than his own fleet.

 

As much as you deny it, the Dark and Light versions are very different...

Edited July 9, 2014 by StarSquirrel

[LadyKulvax]

Nomi is sat in the Great Temple which will boost her already unmatched skill in Battle Meditation possibly two fold and as far as her ability to maintain it goes, if she could use Battle Meditation whilst fighting at the same time for an entire day then surely when in a completely meditative state she can easily keep Battle Meditation going for days possibly even weeks.

 

Also note that her skill in BM managed to keep a trillion people in a tranquil state long enough for the senate to ajourn (likely a few decades... i kid i kid.) Then effecting less than 10,000 beings should be infinitely easier for her.

 

I don't think Force Exhaustion is likely to come into effect as she survived 72 hours against Sion and a number of Dark Jedi on a strong Dark Side Nexus using Force Valor.. so there is that.

 

As far as effecting Vaapad, I believe the way Vaapad works would negate the effects of Battle Meditation on him entirely now I really think about it, it is a mix of Light Side and Dark Side, Light Side is what he uses to genuinely empower himself, the Dark Side is what is moving in and out of him and rebounding against Kun, his own inner Darkness is something he channels into this and thus removes from himself.

 

As Windu states he essentially releases this energy in a positive manner which is why the only time he is even suggested to be coming closer to the Dark Side than ever is when he faced Sidious directly drawing on the Dark Lord's rage, drew completely on his own inner darkness giving himself over to it completely and then drew on Anakin's own fear as well, something we all agreed he would not reach in this case.

 

As far as being caught off guard by Kun's lightsaber, he faced a far more unpredictable opponent in Sidious, a superior duellist himself whom ambidextrously switched between forms on a whim and he still matched him blow for blow and defeated him.

 

Let us not also forget about Shatterpoint here.

Edited July 9, 2014 by LadyKulvax

[StarSquirrel]

Nomi is sat in the Great Temple which will boost her already unmatched skill in Battle Meditation possibly teo fold and as far as her ability to maintain it goes, if she could use Battle Meditation whilst fighting at the same time for an entire day then surely when in a completely meditative state she can easily keep Battle Meditation going for days possibly even weeks.

 

Also note that her skill in BM managed to keep a trillion people in a tranquil state long enough for the senate to ajourn (likely a few decades... i kid i kid.) Then effecting less than 10,000 beings should be infinitely easier for her.

 

I don't think Force Exhaustion is likely to come into effect as she survived 72 hours against Sion and a number of Dark Jedi on a strong Dark Side Nexus using Force Valor.. so there is that.

 

As far as effecting Vaapad, I believe the way Vaapad works would negate the effects of Battle Meditation on him entirely now I really think about it, it is a mix of Light Side and Dark Side, Liggt Side is what he uses to genuinely empower himself, the Dark Side is what is moving in and out of him and rebounding against Kun, his own inner Darkness is something he channels into this and thus removes from himself.

 

As Windu states he essentially releases this energy in a positive manner which is why the only time he is even suggested to be coming closer to the Dark Side than ever is when he faced Sidious directly drawing on the Dark Lord's rage, drew completely on his own inner darkness giving himself over to it completely and then drew on Anakin's own fear as well, something we all agreed he would not reach in this case.

 

As far as being caught off guard by Kun's lightsaber, he faced a far more unpredictable opponent in Sidious, a superior duellist himself whom ambidextrously switched between forms on a whim and he still matched him blow for blow and defeated him.

 

Let us not also forget about Shatterpoint here.

The Great Temple doesn't help her Battle Meditation in any way. She's had things to help her channel before, the Great Temple is hardly unique and it certainly won't make it "ten times as powerful".

 

And no, aside from Sidious (who was draining the life force of a planet) no one was ever able to keep Battle Meditation going more more than a few hours at a time. Stop giving her powers she doesn't possess. Besides, she has to meditate to get Battle Meditation anyways, is this some super meditation we've never seen before?

 

I still haven't seen the source for that Sion battle, and even then I'm very wary that she was using Battle Meditation through the entire thing.

 

And no, he embraces the Dark. Says so in every description of Vaapad. He doesn't "remove it from himself".

 

And the loop runs straight through Windu, it isn't like a wall but rather a conduit. He sends it back amplified, not rebounding it off himself. He channels it through himself, hence why it can lead a jedi to fall to the Darkside.

 

As for the Sidious fight, switching forms and switching the actual length of your blade is very, very different and you know it.

 

And what exactly will Shatterpoint do here? As far as I recall, every person capable of using Shatterpoint has had difficulty using it in combat and each has lost a duel at some point,

 

Mace didn't see Anakin as a Shatterpoint? Traya couldn't stop the Exile? Jacen couldn't stop Jaina... you get the picture. As far as duels go Shatterpoint has never been a particularly useful ability.

Edited July 9, 2014 by StarSquirrel

[tunewalker]

The Great Temple doesn't help her Battle Meditation in any way. She's had things to help her channel before, the Great Temple is hardly unique and it certainly won't make it "ten times as powerful".

 

And no, aside from Sidious (who was draining the life force of a planet) no one was ever able to keep Battle Meditation going more more than a few hours at a time. Stop giving her powers she doesn't possess. Besides, she has to meditate to get Battle Meditation anyways, is this some super meditation we've never seen before?

 

I still haven't seen the source for that Sion battle, and even then I'm very wary that she was using Battle Meditation through the entire thing.

 

And no, he embraces the Dark. Says so in every description of Vaapad. He doesn't "remove it from himself".

 

And the loop runs straight through Windu, it isn't like a wall but rather a conduit. He sends it back amplified, not rebounding it off himself. He channels it through himself, hence why it can lead a jedi to fall to the Darkside.

 

As for the Sidious fight, switching forms and switching the actual length of your blade is very, very different and you know it.

 

And what exactly will Shatterpoint do here? As far as I recall, every person capable of using Shatterpoint has had difficulty using it in combat and each has lost a duel at some point,

 

Mace didn't see Anakin as a Shatterpoint? Traya couldn't stop the Exile? Jacen couldn't stop Jaina... you get the picture. As far as duels go Shatterpoint has never been a particularly useful ability.

 

You are correct, switching forms and switching blade lengths is very different. Swapping forms is more difficult to predict and handle.

[Silenceo]

You are correct, switching forms and switching blade lengths is very different. Swapping forms is more difficult to predict and handle.

 

I can not remember the exact book nor do I have a quote...though I do remember the scene...

 

It was between Corran Horn and a Vong Warrior. If I remember right, it was an ice world. He had his blade at normal length and pointed at a warrior as if in challenge. Then he extended the blade for instant kill.

 

As for this situation, it is not JUST the varying blade length that I mean regarding Kun's lightsaber. I was also referring to its ability to sprout a blade out the back since it was, after all, essentially a staff saber with a much smaller hilt. (unless I am remembering the wrong sith lord?)

 

It is the combo of these two things that I believe could cause Mace Windu not to necessarily be on the back foot, but less likely to predict Kun's attacks.

[StarSquirrel]

You are correct, switching forms and switching blade lengths is very different. Swapping forms is more difficult to predict and handle.

 

No it isn't, especially if you know the forms inside and out like Mace does. They literally have to changes stances and attack angles etc, so if you know what to look for and are a stellar swordsman you can adjust to someone switching forms.

 

Different blade length is something that

A) You have to know they're capable of which Mace is not

B) There is virtually no time between the switch.

 

Also note that the length of both ends can be changed. An attack even by an expected move to the saberstaff mode that Mace could avoid would be lethal when the second blade is an extra meter long.

[LadyKulvax]

The Great Temple doesn't help her Battle Meditation in any way. She's had things to help her channel before, the Great Temple is hardly unique and it certainly won't make it "ten times as powerful".

 

And no, aside from Sidious (who was draining the life force of a planet) no one was ever able to keep Battle Meditation going more more than a few hours at a time. Stop giving her powers she doesn't possess. Besides, she has to meditate to get Battle Meditation anyways, is this some super meditation we've never seen before?

 

I still haven't seen the source for that Sion battle, and even then I'm very wary that she was using Battle Meditation through the entire thing.

 

And no, he embraces the Dark. Says so in every description of Vaapad. He doesn't "remove it from himself".

 

And the loop runs straight through Windu, it isn't like a wall but rather a conduit. He sends it back amplified, not rebounding it off himself. He channels it through himself, hence why it can lead a jedi to fall to the Darkside.

 

As for the Sidious fight, switching forms and switching the actual length of your blade is very, very different and you know it.

 

And what exactly will Shatterpoint do here? As far as I recall, every person capable of using Shatterpoint has had difficulty using it in combat and each has lost a duel at some point,

 

Mace didn't see Anakin as a Shatterpoint? Traya couldn't stop the Exile? Jacen couldn't stop Jaina... you get the picture. As far as duels go Shatterpoint has never been a particularly useful ability.

 

The Great Temple allows her to channel the Force in an easier way, that was the point of these temples. Also that was a typo I meant to state it may well make her twice as effective in this area.

 

I am not giving her anything feel free to ask Aurbere if you like what he has seen her BM do to armies before.. she stopped "mass rioting" on Coruscant from turning into a bloodbath and brought the population into a tranquil state, in her prime.

 

She was not using BM during her fight with Sion, that was Force Valor in her prime, she used BM whilst fighting during the Naddist revolt.

 

Honestly why are you so surprised? In nearly a dozen works is Nomi stated to be the most legendary practitioner of Battle Meditation, it isn't just hyperbole she was just the best at it.

 

Also the only genuine time we see him stated to embrace the Dark Side outside hyperbolic statements is during the arrest, in all his other fights using Vaapad it never states he 'embraces' the Dark Side, only ever does he allow it to be used in a looping manner. If he embraced the Dark Side every time he fought he would be Dark Side in no time.

 

The Sidious duel outright states that it was the closest he'd brought himself to the penumbra of the Dark Side ever and he still never fell to the Dark Side, you underestimate his mental resolve.

 

Allowing his inner darkness to fuel Vaapad is not the same as embracing the darkness in him.

 

Sidious' lightsaber techniqur is far far more unpredictable than a dual phase setting is and that is my point.

 

Take into account all the times he has fought an opponent using an unorthodox weapon and you will come to the conclusion that he wasn't a Weapon Master for nothing.

[StarSquirrel]

I can not remember the exact book nor do I have a quote...though I do remember the scene...

 

It was between Corran Horn and a Vong Warrior. If I remember right, it was an ice world. He had his blade at normal length and pointed at a warrior as if in challenge. Then he extended the blade for instant kill.

 

As for this situation, it is not JUST the varying blade length that I mean regarding Kun's lightsaber. I was also referring to its ability to sprout a blade out the back since it was, after all, essentially a staff saber with a much smaller hilt. (unless I am remembering the wrong sith lord?)

 

It is the combo of these two things that I believe could cause Mace Windu not to necessarily be on the back foot, but less likely to predict Kun's attacks.

 

Good points, also I think it was one of the NJO: Dark Tide books or NJO: Edge of Victory books but I can't be sure.

 

You're right though, that did happen.

[LadyKulvax]

No it isn't, especially if you know the forms inside and out like Mace does. They literally have to changes stances and attack angles etc, so if you know what to look for and are a stellar swordsman you can adjust to someone switching forms.

 

Different blade length is something that

A) You have to know they're capable of which Mace is not

B) There is virtually no time between the switch.

 

Also note that the length of both ends can be changed. An attack even by an expected move to the saberstaff mode that Mace could avoid would be lethal when the second blade is an extra meter long.

 

Mace had literally zero percent knowledge on Darth Sidious besides the fact he was the chancellor, no prior experience whatsoever.

 

Sidious ambidextrously switching his form at random and at the speed if 'jumping in and out of existence' has never been seen in any other lightsaber duellist ever, there is a reason he could kill, defeat and even toy with the likes of every single duellist he came across bar Windu, Luke and Yoda and that is because no one else was an experienced enough duellist to even have a viable counter.

 

Sidious slaughtered three of the best duellists in the order in seconds, why? his technique dumbfounded them, but not Mace Windu.

Edited July 9, 2014 by LadyKulvax

[StarSquirrel]

The Sidious duel outright states that it was the closest he'd brought himself to the penumbra of the Dark Side ever and he still never fell to the Dark Side, you underestimate his mental resolve.

 

Allowing his inner darkness to fuel Vaapad is not the same as embracing the darkness in him.

 

Sidious' lightsaber techniqur is far far more unpredictable than a dual phase setting is and that is my point.

 

Take into account all the times he has fought an opponent using an unorthodox weapon and you will come to the conclusion that he wasn't a Weapon Master for nothing.

My point is that since he gets so close to the Darkside, Nomi's Battle Meditation can't affect him since it uses the Light and if it flooded him with Light he'd lose his half of the loop.

 

How? Switching forms was common, especially by the Jedi of Windu's day who learned many different forms... It stands to reason form switching isn't hard for him to adjust to considering he was a Weapon Master of the Order. What Windu isn't used to, are the surprises of Kun's saber.

 

Care to elaborate? And has he ever seen this particular weapon?

Edited July 9, 2014 by StarSquirrel

[Silenceo]

Care to elaborate? And has he ever seen this particular weapon?

 

Other than Kun, I know of no other staff saber with such a small hilt, that also has the ability to adjust both ends blade length.

Edited July 9, 2014 by Silenceo

[LadyKulvax]

My point is that since he gets so close to the Darkside, Nomi's Battle Meditation can't affect him since it uses the Light and if it flooded him with Light he'd lose his half of the loop.

 

How? Switching forms was common, especially by the Jedi of Windu's day who learned many different forms... It stands to reason form switching isn't hard for him to adjust to considering he was a Weapon Master of the Order. What Windu isn't used to, are the surprises of Kun's saber.

 

Care to elaborate? And has he ever seen this particular weapon?

 

Which I agree with, BM would have no effect on him at all because the light and dark he uses simultaneously, they negate each other essentially.

 

Not nearly in the way Sidious could, he ambidextrously switched forms flawlessly and was so fast at it that he easily slaughtered master duellists, Kun's unpredictable weapon simply does not compare.

 

If you don't believe Sidious' form was far more unpredictable then I invite you to go and read up on how easily he dismantled all his opponents bar three.

 

Sidious was the epitome of Juyo practitioners and his speed at doing so defied his very own existence.

[StarSquirrel]

Which I agree with, BM would have no effect on him at all because the light and dark he uses simultaneously, they negate each other essentially.

 

Not nearly in the way Sidious could, he ambidextrously switched forms flawlessly and was so fast at it that he easily slaughtered master duellists, Kun's unpredictable weapon simply does not compare.

 

If you don't believe Sidious' form was far more unpredictable then I invite you to go and read up on how easily he dismantled all his opponents bar three.

 

Sidious was the epitome of Juyo practitioners and his speed at doing so defied his very own existence.

I'm glad we agree on Windu not gaining an advantage from BM in a duel with Kun. Actually I'm thrilled and very satisfied with our debate on that.

 

On the topic of Sidious's form changes being a measure for Windu's ability to counter surprises, I think we can agree to disagree. We're comparing apples to oranges. We're comparing very different variables and I don't think either of us will come to agree with each others position.

 

If you want to continue I will, but the fact is that I believe Kun's saber is something Windu has never seen and can't even expect. Even a near miss would be lethal to Mace in a fight against someone who can change the length of their blade and has 2 blades to do so with.

[Wolfninjajedi]

I'm glad we agree on Windu not gaining an advantage from BM in a duel with Kun. Actually I'm thrilled and very satisfied with our debate on that.

 

On the topic of Sidious's form changes being a measure for Windu's ability to counter surprises, I think we can agree to disagree. We're comparing apples to oranges. We're comparing very different variables and I don't think either of us will come to agree with each others position.

 

If you want to continue I will, but the fact is that I believe Kun's saber is something Windu has never seen and can't even expect. Even a near miss would be lethal to Mace in a fight against someone who can change the length of their blade and has 2 blades to do so with.

 

Well while Kun's saber isn't something he has never seen nor expect, that isn't really a big a issue. I mean Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan never have faced a double bladed saber that Maul had, yet they were able to hold their own against him together without it being much of an issue.

[Silenceo]

Well while Kun's saber isn't something he has never seen nor expect, that isn't really a big a issue. I mean Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan never have faced a double bladed saber that Maul had, yet they were able to hold their own against him together without it being much of an issue.

 

The key difference being Maul's could not change both blades lengths, as well as it had the weakness of most staffs which is the big target. Kun's on the other hand, could shift its blades lengths during combat, and in appearance it was that of a single bladed light saber. Not only did it have a smaller weak point for others to hit, but due to this different hilt size, its angles and application was vastly different from all other staff sabers. Other staffs were two handed, his was the ONLY one handed staff saber. I would dare say it is Unique.

 

Side Note: Oh, and Obi-wan and Quigon did not really "hold their own" once they were separated. Alone, without the other to help them on the defense, they were BOTH quickly overwhelmed and defeated. If Maul wasn't so arrogant, and plot armor was not around...

Edited July 9, 2014 by Silenceo

[Wolfninjajedi]

The key difference being Maul's could not change both blades lengths, as well as it had the weakness of most staffs which is the big target. Kun's on the other hand, could shift its blades lengths during combat, and in appearance it was that of a single bladed light saber. Not only did it have a smaller weak point for others to hit, but due to this different hilt size, its angles and application was vastly different from all other staff sabers. Other staffs were two handed, his was the ONLY one handed staff saber. I would dare say it is Unique.

 

Side Note: Oh, and Obi-wan and Quigon did not really "hold their own" once they were separated. Alone, without the other to help them on the defense, they were BOTH quickly overwhelmed and defeated. If Maul wasn't so arrogant, and plot armor was not around...

 

The point being is, it was still something that neither Qui-Gon nor Obi-Wan had ever faced before and they did fine together against Maul. That's the point, it was unkown to them. Sure Kun's saber staff is shorter and can be wielded one handed, but that's really it and to what extent can Kun increase his blade length?

 

 

That's why I said they held their own together, not separate.

Edited July 9, 2014 by Wolfninjajedi

[StarSquirrel]

The point being is, it was still something that neither Qui-Gon nor Obi-Wan had ever faced before and they did fine together against Maul. That's the point, it was unkown to them. Sure Kun's saber staff is shorter and can be wielded one handed, but that's really it and to what extent can Kun increase his blade length?

 

 

That's why I said they held their own together, not separate.

Wait, so getting put severely on the defensive then running away and later getting stabbed through the chest while your buddy barely survives, only due to the fact the other guy got cocky and had only half his saber is "fine"?

 

I'd hate to see what "bad" is for you Wolf .

 

I mean, Maul had half a saber and was totally surprised that Obi-wan didn't fall. How the hell does that say anything about their skill against a double bladed saber?

Edited July 9, 2014 by StarSquirrel