So sad too see so many players begging for content...

[Shadix]

Actually it does make it true for whoever is stating their opinion because they believe it to be, whether or not it's correct in reality or not is a different story. That's why Opinions are correct/true/right but not facts.

 

Please re-read what you've written. So very wrong.

 

Stop grasping at straws for the sake of "winning" an internet argument.

[mrekxxx]

or for any information about the future of swtor and bioware not reacting. They just dont communicate with the community in any way. How are we suppose to keep the faith in the game or the developement of it for the future? I still have plenty to do ingame (im in my fifth week now) and i allready unsubbed, because i dont want to play a game, where they dont know how to communicate to the community or how to improve/expand the game. They just dont have any plans it seems. And everything iss build arround the CM...im pretty sure, there will be a lot more items to buy there, once the housing addon iss out...but what about playable CONTENT? New Planets? New Warzones? New Classes? Switching to the new hero engine?

 

A sad customer...

 

PS: Sorry for my bad english...im from germany and i would have posted my complaints on the german boards, but they are allready dead...

 

unsub, resub next year, easy...

[Reno_Tarshil]

Please re-read what you've written. So very wrong.

 

Stop grasping at straws for the sake of "winning" an internet argument.

 

Thanks for proving my point.

 

In my opinion what I've said is correct and in your opinion what you've said is also correct. Thanks for the assist.

[apanbest]

Thanks for proving my point.

 

In my opinion what I've said is correct and in your opinion what you've said is also correct. Thanks for the assist.

 

Grats for 'winning' the argument, you must be so proud of yourself.

Edited June 29, 2014 by apanbest

[Reno_Tarshil]

Grats for 'winning' the argument, you must be so proud of yourself.

 

I am actually. I am proud of every gold star sticker I earn in life. I appreciate the congrats from you.

[Tsillah]

No, most of us count server activity. .

 

That is what we call an assumption. You can't possibly argue that most of us do that, especially since you don't know "most of us". Doesn't help your credibility to talk about facts when you make statements like this.

 

Not an opinion to look at raw numbers.

 

Ah but there's another problem here. Numbers by themselves are utterly useless. From my experience numbers mean nothing without context. It's always important to know what is being measured or counted as well as how and why.

 

Not saying you do this but I remember a thread where someone was claiming population numbers. I asked a few questions and found out he was basing his numbers on his fleet instance alone. So he then went back and counted all fleet instances. So I asked about the other planets, because there were people there as well playing. So he counted those. Then I said, well, what about pvp warzones, starfighter, fp's and ops. His conclusion was then that if I wanted it that precise it was impossible.

 

So let me ask you, how do you calculate your numbers? What exactly do you calculate, when and how?

[BeeblesTV]

Hey, just keep buying lockboxes and everything will be ok.

[Khevar]

Actually it does make it true for whoever is stating their opinion because they believe it to be, whether or not it's correct in reality or not is a different story. That's why Opinions are correct/true/right but not facts.

An opinion is about subjective things. Statements about that can be objectively proven true or false are NOT opinions. Just because someone makes a statement and prefaces it with "I think" (or something like that) doesn't make it an opinion.

 

Take two people, gossiping by the watercooler. One says, "You know Joan, in accounting? I think she's pregnant." The other says, "I'm pretty sure she isn't"

 

One of those two statements is true, and the other is false. Neither are opinions. There is nothing subjective here. An opinion in this case might be "Joan is too young to get pregnant, she should have waited."

[Reno_Tarshil]

An opinion is about subjective things. Statements about that can be objectively proven true or false are NOT opinions. Just because someone makes a statement and prefaces it with "I think" (or something like that) doesn't make it an opinion.

 

Take two people, gossiping by the watercooler. One says, "You know Joan, in accounting? I think she's pregnant." The other says, "I'm pretty sure she isn't"

 

One of those two statements is true, and the other is false. Neither are opinions. There is nothing subjective here. An opinion in this case might be "Joan is too young to get pregnant, she should have waited."

 

But it does make it in an opinion because when you preface it with I think you are only stating your opinion on the matter at current. Whether it can be proven true or false isn't important as it is still your individual opinion.

 

If you believe something to be true regardless of it being proven true or false it's still your opinion in the end.

[Khevar]

But it does make it in an opinion because when you preface it with I think

I suppose this is a semantic argument. But hey, I'm bored.

 

While it's always risky using the "bastion of internet accuracy" (), I borrowed this quote from wikipedia:

In general, an opinion is a judgment, viewpoint, or statement about matters commonly considered to be subjective, i.e. based on that which is less than absolutely certain, and is the result of emotion or interpretation of facts. What distinguishes fact from opinion is that facts are verifiable.

This speaks to your original point. An opinion cannot be proven false. Because it is subjective.

 

When you speak about objective truths, that can actually be proven true or false, you've left the realm of opinion.

 

"I think Joan IS pregnant" (if she isn't) can be demonstrably proven false. It's not a subjective matter. It isn't an opinion. "I think Joan LOOKS pregnant" is an opinion however, as it is describing a subjective viewpoint.

Edited June 29, 2014 by Khevar

[annabethchase]

numbers, such as the average on my fleet republic side at 8pm last week was 212. 6 months ago that figure was 267 are not opinions. Those are concrete facts. I wrote them down each night.

[BuriDogshin]

numbers, such as the average on my fleet republic side at 8pm last week was 212. 6 months ago that figure was 267 are not opinions. Those are concrete facts. I wrote them down each night.

The only thing those numbers show is the number of people doing next to nothing on the fleet. It says nothing about how many people are off leveling, doing ops, doing FPs, PvPing and so on. Heck, the number you are looking at would probably decrease as a result of faster Op, WZ and FP queue pops due to an increase in the number of active players. You do not and cannot know (BW can though).

 

So let us know if you have any data on the number of people doing something other than nothing in SWTOR.

[Savej]

The only thing those numbers show is the number of people doing next to nothing on the fleet. It says nothing about how many people are off leveling, doing ops, doing FPs, PvPing and so on. Heck, the number you are looking at would probably decrease as a result of faster Op, WZ and FP queue pops due to an increase in the number of active players. You do not and cannot know (BW can though).

 

So let us know if you have any data on the number of people doing something other than nothing in SWTOR.

 

Numbers on fleet are reflective of those doing other things. I've checked and couldn't find an example of one server that had a lower fleet pop than another but a higher number of 55s logged in, people in wzs or people running around in newbie zones. Can you? It's far from a perfect benchmark but it's far better than looking at the server status page (where I've confirmed that POT5's "Light" is sometimes more ppl than JM's "Standard").

[Tsillah]

An opinion is about subjective things. Statements about that can be objectively proven true or false are NOT opinions. Just because someone makes a statement and prefaces it with "I think" (or something like that) doesn't make it an opinion.

 

Take two people, gossiping by the watercooler. One says, "You know Joan, in accounting? I think she's pregnant." The other says, "I'm pretty sure she isn't"

 

One of those two statements is true, and the other is false. Neither are opinions. There is nothing subjective here. An opinion in this case might be "Joan is too young to get pregnant, she should have waited."

 

 

An opinion is a belief that you have that isn't based on knowledge or proof. As neither person has evidence or proof they both have opinions. That one of them may be right because there are only two options doesn't make that person factual. It's still an opinion unless there is evidence given.

 

So if the person is actually pregnant, the person saying they believe she's pregnant is giving an opinion just the same, unless this person knew that this woman was pregnant. Because this person says "I think she's pregnant" it IS an opinion because it indicates that this person lacks actual evidence.

 

Look it up in a dictionary next time before you make up your own nonesense.

[Khevar]

Look it up in a dictionary next time before you make up your own nonesense.

I could say the same to you ...

[Savej]

An opinion is a belief that you have that isn't based on knowledge or proof. As neither person has evidence or proof they both have opinions. That one of them may be right because there are only two options doesn't make that person factual. It's still an opinion unless there is evidence given.

 

So if the person is actually pregnant, the person saying they believe she's pregnant is giving an opinion just the same, unless this person knew that this woman was pregnant. Because this person says "I think she's pregnant" it IS an opinion because it indicates that this person lacks actual evidence.

 

Look it up in a dictionary next time before you make up your own nonesense.

 

If you want to get technical or talk to the wrong philosophers/lawyers, everything is an opinion (even the doctor holding a baby saying the woman that just gave birth to it was pregnant - "in his opinion"). Who cares???

Edited June 29, 2014 by Savej

[Andryah]

numbers, such as the average on my fleet republic side at 8pm last week was 212. 6 months ago that figure was 267 are not opinions. Those are concrete facts. I wrote them down each night.

 

These may be concrete facts for the moment you observed and wrote down the numbers for that Fleet instance. Thing is... doing a random snapshot of a Fleet instance in no way tells you how populated and active your server is. So in context, your random observations tell you nothing except what is going on in that Fleet instance at the moment you observed it and wrote it down.

 

There is in fact NO OBJECTIVE way to tell exact populations for the servers. There IS HOWEVER a trend based relative way to observe if any given server is "dying" (or any other subjective opinion someone wants to make), remaining roughly stable, growing, declining, etc. For that, you use torstatus.net and look at the one year trend for your server. If you do this.. you will see that year over year... PvP servers continue to decline, PvE servers are stable with some growing modestly. You will also see the typical spikes upward in player activity that coincides nicely with major patch releases, followed by a slow ebb over time until the next major patch. Pretty much normal for MMOs to be honest.

 

Here....let me assist you for a moment. go here ----> http://www.torstatus.net/shards/us/trends ..... and see the smaller graph below the upper view graph? you can slide the selector shadow across that lower graph and see any trend time slice you like...it will display the time window you select in the upper graph... up to one year from present. This will not give you absolute numbers, but it gives you and excellent trend comparison over time, which will indicate if servers are up, down, stable, etc. Like with most MMOs.. populations ebb and flow overtime.

Edited June 29, 2014 by Andryah

[RakghoulsRTrolls]

These may be concrete facts for the moment you observed and wrote down the numbers for that Fleet instance. Thing is... doing a random snapshot of a Fleet instance in no way tells you how populated and active your server is. So in context, your random observations tell you nothing except what is going on in that Fleet instance at the moment you observed it and wrote it down.

 

There is in fact NO OBJECTIVE way to tell exact populations for the servers. There IS HOWEVER a trend based relative way to observe if any given server is "dying" (or any other subjective opinion someone wants to make), remaining roughly stable, growing, declining, etc. For that, you use torstatus.net and look at the one year trend for your server. If you do this.. you will see that year over year... PvP servers continue to decline, PvE servers are stable with some growing modestly. You will also see the typical spikes upward in player activity that coincides nicely with major patch releases, followed by a slow ebb over time until the next major patch. Pretty much normal for MMOs to be honest.

Well it's too bad Torstatus is quite unreliable these days. Oh well.

[Daekarus]

I can definitely tell you that practically none of the Fleet population counts include me because 99% of my play time I spend... wait for it... actually playing.

[Tsillah]

If you want to get technical or talk to the wrong philosophers/lawyers, everything is an opinion (even the doctor holding a baby saying the woman that just gave birth to it was pregnant - "in his opinion"). Who cares???

 

In which case there is evidence so then it's not just an opinion anymore...which is exactly what I was saying.

 

Why do you make it a counter argument when in fact you agree with me?

 

I said that thinking something without any evidence or proof is an opinion. I got this from the dictionary, not a philosophy book. I never said it had to be proven beyond any philosophical doubt. That is YOUR OWN INTERPRETATION OF SOMETHING I DIDN''T SAY.

 

I did that in capitals because I don't get why you disagree with me by using an argument that proves my point.

[Projawa]

The game has become really stale for PvE players. And GSH, in my opinion, is just another template for cartel market transactions. I'm sure lots of people, including myself, might find it fun to decorate their houses and spend their CC's on items for it, but how sustainable is that? People are bored, and probably have been for a long time. there's othing wrong with what the OP has said. He's very accurate with his points. As for all the complaints of whiners in the forums about the game, if they didn't care about the game and wanted it to be a success, they wouldn't take the time to voice their concerns here. That's the whole point of a forum. Voice your concerns, issues, idea's. U don't just file them under trolls or whiners and disregard what they have to say. The lack of effort by BW is obviously popular. And if the game was as good as other people claim it to be, why would there be so much complaining about it?

 

It's a fundamental characteristic of themepark MMOs in general. No MMO will ever release content "fast enough". Rift had the best content dev/release cycle of any themepark MMO and look where it is now.

 

No matter how much content you release quickly, even your most loyal customers get bored and move on.

Now, this doesn't mean that a company should just throw up its arms and decry the futility of their efforts. It's still important to make regular/quality updates to their game. It's just that some things are out of their control no matter how clever they plan it.

Edited June 29, 2014 by Projawa

[Tsillah]

I could say the same to you ...

 

I looked it up in various dictionaries before replying. That's just how I work.

 

You say here that if you think something and later it is proven true that it was never an opinion. I am telling you by the definitions of even multiple dictionaries you are wrong, it still is an opinion.

 

Here's one for you: .Opinion: A belief or conclusion held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof.

 

Opinions can be true or false. What makes it an opinion is that you hold a believe without having such backing.

 

If you ask whether a sports team has lost or won a match that was just played(assuming a draw is not a possible outcome) and I haven't seen the result of the match yet anything I say will be my opinion. Even if I guessed the right team won it still is an opinion.

 

If then I find out that the team won and someone else asks me, then my answer is no longer an opinion. But it requires some validation before it's no longer an opinion.

 

If you say "I think she's pregnant", that simply would indicate that you haven't had this validation yet. Until she announces her pregnancy or shows pictures of the unborn child it will be an opinion. Only after such a validation it is no longer an opinion.

 

You seem to say that it never was an opinion if you end up being right in the end and if that is what you are saying, sorry, but you're dead wrong on that.

 

And this is the problem. We can fight about the meaning of words all day long, but the biggest problem is simply that people too quickly think they know something and profess their UNSUBSTANTIATED opinions as facts. To say then it never was an opinin if you guessed right is just supporting such behaviour.

 

So many people come her saying stuff is broken or nobody cares at BW or on the opposite side that nothing's wrong at all don't actually stick to facts because they have none. And although I don't have a problem with people having opinions, I do have a problem with people who present their opinions as facts, simply because they feel that way or someone else agrees with them.

 

So as much as I would prefer to avoid fighting over the meaning of a word, it gets kind of silly when you maintain as per your example that it's not an opinion if you later find out you were right on the matter. It still was an opinion until you got confirmation and as such people should just stop thinking their opinions are facts just because they want them to be or because they twist the meaning of a word to their benefit.

 

So let's avoid the word opinion for your sake.

 

When you have no evidence or real numbers but you act as if you do, you are a liar. And that's all I am saying. You undermine that with your example and that's why I replied to it.

[annabethchase]

These may be concrete facts for the moment you observed and wrote down the numbers for that Fleet instance. Thing is... doing a random snapshot of a Fleet instance in no way tells you how populated and active your server is. So in context, your random observations tell you nothing except what is going on in that Fleet instance at the moment you observed it and wrote it down.

 

There is in fact NO OBJECTIVE way to tell exact populations for the servers. There IS HOWEVER a trend based relative way to observe if any given server is "dying" (or any other subjective opinion someone wants to make), remaining roughly stable, growing, declining, etc. For that, you use torstatus.net and look at the one year trend for your server. If you do this.. you will see that year over year... PvP servers continue to decline, PvE servers are stable with some growing modestly. You will also see the typical spikes upward in player activity that coincides nicely with major patch releases, followed by a slow ebb over time until the next major patch. Pretty much normal for MMOs to be honest.

 

Here....let me assist you for a moment. go here ----> http://www.torstatus.net/shards/us/trends ..... and see the smaller graph below the upper view graph? you can slide the selector shadow across that lower graph and see any trend time slice you like...it will display the time window you select in the upper graph... up to one year from present. This will not give you absolute numbers, but it gives you and excellent trend comparison over time, which will indicate if servers are up, down, stable, etc. Like with most MMOs.. populations ebb and flow overtime.

 

Did you not notice the number I gave you was higher than would fit in 1 instance? I'm not the troll who found an empty instance and posted a count of 1 person. I counted all the people on Republic side. Note, I also keep stats on Imp side, which are slightly higher.

 

As to why 8pm eastern on an eastern server? Well duh, because that's primetime. Give or take an hour, that's the highest activity of the day.

 

My figures are precise, torstatus is a rough guideline using light/medium/heavy information.

 

I agree 100% these things are cyclical based on major and minor patches. My point with all of this is that ROTHC didn't do enough to cover it's content cycle which is going to be dang near 2 years by the time 3.0 hits. My minor and extremely obvious point is that 2.8 has done nothing to stabilize the population for it's time period.

 

However, and this is big, Bioware made a huge point that ROTHC was not considered to be an WOW type expansion. It wasn't supposed to be what kept us playing for the next 2 years. Bioware has made it clear that every 6 to 9 weeks patch is supposed to sustain interest on it's own and that we aren't allowed to expect a major WOW type expansion ever. That's why it's important to express our opinions on each patch cycle individually.

 

My aim in sharing this is to hope Bioware is reading and considering this when planning future patches. I know they have tons of metrics that can put much more detail behind this. I think we are already seeing them react to what isn't working by 1) not mentioning the original space on rails in months 2) already slowing their cadence on GSF. Their metrics are telling them that people just aren't playing those aspects.

 

What would really be great, and isn't that crazy of an idea, would be to truly ask the active players as well as former subscribers what it is they want in 3.0. Might be too late already, but maybe it's not. If you think about it long enough, that's the core expression all non-angry posters are always trying to make - "I'd like to see this content in the future"

[annabethchase]

I can definitely tell you that practically none of the Fleet population counts include me because 99% of my play time I spend... wait for it... actually playing.

 

That's fine, as I assume you had the same pattern 6 months ago. I doubt 6 months ago you were standing on the fleet for long periods of time if you don't do so today. Now the bad case is people who used to be actively doing say dailies, then start just standing around fleet, then just don't log in at all. That's the regression nobody wants to see.

 

One interesting aspect of GSH's is I don't think we'll be able to use Fleet numbers as an indicator of people online but not engaged anymore. I think we'll have a major shift to people hanging out in their Strongholds and Guild Ships instead and we'll no longer be able to tell anything about the population easily.

[BuriDogshin]

That's fine, as I assume you had the same pattern 6 months ago.

That seems like an invalid assumption. Six months ago, there was no Kuat Yards for DPS looking for a fast queue pop. And that's just one example of why your assumption doesn't necessarily hold.

 

Stop making assumptions based on the conclusion you want to arrive at: that's as anti-scientific as it gets.