Bioware: Most of your players are pvp'ers.... figure it out!

[TUXs]

It has EVERYTHING to do with the "vast" difference. Because neither of us wants to run what you call "PvE dailies", but you somehow think that I should be forced to run them if I want credits, but you do not.

 

I'm unsure what you mean. I'm comparing apples to apples (daily missions to daily missions). Are you talking about something like just doing Ops being as profitable? Unfortunately, the PvP missions are limited to only the daily (weekly) one...we have no other choice (assuming I was a pure PvPer) to run any other type of PvP oriented mission for $.

[Icebergy]

I'm unsure what you mean. I'm comparing apples to apples (daily missions to daily missions). Are you talking about something like just doing Ops being as profitable? Unfortunately, the PvP missions are limited to only the daily (weekly) one...we have no other choice (assuming I was a pure PvPer) to run any other type of PvP oriented mission for $.

 

What I mean is this. I enjoy running the new daily areas (CZ-198, Oricon, etc) once or twice for the story. I do not enjoy grinding them for credits. Your premise seems to be that its OK for me to have to go and grind them every day if I want credits, but its not OK for PvPers to have to do that if they want credits.

 

The point is moot either way since neither PvP nor PvE are the way to get rich in game and every player has equal access to the ways to actually get rich.

[TUXs]

What I mean is this. I enjoy running the new daily areas (CZ-198, Oricon, etc) once or twice for the story. I do not enjoy grinding them for credits. Your premise seems to be that its OK for me to have to go and grind them every day if I want credits, but its not OK for PvPers to have to do that if they want credits.

 

The point is moot either way since neither PvP nor PvE are the way to get rich in game and every player has equal access to the ways to actually get rich.

I said no such thing. I'm simply making the comparison of the PvP mission daily payouts to the PvE mission daily payouts.

 

I'm not trying to lump anything NOT PvP as PvE...I'm comparing only the daily missions available, the time it takes to run them, and the credits possible from them in that time. I'm not suggesting that PvPers should get 500k per daily mission, but when CZ-198 takes 10-15 min to complete for a quick 70+k, and ONE warzone takes that long for no payout at all, things are out of whack. 50K for the PvP daily would be a good amount imo. Not enough to make PvPers rich, but enough to help close the huge gap that exists.

[branmakmuffin]

Yet another PvPer who thinks this game revolves around PvPing.

 

[ivanhedgehog]

I'm unsure what you mean. I'm comparing apples to apples (daily missions to daily missions). Are you talking about something like just doing Ops being as profitable? Unfortunately, the PvP missions are limited to only the daily (weekly) one...we have no other choice (assuming I was a pure PvPer) to run any other type of PvP oriented mission for $.

 

when they introduce a daily op mission to the game, they can set the reward to the same level that pvp gets. unfortunately, there is no such mission so pve'ers are stuck doing the same daily grind that you have available. Why should raiders have to do something besides ops in order to pay the bills?

[robertthebard]

when they introduce a daily op mission to the game, they can set the reward to the same level that pvp gets. unfortunately, there is no such mission so pve'ers are stuck doing the same daily grind that you have available. Why should raiders have to do something besides ops in order to pay the bills?

 

I'd be fine with them setting the PvP dailies to the same level as the PvE dailies, so long as they adjust the overhead for doing said missions accordingly. Of course, I've already been told that that's a stupid idea, because they'll die in PvP. They want the perks, but they don't want the consequences of having said perks. Of course, this is all moot since it's not like they are locked out of doing the same content they point at to make money, except, of course, by choice.

[Khevar]

I'd be fine with them setting the PvP dailies to the same level as the PvE dailies, so long as they adjust the overhead for doing said missions accordingly. Of course, I've already been told that that's a stupid idea, because they'll die in PvP. They want the perks, but they don't want the consequences of having said perks. Of course, this is all moot since it's not like they are locked out of doing the same content they point at to make money, except, of course, by choice.

There's one big flaw in your argument. PvE repair bills come primarily from progression raiding, and secondarily from derp pug groups in flashpoints.

 

Repair bills during dailies are largely irrelevant.

 

Unless you're trying to say you wipe 15 times during dailies and get a huge repair bill?

[Icebergy]

There's one big flaw in your argument. PvE repair bills come primarily from progression raiding, and secondarily from derp pug groups in flashpoints.

 

Repair bills during dailies are largely irrelevant.

 

Unless you're trying to say you wipe 15 times during dailies and get a huge repair bill?

 

This is more of an argument for increasing repair bills from dailies or removing repairs from raiding than for increasing rewards for PvP.

[Khevar]

This is more of an argument for increasing repair bills from dailies or removing repairs from raiding than for increasing rewards for PvP.

I suppose if you subscribe to the school of thought that raiders should be over here -------->

 

<----------- and PvP players should be over there

 

And never cross.

 

Every end-game raider that I know personally does both. Raid times are scheduled, but our people still log in at other times. Weekends are often PvP for most of the day, as raid times are at night. I don't see anything wrong with giving our people the option of making repair bill money from PvP.

 

I'm not specifically lobbying on it's behalf, mind you. I just don't object to it.

 

But I do find it silly to say "dailies incur repair bills" as a reason to say "PvP deaths should have repair bills". Generally speaking, people don't die doing dailies.

Edited May 17, 2014 by Khevar

[robertthebard]

There's one big flaw in your argument. PvE repair bills come primarily from progression raiding, and secondarily from derp pug groups in flashpoints.

 

Repair bills during dailies are largely irrelevant.

 

Unless you're trying to say you wipe 15 times during dailies and get a huge repair bill?

 

My tank has repair bills every time I run a FP/Op because I tank. If you're running a DPS with no repair bills barring a wipe in Raiding, thank your tank. The broader point here is that there is a sink in place for some of the credits I make when doing these activities, there is no sink in place for PvP. The argument for swapping mods shouldn't really be an issue if one is only PvPing, since one shouldn't have to swap mods. No real overhead means that, in order to keep a lid on the economy of the entire game, the amount of credits produced from nowhere needs to be tightly monitored. Throwing this out the window and just increasing profits for PvP because it's PvP will be detrimental to the economy.

 

If they are going to increase the profits, apparently dramatically, then they are going to have to add sinks. Repairs exist as a sink to keep limitless "out of nowhere" credits out of the game. If, as proposed, the ability to make every bit as much money in PvP as you can make in PvE is the scenario they're going for, then repairs won't hurt them any more than it hurts me. Except, of course that they don't want that, they just want increased income.

[Icebergy]

I suppose if you subscribe to the school of thought that raiders should be over here -------->

 

<----------- and PvP players should be over there

 

And never cross.

 

That is exactly what the OP and the people who agree with him are arguing. They refuse to do anything that they label as not PvP and then they complain that they are broke.

[Khevar]

... there is no sink in place for PvP. ...

There's no sink in place if you don't run operations either. You're putting "dailies" together with "progression raiding", and putting "PvP" in a different group.

 

There are 3 things we're discussing here:

 

1. Dailies

2. Raiding

3. PvP

 

If you don't raid, but do run dailies, repair bills aren't going to be a credit sink.

That is exactly what the OP and the people who agree with him are arguing. They refuse to do anything that they label as not PvP and then they complain that they are broke.

True, and I don't subscribe to that school of thought that the OP is pushing.

 

I just disagree with the premise that it's "fair" to add repair bills into PvP because "dailies have repair bills".

Edited May 17, 2014 by Khevar

[robertthebard]

There's no sink in place if you don't run operations either. You're putting "dailies" together with "progression raiding", and putting "PvP" in a different group.

 

There are 3 things here:

 

1. Dailies

2. Raiding

3. PvP

 

If you don't raid, but do run dailies, repair bills aren't going to be a credit sink.

 

True, and I don't subscribe to that school of thought that the OP is pushing.

 

I just disagree with the premise that it's "fair" to add repair bills into PvP because "dailies have repair bills".

 

Then you're missing my entire point: If they are going to make PvP dailies/weeklies pay the same as PvE content, which is what TUXs has asked for, then they need to have the sinks. Since they are asking for equal treatment, they should get it. They don't want to be treated equally, they want to have credits handed to them on a silver platter. This "I'll die, so I shouldn't have to pay repairs" isn't really valid if, as surmised, profits from PvE dailies and weeklies can cover repair costs, then those same profits from PvP content should as well. Assuming this was in place, and they're eating a million credits a day in repairs, maybe they should look at not PvPing? I mean, if they're that bad, do they really deserve to be called PvPers. Note that that million credits a day is the OPs claimed income from PvE dailies, so if PvP is paying the same, where's the harm in treating them equally, just like they're insisting upon?

[JediMasterSLC]

Why bother posting this in gen discussion, hive cluster of the apologists and carebears?

[Sangrar]

Why bother posting this in gen discussion, hive cluster of the apologists and carebears?

 

dude, seriously, you cannot deny the op posted a topic just to get attention by making a purposefully false statement. True pvp should get more attention but at the same time posting a thread in gen discussion spending day one of the thread shouting how pvpers clearly outnumber everyone else is so not the way to go.

[Khevar]

Then you're missing my entire point: If they are going to make PvP dailies/weeklies pay the same as PvE content, which is what TUXs has asked for, then they need to have the sinks.

I don't have a problem with making sure that increases in credit payouts have increases in credit sinks. I also don't have a problem adding credit sinks to PvP activities, either.

 

But I do have a problem adding them as repair bills for deaths. Here's why:

 

1. The repair bill credit sink from doing PvE dailies is irrelevant, because you hardly ever die.

2. Any repair bill credit sink in PvP would be significant, as players die a lot.

 

Surely you can see that it isn't a commensurate method of balancing a credit gain with a credit sink. Also:

 

3. PvE repair bills come from operations, not dailies.

4. Operations also drop valuable materials (EEEs and MMGs)

 

With the exception of a NM progression run, a guild's repair bills can often be covered by the sale of materials dropped in the operations. In other words, the repair bill credit sink of an operation is balanced out by the value of the materials dropped, so long as enough of the materials used to fund guild repairs.

 

Now, before we go too many rounds, let me re-iterate that I am not, in fact, lobbying on behalf of increasing PvP credit rewards. I'm just not opposed to it.

 

I am, however, opposed to the retort "then PvPers should have repair bills, too".

[mokkh]

I don't have a problem with making sure that increases in credit payouts have increases in credit sinks. I also don't have a problem adding credit sinks to PvP activities, either.

 

But I do have a problem adding them as repair bills for deaths. Here's why:

 

1. The repair bill credit sink from doing PvE dailies is irrelevant, because you hardly ever die.

2. Any repair bill credit sink in PvP would be significant, as players die a lot.

 

Surely you can see that it isn't a commensurate method of balancing a credit gain with a credit sink. Also:

 

3. PvE repair bills come from operations, not dailies.

4. Operations also drop valuable materials (EEEs and MMGs)

 

With the exception of a NM progression run, a guild's repair bills can often be covered by the sale of materials dropped in the operations. In other words, the repair bill credit sink of an operation is balanced out by the value of the materials dropped, so long as enough of the materials used to fund guild repairs.

 

Now, before we go too many rounds, let me re-iterate that I am not, in fact, lobbying on behalf of increasing PvP credit rewards. I'm just not opposed to it.

 

I am, however, opposed to the retort "then PvPers should have repair bills, too".

 

You do dailies to make up for losses in ops, this is correct.

Any repair bills from doing ops is significant, for precisely the same reason you mentioned.

Operations drop valuable materials, but not everyone in the operations gets them. Other than the "money bosses", I've never made significant money in ops. Also, I've run plenty of ops where I got absolutely nothing beneficial out of it, other than comms that yield armor without set bonuses; i.e. repair penalty with no rewards. Not only that, but when you do get a decent piece of gear you end up tearing it apart for singular modifications since the stat allocation in this game is so ridiculous; i.e. you also get a penalty from the reward doing pve.

 

The number of raids that fold with no loot generated at all is also quite high if you do any amount of pugging as well.

In other words, you have to win to get the high value mats and credits in ops. You only have to show up to get rewarded for pvping. I'm just glad the days of the afk end zone types in huttball are over. I mix up pve and pvp in this game since I want to play all aspects of the game, this thread is solely dedicated to (at least from the now deleted op) people who pvp only.

 

If the pvp only players want increased rewards then they need to share in a greater amount of penalties.

 

tl;dr: PVP allows for extensive deaths without penalty, by not opposing increased rewards without repair bills you are advocating increased rewards with no penalty. Check your logic.

[mokkh]

Why bother posting this in gen discussion, hive cluster of the apologists and carebears?

 

You're right, because the playerbase needs to have a more "us against them attitude." I like pvping on occasion, but I hate playing the game with backbiting stereotypical PVPers... esp. those that use epithets like "carebear" to describe people who help fund the game that they enjoy.

[robertthebard]

I don't have a problem with making sure that increases in credit payouts have increases in credit sinks. I also don't have a problem adding credit sinks to PvP activities, either.

 

But I do have a problem adding them as repair bills for deaths. Here's why:

 

1. The repair bill credit sink from doing PvE dailies is irrelevant, because you hardly ever die.

2. Any repair bill credit sink in PvP would be significant, as players die a lot.

 

Surely you can see that it isn't a commensurate method of balancing a credit gain with a credit sink. Also:

 

3. PvE repair bills come from operations, not dailies.

4. Operations also drop valuable materials (EEEs and MMGs)

 

With the exception of a NM progression run, a guild's repair bills can often be covered by the sale of materials dropped in the operations. In other words, the repair bill credit sink of an operation is balanced out by the value of the materials dropped, so long as enough of the materials used to fund guild repairs.

 

Now, before we go too many rounds, let me re-iterate that I am not, in fact, lobbying on behalf of increasing PvP credit rewards. I'm just not opposed to it.

 

I am, however, opposed to the retort "then PvPers should have repair bills, too".

 

So make the dailies pay the same as the PvE dailies, with the same stipulation: If you don't "win"/complete the daily, you don't get paid. After all, PvP is guaranteed to get paid, no matter what the outcome is, and this isn't the case with dailies. This completely ignores the "make the PvP dailies pay exactly the same as the PvE dailies" that was brought up earlier in this thread, in which somebody then pointed out that 200k in repairs isn't anything to a million credit pay out. If it applies to PvE, and PvP wants to be treated equally, then it should apply to them. All I'm doing is supporting that desire to be treated equally. Except, as you can see from your own post, that's not what's going on, it's just "give us more credits because we PvP".

[Khevar]

So make the dailies pay the same as the PvE dailies, with the same stipulation: If you don't "win"/complete the daily, you don't get paid.

Not a bad idea, actually.

[Reno_Tarshil]

Why bother posting this in gen discussion, hive cluster of the apologists and carebears?

 

Why bother posting at all if you're just going to use labels.

[Tsillah]

Why bother posting this in gen discussion, hive cluster of the apologists and carebears?

 

Yes, why did you bother?

[LordArtemis]

Why bother posting this in gen discussion, hive cluster of the apologists and carebears?

 

Because even dirty sneakers need love.

[JediMasterSLC]

And... my point is proven.

[Sangrar]

And... my point is proven.

 

translation: " I cannot think of a better argument to defend the OP's ludicrous claims so ironically I have to resort to calling anyone who disagrees with me a "defender" "