Madness Sins /Balance Shadows

[TheCourier-]

So your argument is with the Carnage Marauder, not the concept of "pressure damage + solo target burst damage = win"?

 

You should actually check above, I conceded Carnage may be a bad choice due to how easy it is to restrict their movements/damage. Don't try to project your own shortcomings onto me and claim I'm the one who didn't read.

 

The two best ranked comps would be dot pressure or target switching. If a madness assassin is on a team, then the other DPS should be a madness sorc or lethality sniper. If a carnage marauder is on a team, then the other DPS should be a vengeance juggernaut, deception assassin, pyro PT, or another carnage marauder.

[JediMasterSLC]

So your argument is with the Carnage Marauder, not the concept of "pressure damage + solo target burst damage = win"?

 

You should actually check above, I conceded Carnage may be a bad choice due to how easy it is to restrict their movements/damage. Don't try to project your own shortcomings onto me and claim I'm the one who didn't read.

 

I..... wat. Why don't you read? I just told you that my issue was with having the mara sit on the op healer (that is... madness. LEL), not the mara itself.

[ZooMzy]

I..... wat. Why don't you read? I just told you that my issue was with having the mara sit on the op healer (that is... madness. LEL), not the mara itself.

 

And I told you the only reason why Carnage Marauder sitting on the op heal could possibly be bad is because they are easy to control and contain.

 

Therefore, if you still have a problem, your argument is that you have an issue with sticking a solo burst DPS on a healer. Which then means you have a problem with the strat that I basically said is the best method, simply put as a "one two punch".

 

When I responded that you have never played against a good pressure DPS in arenas, that means you've never seen a player that could make a strat regarding a DPS healer camping viable. Because a good pressure DPS means their team will be too busy focusing on keeping themselves alive and overall trying to shut down a DoT player, while your solo burst DPS is more viable by controlling and solo bursting a healer that is too busy healing a team to focus on countering burst damage and healing through extreme pressure damage at the same time.

 

So again, I have read your statements and understand the meaning behind them, which is why I have presented counter arguments to them above. You have not done the same, whether it's a disregard for reading or just inability to comprehend simple team based mechanics.

 

Please go back and read. Whether or not you're too busy sitting on a high horse to actually realize your argument has been countered or some other reason for avoiding the debate at hand isn't really a factor at this stage anymore. You've been countered, provide a retort or admit defeat/refuse to make a response instead of displacing your own disrespect onto someone as if they are the ones demonstrating it instead of you.

 

The two best ranked comps would be dot pressure or target switching. If a madness assassin is on a team, then the other DPS should be a madness sorc or lethality sniper. If a carnage marauder is on a team, then the other DPS should be a vengeance juggernaut, deception assassin, pyro PT, or another carnage marauder.

 

That's actually completely backwards. All pressure damage in PvP is basically just "fluff damage" without any burst damage, not even the Madness sustained solo target buffs can make a double pressure DPS spec viable (lol at Madness sin + Madness Sorc DPS combo).

 

It's about as effective as a double Deception sin build, where "all burst and no pressure" is easy to counter with the right coordination with stuns, knockbacks, roots, slows, hard counter defensive CDs, etc.

 

You have no versatility in regards to damage in those comps, where the only reason you should actively see any success is from the factor of class/role matchups rather than team build strength. The better composition to run I believe right now, is probably the Madness Assassin and the Deception Assassin for DPS as Deception sin is one of the only (if not, the only) solo target burst damage build that has an even mix of burst damage types and survivability to effectively take advantage of the Madness sin's extreme pressure damage capabilities. The only real spec that has some utility in shutting down a sin nearly completely are the classes that no one really plays in arenas: Mercs.

 

Damage has always been designed in a manner of two concepts: pressure and burst. So if you want to have the best damage, it's really not too hard to understand that the best method of play isn't to just completely overwhelm the enemy in one of those fields, simply because people can easily figure out how to counter you if all you know how to do is "one thing". You have to be the best at both, and if you do both correctly, everything melts.

 

"All burst and no pressure" only succeeds when you fight slow derps, and "all pressure and no burst" only works on enemies who have a bad comp. in comparison to yours.

[JediMasterSLC]

And I told you the only reason why Carnage Marauder sitting on the op heal could possibly be bad is because they are easy to control and contain.

 

Therefore, if you still have a problem, your argument is that you have an issue with sticking a solo burst DPS on a healer. Which then means you have a problem with the strat that I basically said is the best method, simply put as a "one two punch".

 

When I responded that you have never played against a good pressure DPS in arenas, that means you've never seen a player that could make a strat regarding a DPS healer camping viable. Because a good pressure DPS means their team will be too busy focusing on keeping themselves alive and overall trying to shut down a DoT player, while your solo burst DPS is more viable by controlling and solo bursting a healer that is too busy healing a team to focus on countering burst damage and healing through extreme pressure damage at the same time.

 

So again, I have read your statements and understand the meaning behind them, which is why I have presented counter arguments to them above. You have not done the same, whether it's a disregard for reading or just inability to comprehend simple team based mechanics.

 

Please go back and read. Whether or not you're too busy sitting on a high horse to actually realize your argument has been countered or some other reason for avoiding the debate at hand isn't really a factor at this stage anymore. You've been countered, provide a retort or admit defeat/refuse to make a response instead of displacing your own disrespect onto someone as if they are the ones demonstrating it instead of you.

 

You are talking nonsense. I can't tell if it's because you suck at English, or because you suck at the game. Can someone translate this?

 

THE strat is to mezz heals whenever possible and either tank tunnel, or switch between dps as you hard stun tank to prevent guard switch.

 

And what alleged teams are so good at pressuring, that I apparently have never hit?

Edited June 16, 2014 by JediMasterSLC

[JP_Legatus]

That's actually completely backwards. All pressure damage in PvP is basically just "fluff damage" without any burst damage, not even the Madness sustained solo target buffs can make a double pressure DPS spec viable (lol at Madness sin + Madness Sorc DPS combo).

 

It's about as effective as a double Deception sin build, where "all burst and no pressure" is easy to counter with the right coordination with stuns, knockbacks, roots, slows, hard counter defensive CDs, etc.

 

I disagree. Have you actually tried madness sin in 2.8? It's finally dealing damage like it was the squishy light armor melee dot spec that it is, and puts real hurt on healers and tanks alike. The damage is real. If you think 2 madness sins can't take out a healer/tank combo, I'd be willing to put that challenge to the test, and we'll find out.

 

As for deception, it's always been the spec that people whine about but was never very good. Still, I think 4 deception sins would dominate ranked if anyone ever bothered to actually coordinate it well. It's unfortunate that this game's community is so small that we don't get to see or try stuff like this. It would be extremely difficult to stop, but the manpower to do it just doesn't exist.

Edited June 16, 2014 by JP_Legatus

[ZooMzy]

I disagree. Have you actually tried madness sin in 2.8? It's finally dealing damage like it was the squishy light armor melee dot spec that it is, and puts real hurt on healers and tanks alike. The damage is real. If you think 2 madness sins can't take out a healer/tank combo, I'd be willing to put that challenge to the test, and we'll find out.

 

I have, and the damage is all sustained AOE and burst. We took on a Jug tank, Op heals, and double Madness sin comp with an Anni Marauder, sin tank, ops heals, and Pyrotech PT: we went 1-1. Overall, the damage we took in, especially the PT (seemed to suffer the most from the double DF) was manageable, and to the next point:

 

As for deception, it's always been the spec that people whine about but was never very good. Still, I think 4 deception sins would dominate ranked if anyone ever bothered to actually run it well. It's unfortunate that this game's community is so small that we don't get to see or try stuff like this. It would be extremely difficult to stop, but the manpower to do it just doesn't exist.

 

Deception, I think, has the best burst not because of the actual damage potential, but because it's the only spec that actually can be diverse in damage. You have an nearly even mix of Force and melee burst attacks, versus things such as Carnage being nearly all weapon damage, Concealment being all tech damage, and PT Pyro being a little more sustained in comparison to Deception damage.

 

Against a Madness assassin, Deception actually has a very good advantage:

-Death Field damage intake reduction

-Force Shroud that clears out Madness damage.

-Heavy hitting Force and melee burst attacks > Madness light armor

-Phase Walk to close the gap to Madness kiters (I found this trick better used on snipers, where you can drop a PW at their feet before knockback and just teleport back next to them. Still works well for kiters if planned correctly).

-Taunts to help mitage fluff damage. All pressure DPS comps don't really shine well when the other team has DPS who can coordinate taunts, especially if you have three different players who can lower the team damage in take.

 

Combined with Madness sustained damage, it's a way more effective usage of DPS in comparison to double Madness, since a Deception burst compliments pressure damage over double Madness just amplifying a spec that needs emphasis in an area it doesn't have. All sustained, the changes gave it sustained solo target damage to it's AOE capabilities, not actual burst.

Edited June 16, 2014 by ZooMzy

[JP_Legatus]

I have, and the damage is all sustained AOE and burst. We took on a Jug tank, Op heals, and double Madness sin comp with an Anni Marauder, sin tank, ops heals, and Pyrotech PT: we went 1-1. Overall, the damage we took in, especially the PT (seemed to suffer the most from the double DF) was manageable, and to the next point:

 

If you went 1-1 it wasn't manageable, it was on par with your own strategy. Let me know when you're 20-0 against that comp.

 

Deception, I think, has the best burst not because of the actual damage potential, but because it's the only spec that actually can be diverse in damage. You have Force and melee burst attacks, versus things such as Carnage being nearly all weapon damage, Concealment being all tech damage, and PT Pyro being a little more sustained in comparison to Deception damage.

 

Against a Madness assassin, Deception actually has a very good advantage:

-Death Field damage intake reduction

-Force Shroud that clears out Madness damage.

-Heavy hitting Force and melee burst attacks > Madness light armor

-Phase Walk to close the gap to Madness kiters (I found this trick better used on snipers, where you can drop a PW at their feet before knockback and just teleport back next to them. Still works well for kiters if planned correctly).

-Taunts to help mitage fluff damage. All pressure DPS comps don't really shine well when the other team has DPS who can coordinate taunts, especially if you have three different players who can lower the team damage in take.

 

Combined with Madness sustained damage, it's a way more effective usage of DPS in comparison to double Madness, since a Deception burst compliments pressure damage over double Madness just amplifying a spec that needs emphasis in an area it doesn't have. All sustained, the changes gave it sustained solo target damage to it's AOE capabilities.

 

Deception is not a good ranked spec. If it were, I'd be playing it day in and day out. It's decent in regstars due to bad teams/randoms allowing you to refresh recklessness all the time, but ranked teams won't let you do that. And you'll almost never kill the other team in your opener, which means you're down to your sustained dps which is really bad. Thus it is a terrible rated spec in a normal comp.

 

If you had a coordinated team of 4 on the other hand, you actually COULD kill people in your opener, which is why I think 4 would work: you could gank, then stealth out and repeat. They likely wouldn't stop you since shroud and phase walk. It's not unbeatable but I think it'd be very strong.

 

Yes, deception might do good against a madness sin, then it might not, but it's irrelevant since your madness sins wouldn't be attacking the deception guys anyways and this isn't a 1v1.

Edited June 16, 2014 by JP_Legatus

[ZooMzy]

If you went 1-1 it wasn't manageable, it was on par with your own strategy. Let me know when you're 20-0 against that comp.

 

It was manageable because:

 

-I was the sin tank of the group, running a mix of Obroan PvP gear and Dread Forged set bonus armorings. Best tank counter to Madness sin damage is sin tank, as you probably see jug and PT tanks melting so easily because Madness damage counters their advantages through DoTs and internal attacks. Not because their DPS is so huge, but because they hold a class and spec advantage over any tank that isn't a sin.

-Anni Marauder sucks against Madness DPS, at least the comp our member was running (raged at him a little for not taking the AOE damage reduction talent points). DoT damage reduction, no burst, all sustained single target that a healer could lol through. Overall, Madness sin's heavy counter is in extreme burst damage, which a Deception assassin excels better in because their range of burst attacks can be used to bypass Madness sin CDs better than any other burst spec.

-Pyro PT was getting focused targeted by both Madness sins, didn't really die until the end of each rounds. Fights would last at least till the last min of each round, would all determine how well we spaced for the double Death Field. This means the two didn't really deal out that powerful of damage to him, considering Pyro has very strong weaknesses in internal damage from Death Fields along with the Assassinate spam not really stressing him, only would make matters intense based on a slow guard swap.

-Operative healer of ours was geared out in some Conq pieces and had never run a ranked WZ prior to the 2 matches. Not exactly a good setup if an undergeared, noob healer can keep pace with Madness damage and didn't really struggle unless I was slow with the guard swap, which we actually experienced more with the second team we played against that focused heavily on burst damage with Combat Sent and Pyro Vanguard.

 

Deception is not a good ranked spec. If it were, I'd be playing it day in and day out. It's decent in regstars due to bad teams/randoms allowing you to refresh recklessness all the time, but ranked teams won't let you do that. And you'll almost never kill the other team in your opener, which means you're down to your sustained dps which is really bad. Thus it is a terrible rated spec in a normal comp.

 

Then you've never seen one operate with good pressure damage spec as a teammate. Deception's utility to the team wouldn't be extreme heavy burst damage; it would be viable with just enough to take advantage of a healer under heavy pressure because it has a range of burst attacks to side step Evasion, unlike a Carnage Marauder. And since Concealment ops are a joke in regards to survivability versus a Deception sin's defensive capabilities and it's small sustain in VS + Shock, it's viable for longer lasting fights. Especially since most of the actual skill in burst damage isn't just outright killing someone in a matter of seconds; it's using your extreme heavy hitting attacks to direct the focus of the enemy team.

 

With a Madness sin fulfilling the pressure aspect of the damage, it's only a matter of time before a Deception assassin could fine the right target to burst, something that would require a little bit of patience instead of trying to kill someone in the first few moments of the fight.

 

If you had a coordinated team of 4 on the other hand, you actually COULD kill people in your opener, which is why I think 4 would work: you could gank, then stealth out and repeat. They likely wouldn't stop you since shroud and phase walk. It's not unbeatable but I think it'd be very strong.

 

You miss the point: you are not trying to kill anyone in the opener.

 

You are trying to effective break down the players on the enemy team when a pressure damage spec has effectively force a team to a point of struggling to mitigate said team damage. Your job, as a burst damage player, is to utilize the burst damage at the key moment, which for some odd reason, people seem to think it can only be done in the first moments of the fight.

 

Which it can't: a healer can't keep track of a Madness assassin pressuring his entire team, including him, with a Deception assassin throwing in average to strong burst along with CC moves such as Low Slash, Electrocute, Spike, and Force Overload. And that's the issue where people miss Deception viability: your job is to direct a tank and healer's focus away from their team onto themselves, and force them to overexert themselves attempting to heal through your damage and the pressure damage affecting the entire team.

 

The game is more complex than just "all burst" and "all pressure". If you combine both, and your team comp isn't heavily countered by the enemy's in classes and specs, then you perform better than anyone. If you choose to place all your chips into one type of damage and deny the other, you basically make your team's playstyle and strat predictable and beatable.

 

Versus the combination of the two creating an unpredictability that can always be a path to victory in the hands of players who really grasp that concept.

Edited June 16, 2014 by ZooMzy

[JediMasterSLC]

Looked him up on leaderboards- he plays on Begeren Colony. Can we ignore his rants now? Edited June 16, 2014 by JediMasterSLC

[HeatRacer]

You think marauders are squishier than sins, that's interesting let's do a comparison:

 

Undying vs shroud: a fair contest after the nerf, both prevent major damage and both have big drawbacks.

 

Uhh..what's the drawback on Force Shroud again?

[DarrelK]

deception is not a good ranked spec. .

 

Edited June 16, 2014 by DarrelK

[MidichIorian]

Uhh..what's the drawback on Force Shroud again?

It....it...has a cooldown?

 

 

Yeah i got nothing.

[jack__]

Uhh..what's the drawback on Force Shroud again?

White damage?

[cycao]

It....it...has a cooldown?

 

 

Yeah i got nothing.

 

Well I suppose that the only drawback would be unlike UR if you pop it below say 30% chances are it's not going to prevent/delay your death as there are plenty of hard hitting weapon based abilities including all executes.

 

Only thing I can think of.

[ZooMzy]

Looked him up on leaderboards- he plays on Begeren Colony. Can we ignore his rants now?

 

Immediately turning to more experience rather than debating the argument? Forgot that even on RP servers, you can have decent competition at times?

 

GG, thanks for the win. You've made it clear that this is only a personal issue to you. I suggest you get your ego in check bud, you're going to lose a lot of rating against better players with an arrogance problem like that.

 

Just hoping Legatus makes a retort on theological comparison of teams, since you seem to lack understanding on how this game works. And prove it by continuing to dodge the argument with epeen measuring.

Edited June 16, 2014 by ZooMzy

[sithBracer]

You are talking nonsense. I can't tell if it's because you suck at English, or because you suck at the game. Can someone translate this?

 

I think in short what he is saying is:

 

1) deception burst healer

2) madness tab dot tank/dps

3) healer now cannot heal the others because he has to heal himself

4) DoTs drive down all of their health and now healer is stuck healing all of them including himself, will not be able to keep up.

5) profit.

 

This will probably not work since a tank guard and op healer DCD/HoTs/instants will neutralize almost the entire burst of the sin leaving him with nothing since deception sins become meh after their opening burst, not to mention the healer can kite his maul and the 2 dps can just hard switch to him leaving the healer with more than enough breathing room in case a miracle happened and the sin was able to get him below 50%.

[ZooMzy]

I think in short what he is saying is:

This will probably not work since a tank guard and op healer DCD/HoTs/instants will neutralize almost the entire burst of the sin leaving him with nothing since deception sins become meh after their opening burst, not to mention the healer can kite his maul and the 2 dps can just hard switch to him leaving the healer with more than enough breathing room in case a miracle happened and the sin was able to get him below 50%.

 

Burst only becomes neutralized whenever the damage is thrown onto a guarded target with taunts active.

 

Problem with your strat actually comes into better play whenever the tanks and other teammates' switch focus to the Deception DPS. Personally, I considered the tank would need to be the only one hard swapping, since DPS will be struggling to counter act the pressure damage by quickly eliminating an enemy player to cripple the team, but either way:

 

Pressure damage increase whenever tank or multiple targets converge on the healer, effectively grouping together to make a happy Madness assassin drop Death Field off CD and easy maintenance tab Dotting. Team placement has to be spread out to negate DF damage and force the Madness assassin to struggle with DoT maintenance, or pressure damage becomes even more potent.

 

Not to mention, smart Deception burst on a healer target would be to place burst damage on healer already affected by pressure damage at the right moment, which taunts and CC abilities make it a foolish idea to place in the first few moments of the fight. Better to save burst, ruse enemy team into believing you're using burst on a healer in the first few moments, and save abilities such as Recklessness for a somewhat later notice to effectively crush a healer below 60-70% from pressure damage.

 

Op heals is actually more of a sustained spec, they actually suck in regards to burst heals now that the Probe spam has been removed (Think of how HoTs are essentially, the opposite of DoTs. And then, imagine how many DoTs specs are actually burst. Hint: the heals work in the same way.). The reason why Op healing is strong isn't because it's bursty and sustained at the same time, but because it's mobile and has very easy maintenance sustain HPS.

 

So against burst damage, Op healing actually is one of the worst healers to counterbalance that damage based on healing power alone. If anything, a Deception sin can lolburst a healer no problem as long as they are patient and smart enough to avoid wasting their 2 burst rotations at the worst times. Which, since everyone believes "opening burst" is the only type of burst damage in game, it creates a wonderful situation because people melt from ignorance of the enemy team's strat.

Edited June 16, 2014 by ZooMzy

[DawwsoN]

http://i.imgur.com/A91CYft.png

[JasonNH]

I don't have a strong opinion over where the new changes put balance in terms of relative power, but one thing to keep in mind when a spec has been further down in the pack for a while and gets buffed, is that the people who stuck with the spec when it wasn't as strong learned to do more with less and became better players for it. I think this is why when you see a buff to a class, there is a noticeable difference right off the bat. Then you get the FOTM trying-to-take-the-easy-way-out players looking to copy, finding out it isn't as easy as it looked, and things balance out better over time (no pun intended), especially as people adjust their tactics to deal with the new threat. Need to give it a while yet, IMO.

[JP_Legatus]

Uhh..what's the drawback on Force Shroud again?

 

Drawbacks:

Only lasts 3s

Doesn't stop white damage at all

Bugs frequently even vs force/tech

 

When compared to undying rage obviously.

Edited June 16, 2014 by JP_Legatus

[DarrelK]

Drawbacks:

Only lasts 3s

Doesn't stop white damage at all

Bugs frequently even vs force/tech

 

When compared to undying rage obviously.

 

Bug is fixed.

[JP_Legatus]

Bug is fixed.

 

Whaaaaaaaat?

[JP_Legatus]

I think in short what he is saying is:

 

1) deception burst healer

2) madness tab dot tank/dps

3) healer now cannot heal the others because he has to heal himself

4) DoTs drive down all of their health and now healer is stuck healing all of them including himself, will not be able to keep up.

5) profit.

 

This will probably not work since a tank guard and op healer DCD/HoTs/instants will neutralize almost the entire burst of the sin leaving him with nothing since deception sins become meh after their opening burst, not to mention the healer can kite his maul and the 2 dps can just hard switch to him leaving the healer with more than enough breathing room in case a miracle happened and the sin was able to get him below 50%.

 

Well at least there's one other person here who understands deception in ranked.

[JP_Legatus]

Burst only becomes neutralized whenever the damage is thrown onto a guarded target with taunts active.

 

Actually it becomes neutralized anytime you pop dcd, use a stun/mezz, kite, force the dps off target to survive, or provide burst healing fast enough. And then there's the stuff you mentioned, so it's neutralized quite often, which is why you can't rely on a spec like deception with all burst and no sustain under normal circumstances.

[Devilk]

Lol, dominate in team ranked. Good one. It's been out 2 days. His definition of dominating is: "the only other team that plays team ranked on my server beat us and they happened to have a madness sin, so it must be because madness sins are OP and dominating ranked".

 

The overall damage a madness sin does is on par with other specs, but it is not even close to the highest. This has been already tested by many people on PTS. Add to that the TTK is still pretty long, the highest damaging moves require the sin to be in 4m range (the setup of CrD and assassinate) and his armor is the weakest in the game. It's not the sin's fault that people ignore him and let him free cast even though he is 4m away.

 

A madness sorc is way stronger at this point in group ranked.

 

This right here. Thread over. He played against some of the better/best players on the server with his average team and they happened to have madness sins. But then the madness sins switched to Leth ops and his team still lost and then quit queing. Has nothing to do with madness sins.

Edited June 16, 2014 by Devilk