Practical or For Show?

[Beniboybling]

I know it's from a wiki so the information might be incorrect, but this exert does mention that it is due to being a warship that it can redirect its power in such a manner, which would mean that other dedicated warships farther down the line likely had the same ability.

 

"The DBY-827 had seven different power settings. This allowed the Venator's pilots and gunners to select a range of destruction, from a small strike to a vaporizing blow. As a true warship, the Venator-class Star Destroyer could divert almost all of its reactor output to its heavy turbolasers when needed. As a result of this, a flotilla of Venators could break through the shields of a Trade Federation battleship with ease.[8]"

 

The key phrase is "as a true warship" and I might question your sanity if you consider any of the larger imperial ships as not being a true warship. I am not saying that the Venator doesn't get more damage from its heavy weaponry even if this is the case, I am merely saying it might be possible that a MK-I might be able to retaliate in kind. I mean, shifting power from one system to another isn't even really that special. It is even done by the Millenium falcon if I remember right.

That's Wookieepedia's phrasing, I don't think that can be used as a basis for anything.

[tunewalker]

That's Wookieepedia's phrasing, I don't think that can be used as a basis for anything.

 

agreed with that, but it is clear there is a level of power adjustment on all ships just from the movies and games and such. Though that doesnt change the fact that the Venator's DBY's were still toated as more efficient with more settings. Other then that I dont think that changes my overall assessment of overall firepower on the previous page .

 

 

Something that can shed some more light on this

 

Venator

Power output

Peak: 3,6 × 10^24 W[1]

 

 

Imperial I

Power output

Peak: ~7,73 × 10^24 W[1][8]

 

 

any one who knows math can see that the Imperial has nearly DOUBLE the maximum power output.

Edited June 16, 2014 by tunewalker

[Silenceo]

agreed with that, but it is clear there is a level of power adjustment on all ships just from the movies and games and such. Though that doesnt change the fact that the Venator's DBY's were still toated as more efficient with more settings. Other then that I dont think that changes my overall assessment of overall firepower on the previous page .

 

 

Something that can shed some more light on this

 

Venator

Power output

Peak: 3,6 × 10^24 W[1]

 

 

Imperial I

Power output

Peak: ~7,73 × 10^24 W[1][8]

 

 

any one who knows math can see that the Imperial has nearly DOUBLE the maximum power output.

 

If I recall correctly, the main things that made the MK-II so much more powerful, was that the MK-II had its reactor upgraded which increased its power generation by nearly 20%. To be more exact, Peak: >9,28 × 10^24 W for the MK-II.

Edited June 17, 2014 by Silenceo

[tunewalker]

If I recall correctly, the main thing that made the MK-II so much more power, was that the MK-II had its reactor upgraded which increased its power generation by nearly 20%. To be more exact, Peak: >9,28 × 10^24 W for the MK-II.

 

Correct MK II has

 

Power output

Peak: >9,28 × 1024 W[7] (over 20% more power than the ISD-I)[8][9]

 

 

But it was more then that guns were upgraded which is why the Imp II has more then 30% more fire power then the Imp I.

 

 

The MC 90 http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/MC90_Star_Cruiser has the same power output, but its guns total are only a match for the Imp I which if you notice number of turbo lasers (The MC 90's class of turbo lasers are unspecified it just says it has 75) are around the same number, but the Imp I has more Ion cannon and the MC 90 has Proton Torps. The more Ion cannons means the MC 90 needed extra power output on its guns to match the Imp I.

 

 

 

Also in my analysis of the Imp I's fire power I missed Triple medium turbolasers (3) which if I were to calculate it in would obviously bring the Imp I up in firepower, though likely not enough to overcome the Slight advantage I gave to the Venator in Overall Hull Firepower, but to give it a much more demanding lead in Overall Shield Firepower.

 

 

If we were to argue tactics I would still say the Venator would win. Its a much more well rounded ship the Imperial has stronger Capital ship firepower but lacks any defense beyond its fighters for other fighters. Its guns pivet to slow and some of them have a safety feature on them the Rebels exploited by flying lower.

 

While It will put up a fight I think the FIghter swarm will bring it down eventually, especially once the Venators smaller guns deal with the Imp I's fighters and they direct their power into their bigger guns and get some range making only the Imp I's big guns usable, thus allowing it to simply out maneuver and out range giving them the firepower advantage at those ranges.

 

We can not ignore the tactical options the Venators have.

Edited June 17, 2014 by tunewalker

[Beniboybling]

agreed with that, but it is clear there is a level of power adjustment on all ships just from the movies and games and such. Though that doesnt change the fact that the Venator's DBY's were still toated as more efficient with more settings. Other then that I dont think that changes my overall assessment of overall firepower on the previous page .

 

 

Something that can shed some more light on this

 

Venator

Power output

Peak: 3,6 × 10^24 W[1]

 

 

Imperial I

Power output

Peak: ~7,73 × 10^24 W[1][8]

 

 

any one who knows math can see that the Imperial has nearly DOUBLE the maximum power output.

A level yes, but the Venator is clearly unique. On top of that as well as having twice the maximum power output, it has more that double if not triple the number of laser batteries, which means said power is more widely spread.

 

So basically it cannot divert all its power into its batteries like the Venator can, there are simply too many. The Venator can, which makes those 8 turbolasers incredibly powerful and capable of downing warships in minutes.

 

Looking at both warships, I think the Venator was designed for lightning tactics whereas the ISDs are designed for attrition. Given that the Venator can deal collosal damage in a short amount of time, whereas an ISD can likely output more damage but over a longer period of time.

 

And then in addition to that, the Venator's shielding is fairly lax, whereas the ISDs are far more resilient. Though that may have just been a result of the time, a response to the Confederacy's massive prow cannons.

 

However as we know the Venator's upgraded their armor towards the tail end of the war and that tipped the scales massively, because it could perform lightning fast attacks and hold up against heavy fire which it couldn't before.

Edited June 17, 2014 by Beniboybling

[tunewalker]

A level yes, but the Venator is clearly unique. On top of that as well as having twice the maximum power output, it has more that double if not triple the number of laser batteries, which means said power is more widely spread.

 

So basically it cannot divert all its power into its batteries like the Venator can, there are simply too many. The Venator can, which makes those 8 turbolasers incredibly powerful and capable of downing warships in minutes.

 

Looking at both warships, I think the Venator was designed for lightning tactics whereas the ISDs are designed for attrition. Given that the Venator can deal collosal damage in a short amount of time, whereas an ISD can likely output more damage but over a longer period of time.

 

And then in addition to that, the Venator's shielding is fairly lax, whereas the ISDs are far more resilient. Though that may have just been a result of the time, a response to the Confederacy's massive prow cannons.

 

However as we know the Venator's upgraded their armor towards the tail end of the war and that tipped the scales massively, because it could perform lightning fast attacks and hold up against heavy fire which it couldn't before.

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/NK-7_ion_cannon

 

 

The imperial had 60 of these.

 

And I think you have completely missed the point of Overall Firepower.

 

If both ships are surrounded by other capital ships which is most likely able to handle it.... The Imperial. Also shielding weak on the Venator? " However, the slow opening and closing of the armored bow doors could leave the ship extremely vulnerable.

 

Although strong shielding was used to compensate for this weakness,"

 

The Venator shields are listed as "Shielding

Equipped (roughly equivalent to that of a Victory I-class Star Destroyer)" Which is no laughing matter for the size of the ship.

 

Yes the Venator's guns are more effecient we covered that. But there are only 8 of them, and like all guns they can only handle so much before it becomes an issue.

 

I guess this is what you mean by lightning attacks, but at the same time this is what I am talking about with overall firepower. The fight between the Invisible Hand and the Guarlara was a fairly lengthy one. It wasnt as easy as "just One Two punch shields and ship down" and that fight lasted just as long as any Imperial-class vs Mon Cal Star Cruiser generally lasts and the Mon Cal Ships have MUCH thicker armor and shielding then the Invisible Hand.

 

That is all the proof I need to determine the Imperial the Winner in overall firepower. Both ships 1v1 another ship take the same time, but the Imperial fights a much more robust target.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Tune I dunno if you covered this, but what about the power source for the ships?

 

Abit it might not make much difference, but the thing that powers an ISD the power output is equivalent to that of a minature sun.

 

Not sure about the Hypermatter reactors though.

[tunewalker]

Tune I dunno if you covered this, but what about the power source for the ships?

 

Abit it might not make much difference, but the thing that powers an ISD the power output is equivalent to that of a minature sun.

 

Not sure about the Hypermatter reactors though.

 

Ya just covered that, The difference in overall power output is nearly DOUBLE what the Venator's out put is.

 

 

Posts 77 and 79 have my full thoughts on power output.

Edited June 17, 2014 by tunewalker

[Beniboybling]

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/NK-7_ion_cannon

 

 

The imperial had 60 of these.

 

And I think you have completely missed the point of Overall Firepower.

 

If both ships are surrounded by other capital ships which is most likely able to handle it.... The Imperial. Also shielding weak on the Venator? " However, the slow opening and closing of the armored bow doors could leave the ship extremely vulnerable.

 

Although strong shielding was used to compensate for this weakness,"

 

The Venator shields are listed as "Shielding

Equipped (roughly equivalent to that of a Victory I-class Star Destroyer)" Which is no laughing matter for the size of the ship.

 

Yes the Venator's guns are more effecient we covered that. But there are only 8 of them, and like all guns they can only handle so much before it becomes an issue.

 

I guess this is what you mean by lightning attacks, but at the same time this is what I am talking about with overall firepower. The fight between the Invisible Hand and the Guarlara was a fairly lengthy one. It wasnt as easy as "just One Two punch shields and ship down" and that fight lasted just as long as any Imperial-class vs Mon Cal Star Cruiser generally lasts and the Mon Cal Ships have MUCH thicker armor and shielding then the Invisible Hand.

 

That is all the proof I need to determine the Imperial the Winner in overall firepower. Both ships 1v1 another ship take the same time, but the Imperial fights a much more robust target.

Your point? The ISD spreads its firepower across multiple batteries for attrition style tactics, the Venator concentrates is firepower it a select few batteries for lightning assaults, but I'd say this comes at the expense of shielding.

 

And regardless of what Wookieepedia says, this is evidently the case, I don't know if you seen the entire TCW series but we see a lot of Venator's in action, and all to often when they come under fire they go down

 

Though this is just a hypothesis, its probably more likely that as I said it was a response to the Confederacy's equally powerful prow cannons, which as you can see take out those Venator's pretty quick. If conventional shields can't hold up against that kind of firepower then you'd have to resort to overwhelming firepower of your own.

 

Regardless the product is the same, a warship with unprecedentedly powerful cannons that can blast their opponents to pieces in record time, but by diverting all that energy to the cannons their shields take a hit. Standard Venator tactics it seems is to hang back while fighters soften up the enemy, then rush in and finish them quickly.

 

I'd certainly wouldn't call the fight between the Guarlara and the Invisible Hand long, it sidled right up to that thing and blew it to pieces in minutes, before long it was falling out of orbit, the exposition demanded such quick action.

 

It lasted seconds. I'd like to see an ISD take out anything that quickly, not that I'm denying this evidence is circumstantial. Also here is a little dialogue for the TCW episode Cat & Mouse:

 

YULAREN: The command ship is bearing down on us. Full forward shields, incoming fire!

 

...

 

ANAKIN: Over fire all reactors, we're gonna blow right past this guy. Whoever he is.

 

And that's in reference to the Invincible, a dreadnought variant of the Providence-class i.e. twice as big. Perhaps Anakin was being overconfident here, but it prompted Trench to intensify his forward deflector shields.

 

In regards to the ISD, the Venator would certainly opt for these tactics, I have little doubt that after a brief bout of intensive fire the Venator could break through the ISD's shields and start hitting hard, especially if it managed to strike as those shield generators. And then we have the fighters and bombers, that could easily use trench run tactics to overwhelm the ISD completely. And with its armor upgrades it would have to worry about return fire.

 

Without mentioning the possibility of the Venator sidling right up along side the ISD and blowing it to pieces. The Venator has what look like flak-guns built in to its sides, physical projectiles which would pass right through their shields, whereas the ISD doesn't seem to have such capabilities and half of its firepower is cut off through such a maneuver.

Edited June 17, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Kaedusz]

WoW was the first mmo.

[tunewalker]

Your point? The ISD spreads its firepower across multiple batteries for attrition style tactics, the Venator concentrates is firepower it a select few batteries for lightning assaults, but I'd say this comes at the expense of shielding.

 

And regardless of what Wookieepedia says, this is evidently the case, I don't know if you seen the entire TCW series but we see a lot of Venator's in action, and all to often when they come under fire they go down

 

Though this is just a hypothesis, its probably more likely that as I said it was a response to the Confederacy's equally powerful prow cannons, which as you can see take out those Venator's pretty quick. If conventional shields can't hold up against that kind of firepower then you'd have to resort to overwhelming firepower of your own.

 

Regardless the product is the same, a warship with unprecedentedly powerful cannons that can blast their opponents to pieces in record time, but by diverting all that energy to the cannons their shields take a hit. Standard Venator tactics it seems is to hang back while fighters soften up the enemy, then rush in and finish them quickly.

 

I'd certainly wouldn't call the fight between the Guarlara and the Invisible Hand long, it sidled right up to that thing and blew it to pieces in minutes, before long it was falling out of orbit, the exposition demanded such quick action.

 

It lasted seconds. I'd like to see an ISD take out anything that quickly, not that I'm denying this evidence is circumstantial. Also here is a little dialogue for the TCW episode Cat & Mouse:

 

YULAREN: The command ship is bearing down on us. Full forward shields, incoming fire!

 

...

 

ANAKIN: Over fire all reactors, we're gonna blow right past this guy. Whoever he is.

 

And that's in reference to the Invincible, a dreadnought variant of the Providence-class i.e. twice as big. Perhaps Anakin was being overconfident here, but it prompted Trench to intensify his forward deflector shields.

 

In regards to the ISD, the Venator would certainly opt for these tactics, I have little doubt that after a brief bout of intensive fire the Venator could break through the ISD's shields and start hitting hard, especially if it managed to strike as those shield generators. And then we have the fighters and bombers, that could easily use trench run tactics to overwhelm the ISD completely. And with its armor upgrades it would have to worry about return fire.

 

Without mentioning the possibility of the Venator sidling right up along side the ISD and blowing it to pieces. The Venator has what look like flak-guns built in to its sides, physical projectiles which would pass right through their shields, whereas the ISD doesn't seem to have such capabilities and half of its firepower is cut off through such a maneuver.

 

Last I checked the Invisible hand and the Gaurlala were fighting for the entire time Anakin was trying to escape from it and possibly even during the duel with dooku. It lasted several minutes.

 

I have seen the entire series, and yes Imperial have torn apart Mon Cal ships just as quickly. Thats the point. Venator destroys Providence just as quickly as imperial destroys Mon Cal... Mon Cal is tougher then Providence thus Imperial has more fire power done debate over.

 

 

Edit: funny thing about the clip you showed. they were holding up just fine until shields fell, as soon as shields fell they dropped like flies. I am willing to bet neither ship had their armor up to date for the Movie fight we see in Episode 3 since BOTH ships last longer in that battle then they do in TCW tv show/ (remember it was year 3 upgrades..... and the Clone wars lasted 3 years.... meaning neither ship had the armor until that final year thus movie is the best interpretation of how long the fight would last, and its the same length as any Mon cal Vs Imperial ship battle lasts.)

Edited June 17, 2014 by tunewalker

[Beniboybling]

Last I checked the Invisible hand and the Gaurlala were fighting for the entire time Anakin was trying to escape from it and possibly even during the duel with dooku. It lasted several minutes.

 

I have seen the entire series, and yes Imperial have torn apart Mon Cal ships just as quickly. Thats the point. Venator destroys Providence just as quickly as imperial destroys Mon Cal... Mon Cal is tougher then Providence thus Imperial has more fire power done debate over.

 

 

Edit: funny thing about the clip you showed. they were holding up just fine until shields fell, as soon as shields fell they dropped like flies.

You may which to check again, perhaps its in the novel but in the movie we see this one clip of a Venator moving it to pass by the Invisible Hand, they pass bye, there are some explosions, and then the ship plunges towards the planet. All within moments of rescuing the Chancellor. So basically not at all, at least as far as the movie is concerned.

 

Perhaps you'd like to provide some examples? Doesn't seem likely.

 

Well that's the idea, you knock down the shields then do hull damage. The Munificent had the power to knock down said shields with a few shots which may have been why the Venator opted for its own powerful cannons.

[tunewalker]

You may which to check again, perhaps its in the novel but in the movie we see this one clip of a Venator moving it to pass by the Invisible Hand, they pass bye, there are some explosions, and then the ship plunges towards the planet. All within moments of rescuing the Chancellor. So basically not at all, at least as far as the movie is concerned.

 

Perhaps you'd like to provide some examples? Doesn't seem likely.

 

Well that's the idea, you knock down the shields then do hull damage. The Munificent had the power to knock down said shields with a few shots which may have been why the Venator opted for its own powerful cannons.

 

your talking about this right, well I love how every one doesnt account for the fact that this battle was lasting long enough for Obi-wan and Anakin to ARRIVE FROM THE OUTER RIM. None of these ships were fresh they had all been fighting for hours above coruscaunt. Look at the back ground stuff during all of the scenes. Ships are standing still right next to each other firing and not getting blown up at all. It takes time these 2 ships had been fighting others for some time, and yes in books we have seen Imp I's do the same to Mon Cal ships.

 

I mean lets look at 2 scenes shall we

 

and

4:14 sound familiar.....

 

 

Edit: The alliance had Providence-class ships http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Rebel_One even modified to be tougher and they faired worse against he Imp I's then they had faired against the Venator. Further more we already know that the tipping point for the alliance actually having a naval fighting force to compete they needed the Mon Cal and the sullustians even though they had these old providence classes. Clearly the providence werent tough enough and thats why they needed the other ships Meaning the Imp I's preformed better against the Providence as the Venator had done so previously.

 

 

Edit 2: I think I understand better what you mean about "weaker shields" your taking about them diverting their shield power to weapon power for more piercing firepower and damage in a short time. Again this makes them just as vulnerable as their enemy, and this may have been the reason for the Imp I's success it didnt need to sacrifice shield strength for firepower. It had enough firepower to take down the same ships as the Venator it around the same time, but with out putting it in as much harms way, simply because its spread damage was that much higher and its shields were that much stronger.

 

All-in-all this still goes back to the fundemental of what i was talking about a while back. The Venator is not going to be a better destroyer then a designated destroyer, nor is it going to be a better carrier then a designated carrier. It is a multi role ship thus allowing it to preform both roles even if not as well as the other ships.

 

 

(also I really dont think we should use clone wars for the Venator's abilities after all if we did Venators would have 1... maybe 2 squads of fighters at the most. In both the movies and the shows the Imperial ships have fielded more fighters then the Venators)

Edited June 17, 2014 by tunewalker

[Beniboybling]

your talking about this right, well I love how every one doesnt account for the fact that this battle was lasting long enough for Obi-wan and Anakin to ARRIVE FROM THE OUTER RIM. None of these ships were fresh they had all been fighting for hours above coruscaunt. Look at the back ground stuff during all of the scenes. Ships are standing still right next to each other firing and not getting blown up at all. It takes time these 2 ships had been fighting others for some time, and yes in books we have seen Imp I's do the same to Mon Cal ships.

 

I mean lets look at 2 scenes shall we

 

and

4:14 sound familiar.....

 

 

Edit: The alliance had Providence-class ships http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Rebel_One even modified to be tougher and they faired worse against he Imp I's then they had faired against the Venator. Further more we already know that the tipping point for the alliance actually having a naval fighting force to compete they needed the Mon Cal and the sullustians even though they had these old providence classes. Clearly the providence werent tough enough and thats why they needed the other ships Meaning the Imp I's preformed better against the Providence as the Venator had done so previously.

 

 

Edit 2: I think I understand better what you mean about "weaker shields" your taking about them diverting their shield power to weapon power for more piercing firepower and damage in a short time. Again this makes them just as vulnerable as their enemy, and this may have been the reason for the Imp I's success it didnt need to sacrifice shield strength for firepower. It had enough firepower to take down the same ships as the Venator it around the same time, but with out putting it in as much harms way, simply because its spread damage was that much higher and its shields were that much stronger.

 

All-in-all this still goes back to the fundemental of what i was talking about a while back. The Venator is not going to be a better destroyer then a designated destroyer, nor is it going to be a better carrier then a designated carrier. It is a multi role ship thus allowing it to preform both roles even if not as well as the other ships.

 

 

(also I really dont think we should use clone wars for the Venator's abilities after all if we did Venators would have 1... maybe 2 squads of fighters at the most. In both the movies and the shows the Imperial ships have fielded more fighters then the Venators)

As I said:

 

"...not that I'm denying this evidence is circumstantial."

 

Your the one who brought up this evidence, not me. IMO its an inaccurate demonstration of the Venator's capabilities given that the Invisible Hand was likely already damaged. Nonetheless it does show how powerful those cannons are. Noting that they are physical projectiles, so the state of the deflector shields is irrelevant.

 

Lets be clear on one thing however, the fight between the Invisible Hand and said Venator lasted seconds. See

 

The vessels are clearly a distance apart, then they pass each other with Grievous saying "Prepare for attack!" - the ships open fire and mere seconds later (the attack starts just as Anakin frees the Chancellor, see the initial explosion that causes then to stagger) the Invisible Hand is defeated and plunges towards the planet's surface.

 

I was merely correcting your mistake here, nothing more. Lets not hold me accountable for anything just yet.

 

Anyway I still see no proof that an ISD can take down an MC80 in a matter of seconds. This certainly did not occur during the Battle of Endor, quite the opposite in-fact when they went ship to ship. So I'm afraid I'm not convinced.

 

P.S. That final part is indeed correct, but in this case two halves make a whole. Or as

 

...Yep, I went there.

Edited June 18, 2014 by Beniboybling

[tunewalker]

As I said:

 

"...not that I'm denying this evidence is circumstantial."

 

Your the one who brought up this evidence, not me. IMO its an inaccurate demonstration of the Venator's capabilities given that the Invisible Hand was likely already damaged. Nonetheless it does show how powerful those cannons are. Noting that they are physical projectiles, so the state of the deflector shields is irrelevant.

 

Lets be clear on one thing however, the fight between the Invisible Hand and said Venator lasted seconds. See

 

The vessels are clearly a distance apart, then they pass each other with Grievous saying "Prepare for attack!" - the ships open fire and mere seconds later (the attack starts just as Anakin frees the Chancellor, see the initial explosion that causes then to stagger) the Invisible Hand is defeated and plunges towards the planet's surface.

 

I was merely correcting your mistake here, nothing more. Lets not hold me accountable for anything just yet.

 

Anyway I still see no proof that an ISD can take down an MC80 in a matter of seconds. This certainly did not occur during the Battle of Endor, quite the opposite in-fact when they went ship to ship. So I'm afraid I'm not convinced.

 

P.S. That final part is indeed correct, but in this case two halves make a whole. Or as

 

...Yep, I went there.

 

Ya I noticed the mistake. You are right they did just pass each other in that instance. I still maintain my original calculations for firepower on post 65. There is a reason why the Providence preformed worse during the GCW then it did in the Clone wars in ship to ship fighting, and I feel the Imp I's firepower combined with its ability to take hit better then the Venator of the past allowed for just that.

 

The fundimental is all that I am really interested in pointing out. That a dedicated Destroyer isnt going to be beat at its dedicated role by a hybrid ship and that if that hybrid ship wants to win it HAS to use the larger variaty of tactical options at its disposal to do so. Not fight at point blank range, but use its fighter wings to destroy some of the Imperials dangerous weapons and keep out of range using its main guns at a range where only the Imps less effective and less efficient main guns can be used. At that range it might be able to last long enough for the fighters to do crippling damage and for its Main guns out damaging the Imp's main guns to make a big enough difference to overcome the stronger shields on the Imp I and thus win that attrition battle.

[Ventessel]

Who is to say that a hybrid warship cannot defeat a dedicated one?

 

If you have better technology, a bigger budget for production, and more efficient systems... could you not build a warship which is superior in all aspects?

 

I'm a huge fan of the Venator because it looks ******. Star Wars science really isn't accurate enough to allow a stable comparison of two vessels from different eras unless an author specifically dives into the details of such an engagement.

 

If you've got a bigger power generator, you can put out stronger shields and devote more juice to the guns. Thus, you will smack down someone who has less juice to play with and has to sacrifice more shielding/firepower.

 

In the realm of high-powered energy weapons, most armor is a joke. It's like slapping a band-aid on an arterial cut. You might buy a few seconds, but that's it.

 

For an interesting aside, I was recently playing some SW: Empire at War using a lovingly created mod called Phoenix Rising. For fans of the RTS genre, it's nigh-unbeatable in terms of rendering the GCW era starships and fighters down to the individual turbolaser battery. I tested out my bomber theory for kicks, and you really can't beat a swarm of proton torpedoes for absolutely wrecking capitol ships and frigates. In terms of cost/benefit, fast bomber squadrons (XG-1 Star Wings, for example. These were a favorite of our buddy Thrawn) are the ultimate antidote to those expensive deathtraps they call "Star Destroyers".

[tunewalker]

agreed with that, but it is clear there is a level of power adjustment on all ships just from the movies and games and such. Though that doesnt change the fact that the Venator's DBY's were still toated as more efficient with more settings. Other then that I dont think that changes my overall assessment of overall firepower on the previous page .

 

 

Something that can shed some more light on this

 

Venator

Power output

Peak: 3,6 × 10^24 W[1]

 

 

Imperial I

Power output

Peak: ~7,73 × 10^24 W[1][8]

 

 

any one who knows math can see that the Imperial has nearly DOUBLE the maximum power output.

 

Quoting myself. Imperial has more then double power out put of the Venator so as a Destroyer it will inevitably have stronger shields and weapons even if the Venator's weapons are more efficient the Imperial has so much more energy it doesnt matter. Overall shield and Firepower strength makes it the better Destroyer.

 

As far as Empire at war, every one already knows this. It is a game mechanic and does not show the proper number of fighters or guns on any of the ships.

 

Basically. Star destroyers beat anything smaller except bombers and fighters to a small degree, Bombers are beat by Corvettes and Fighters, Fighters are also beat by corvettes and Frigates, Corvettes are beaten by Frigates and Destroyers. The game mechanic does not encourage stacking one ship type. Even the empire has the http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Tartan-class_patrol_cruiser in the game specifically designed to WRECK bombers and fighters.

 

Well played some one should have a ballanced team in that game, and the Imperial-class is AMAZING to have in that game because the garison extra fighters and bombers can be used to keep bombers off you while your Tartan wrecks their fighters and your bombers go wreck their Mon Cal Ships and your Imp Destroyer just wrecks everything else on the field.

 

Empire at War is a great game but not really great at showing how these things work.

[Ventessel]

Quoting myself. Imperial has more then double power out put of the Venator so as a Destroyer it will inevitably have stronger shields and weapons even if the Venator's weapons are more efficient the Imperial has so much more energy it doesnt matter. Overall shield and Firepower strength makes it the better Destroyer.

No arguments here!

 

In a straight up fight, the guy with more juice wins. However, it's stupid to fight head to head like that when you have superior fighter forces.

As far as Empire at war, every one already knows this. It is a game mechanic and does not show the proper number of fighters or guns on any of the ships.

 

Empire at War is a great game but not really great at showing how these things work.

That's why I referenced the Phoenix Rising mod. It's a nigh-religious reconstruction of canon warships and starfighters, and reworks the entire balance of the game to be in line with Star Wars canon. It's quite impressive, if you enjoyed the original game but wanted a little more hardcore, true-to-the-lore experience that also has incredible depth and diversity, check it out. They get the details down to the concussion missile launchers and backup power generators, haha.

Basically. Star destroyers beat anything smaller except bombers and fighters to a small degree, Bombers are beat by Corvettes and Fighters, Fighters are also beat by corvettes and Frigates, Corvettes are beaten by Frigates and Destroyers. The game mechanic does not encourage stacking one ship type. Even the empire has the http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Tartan-class_patrol_cruiser in the game specifically designed to WRECK bombers and fighters.

 

Well played some one should have a ballanced team in that game, and the Imperial-class is AMAZING to have in that game because the garison extra fighters and bombers can be used to keep bombers off you while your Tartan wrecks their fighters and your bombers go wreck their Mon Cal Ships and your Imp Destroyer just wrecks everything else on the field.

Here's the thing, as powerful as capital ships are their biggest vulnerability is other capital ships and BOMBERS. The best antidote to bombers are fighter interceptors and/or light frigates. Other fighters can deal with the interceptors ship to ship, and pocket cruisers can shred the light frigates with turbolaser fire.

 

An ideal fleet has a flexible strike force of bombers, medium fighters for patrol/defense, and some smaller cruisers that can provide turbolaser cover fire for the strike force to knock out the screening frigates that protect the enemy capital ships.

 

At no point are capital ships really necessary, unless you need them to carry large amounts of non-hyperdrive equipped fighters (which may be cheaper in the long run than spending money on all those hyperdrives).

[tunewalker]

No arguments here!

 

In a straight up fight, the guy with more juice wins. However, it's stupid to fight head to head like that when you have superior fighter forces.

 

That's why I referenced the Phoenix Rising mod. It's a nigh-religious reconstruction of canon warships and starfighters, and reworks the entire balance of the game to be in line with Star Wars canon. It's quite impressive, if you enjoyed the original game but wanted a little more hardcore, true-to-the-lore experience that also has incredible depth and diversity, check it out. They get the details down to the concussion missile launchers and backup power generators, haha.

 

Here's the thing, as powerful as capital ships are their biggest vulnerability is other capital ships and BOMBERS. The best antidote to bombers are fighter interceptors and/or light frigates. Other fighters can deal with the interceptors ship to ship, and pocket cruisers can shred the light frigates with turbolaser fire.

 

An ideal fleet has a flexible strike force of bombers, medium fighters for patrol/defense, and some smaller cruisers that can provide turbolaser cover fire for the strike force to knock out the screening frigates that protect the enemy capital ships.

 

At no point are capital ships really necessary, unless you need them to carry large amounts of non-hyperdrive equipped fighters (which may be cheaper in the long run than spending money on all those hyperdrives).

 

Yep its cost effective, and if you have enough screening fighters and corvettes, the enemies frigates and corvettes would get wrecked by the larger ship.

 

 

I would like to note the number of times I have said I wasnt talking tactics. If Tactics were to be talked about I think the Venator CAN win. Staying at a distance so only the 2 cap ships main guns could work and then just using Trench Disease against the IMP's. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Trench_Run_Defense This is what you are experiencing with the Mod probably. And this is exactly the part of the Doctrine Tarkin was counting on people not realizing. Power output wise, shield wise, firepower wise and Size wise the Imperial was nearly unmatched, but its flaws came from tactical options and efficiency. Tarkin counted on people just looking at it and freaking that they wouldnt utilize its weaknesses.

 

However, this does NOT mean other ships didnt have their own weaknesses. Nor does this mean Bigger capital ships are useless example.....

 

"The Home One types had more armor and armaments than the Liberty type, and were subsequently more rare. Standard armament for the subclass included 36 turbolasers, 36 heavy ion cannons and six tractor beam projectors.[1] Home One types lacked the Executor's point defense laser systems because their turbolasers' tracking systems were sufficient in targeting and destroying smaller craft and starfighters. Their turbolasers were also capable of planetary bombardment, although they were seldom used in this capacity."

 

Here we see that even though it had turbo lasers instead of Point defense guns, it was more capable of defending against fighters then the Imperial ships, and in fact didnt suffer from the same trench disease as the larger Executor because of its more rounded hull and that its vital points were all extremely well defended.

[Ventessel]

I sincerely doubt that turbolasers would be effective against fighter squadrons. They have a slower rate of fire, so no matter how good the targeting systems, fighters will still evade them. The reason PD laser batteries work is because they rely on rapid fire saturation techniques to ensure a hit against the incoming fighter.

 

Furthermore, what do you actually GAIN by using a capital ship? A large, expensive target that is vulnerable in many ways?

 

The two stand out examples are tractor beams and orbital bombardment. In fairness, the tractor beam does rely on the mass of the starship deploying it. Orbital bombardment however would be more effectively carried out by bombers and fighters anyways.

[tunewalker]

I sincerely doubt that turbolasers would be effective against fighter squadrons. They have a slower rate of fire, so no matter how good the targeting systems, fighters will still evade them. The reason PD laser batteries work is because they rely on rapid fire saturation techniques to ensure a hit against the incoming fighter.

 

Furthermore, what do you actually GAIN by using a capital ship? A large, expensive target that is vulnerable in many ways?

 

The two stand out examples are tractor beams and orbital bombardment. In fairness, the tractor beam does rely on the mass of the starship deploying it. Orbital bombardment however would be more effectively carried out by bombers and fighters anyways.

 

Hey it says it sourced. Aparantly for the MC80 that is the case. Those Turbo lasers can shoot down fighters. And we already covered different setting heck, I can link you information on the Venators guns as well they have a setting for killing fighter swarms beyond just their point defense guns by changing power setting and rate of fire.

 

". Second was the one-two continual firing pattern, utilized against small swarming enemies by creating flak. The firing setting determined how many shots could be fired before stopping to prevent the turbolaser from overheating, so low settings were often used with this pattern"

 

Not to mention capital ships are surprisingly fast and they are much tougher and have more firepower then you are giving them credit for. In the SW universe Capital ships have been used for a long time and have been the backbone of every fleet since forever. No ship is perfect but they all have their place.

 

 

Tell you what a fighter squad cant do.... troop transport. Capital ships are the only way to securely move large batallions of troops. There are other large cargo ships that can do it, but they are not armed enough or armored enough or have enough firepower to defend themselves while transporting said troops.

 

 

Further more I dont think enough credit is being given to craft if they have enough armor. "The armor on the inside of the ship was strong enough to prevent a complete destruction of the vessel, even in the case of a nuclear detonation inside a hangar.[1]" Describing the INSIDE armor of the Mediator, not even talking about the outside.

 

A proper missile defense system like Flak guns or http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Antimissile_octet is all thats needed other then fighters to defend a capital ship against bombers. And once that happens the only thing that can take one down is a bigger better capital ship. Clearly not a death trap. The enemy only has so many bombs and so many bombers and the bombs themselves by comparison are probably fairly expensive, especially by comparison to space superiority fighters to defend against bombers. Not to mention it still takes more then 1 bomb to take down a Capital ship it takes multiple bombers all of which or even as a collective are easier to take down then a Capital ship.

 

Bombers can be taken down by, Fighters, Corvettes, Frigates, And Capital ships with the proper equipment and I am willing to bet 2 out of those things are cheaper then the Bomber itself, deffinitely the fighter is.

 

Capital ships on the other hand require either Bombers or better capital ships, and even then if properly equiped the Bombers dont have a great chance of taking down the Capital ship since its been very clear you need more then 1 bomber to take one down. You need an entire squad to make it through the Flak, the Corvette, Frigate and Fighter squad and past any Bomb or missile defense system and all deliver their package to a very particular point.

 

Bombers are much more specialized. And thats not a bad thing, but its not bad to have a Generalized ship, it costs so much less to replenish turbo laser energy then it does to replenish physical bombs and Missiles that might not even hit their mark.

 

 

All-in-all Capital ships are the backbone because they are the most reliable ships in a navy. They are the hardest to bring down and act as both a deterant for all smaller ships as well as troop transport and command station, some even have docking facilities to allow frigates to dock with them for food transfer and the like.

 

While not all that maneuverable they are fast, in sub light speeds they had no trouble keeping up with the Millenium Falcon OR the Tantive IV and in fact began to over take both in pure speed.

 

There is a long list of why capital ships are the back bone of a navy, and why each one is worth talking about. Each has its different strengths and its different weaknesses, but none of them are "Worthless" not in the SW universe and not in RL.

 

Just cus an Aircraft Carrier is bigger and packs way more firepower with its fighters doesnt mean a Destroyer is obsolete, or a sub is obsolete. They have purpose and so do Capital ships in SW.

Edited June 20, 2014 by tunewalker

[Silenceo]

Recently tried that Phoenix Rising mod, quite fun and gives lots more power to the capital ships, though the loading times are killer...Nice find never the less. Though, as Tune as said in this thread, and as I have said in the past, game mechanics must be put aside or else we shall all go crazy and everything will be in disarray!

 

PROPOSAL: If the Venator topic is quite finished, what are your opinions on indirect vs direct fire support? For a good example, the SPHA and the SPMA.

Edited June 21, 2014 by Silenceo

[Warren-Stride]

For Show: Carbonite. Literally.

 

Sorry, I've been meaning to post that for a while.

[Silenceo]

For Show: Carbonite. Literally.

 

Sorry, I've been meaning to post that for a while.

 

Agreed, 4 words. Han Solo Wall Decoration. That is all. Though, what do you think of the military/bounty hunter applications of carbonite?

[Ventessel]

Recently tried that Phoenix Rising mod, quite fun and gives lots more power to the capital ships, though the loading times are killer...Nice find never the less. Though, as Tune as said in this thread, and as I have said in the past, game mechanics must be put aside or else we shall all go crazy and everything will be in disarray!

 

PROPOSAL: If the Venator topic is quite finished, what are your opinions on indirect vs direct fire support? For a good example, the SPHA and the SPMA.

 

On the note of game mechanics, I would like to point out that many of the "technical details" for a lot of military hardware originally comes from '90s era Star Wars games. Oh, the irony and potential for paradoxical loops...

 

Movie and novel writers are frequently less concerned with the technical particulars of weapons and shielding systems and more with how the presence or absence of said systems affects the story being told.

 

Moving on, I'm 100% behind indirect fire in almost every application. Over-the-horizon targeting capabilities (provided by overhead "eyes" or by remote spotters) are a game changer for any fighting force. Direct fire is only useful when fighting in enclosed areas (read: urban environments) where indirect firing arcs are often obstructed.