Is the F2P/Preffered system too prohibitive, and if so, what should change?

[LordArtemis]

Yea, I have to say, though certainly subs get quite a few perks, they still have to pay for most of the perks that F2P and Preferred can and do purchase.

 

I do not feel that subs get a free ride by any stretch. But I would concede that subs have to pay FAR LESS to make the game playable than F2P/Preferred players do, at least what I call playable.

Edited June 2, 2014 by LordArtemis

[Volthorne]

I rarely accuse someone of this but your entire post is very trolly

 

I dont for a second believe you spent $240.00 on Mechwarrior Online and think every whine post you make demanding more freebies for F2P in TOR is so you can go F2P and never support TOR in any financial manner again.

 

Your demands are EXACTLY why I look negatively at F2P crowd.

I just went back and double-checked. It's actually $210 (close enough to not matter):

• $60 Veteran Founder's Pack
  
• $120 Overlord Phoenix Pack
  
• $30 Mech Credits (hard-currency) for my brother
  

 

I can even post a screenshot. Here, have some proof! (though it doesn't show the $30 of MC for my brother, it does show both the Founder's badge and the Phoenix badge. Some quick googling should easily verify the prices of those packages if you're still skeptical)

 

do I think that f2p system is a bit too restrictive. in a sense - yes. I think more things should exist as unlocks that are sold for real money and then can be traded for in game credits. including blocks of subscription time (to bring up example of EVE - sell them for $20 instead of $15 regular subscription costs, allow people to sell them on GTN - curb gold sellers and allow more people to enjoy the game unrestricted )

For that to work they'd have to remove the credit cap for Freeps and Preferred, which is never going to happen for obvious reasons.

 

This is like saying someone who rents should have to pay for the stucco repair.

...Bad analogy is bad.

 

Yea, I have to say, though certainly subs get quite a few perks, they still have to pay for most of the perks that F2P and Preferred can and do purchase.

Name one perk that Subs must pay for that Freeps and Preferred must also pay for. Extra character slots doesn't count. Neither does anything purchasable via credits below 200k/350k.

Edited June 2, 2014 by Volthorne

[AbsolutGrndZero]

 

...Bad analogy is bad.

 

Actually no it's a very good analogy. If you BUY your house, then when the stucco needs repaired that's out of pocket. If you rent, then unless you damaged the stucco, any repairs are on the owner. Making subs pay for everything on top of their sub? Yeah, nobody would sub and in fact I think most subs would jump on the "EA is the worst company in the world" bandwagon.

 

As for the "must purchase" thing, we pay $15 a month, we get the unlocks as long as we do. We very much are paying for it.

Edited June 2, 2014 by AbsolutGrndZero

[Jeweledleah]

 

For that to work they'd have to remove the credit cap for Freeps and Preferred, which is never going to happen for obvious reasons.

 

 

.

 

no, they won't. if you buy your subscription block, before your old one expires? you consistently stay subscriber and subscribers have to credit limits (or at least they are so high as to be a non issue) you are not supposed to wait until after your current subscription runs out you renew it the same way as you would right now, you just have another option as to how - AND it curbs credit selling even more, as selling subscription blocks could replace buying credits for people who may still do so.

[LordArtemis]

Name one perk that Subs must pay for that Freeps and Preferred must also pay for. Extra character slots doesn't count. Neither does anything purchasable via credits below 200k/350k.

 

Well, when you place those qualifiers on the question naturally the answer is nothing....in fact all three are not required to pay anything at all.....all three can simply not play the game.

 

How about you simply make the point you were going to make. Or ask me what I meant. We can discuss the finer points, but it doesn't have to be "you're wrong, i'm right" sort of thing IMO.

[Volthorne]

Actually no it's a very good analogy. If you BUY your house, then when the stucco needs repaired that's out of pocket. If you rent, then unless you damaged the stucco, any repairs are on the owner. Making subs pay for everything on top of their sub? Yeah, nobody would sub and in fact I think most subs would jump on the "EA is the worst company in the world" bandwagon.

Fine, it's an okay analogy, but it really depends on your contract with the owner.

 

Also, almost every other F2P MMO out there makes subscribers (aka Premium accounts) pay for everything that isn't also unlocked to Freeps and Preferred by default, so.... Literally the only thing you're confirming here is that SWtoR's restrictions are indeed too harsh. If subscribers would start a riot over not being able to access a lot of basic features, why don't the Freeps and Preferred? Oh, right, they can't even post on the bloody forums!

 

As for the "must purchase" thing, we pay $15 a month, we get the unlocks as long as we do. We very much are paying for it.

Yeah, that wasn't a valid answer in the slightest. The question was: "what must Subs pay for to access IN ADDITION TO SUBSCRIBING (that part was implied but clearly it needs to be stated) that Freeps and Preferred must also pay for to access?" Zero points, do not pass "Go", do not collect $100, etc., etc.

 

no, they won't. if you buy your subscription block, before your old one expires? you consistently stay subscriber and subscribers have to credit limits (or at least they are so high as to be a non issue) you are not supposed to wait until after your current subscription runs out you renew it the same way as you would right now, you just have another option as to how - AND it curbs credit selling even more, as selling subscription blocks could replace buying credits for people who may still do so.

This implies you have subscribed for at least one month previously, and are able to make 1 million credits at the very least per month, because that's roughly how much $15 translated into last time I saw an Artifact unlock on the GTN. So to put a level number on that, you'd have to be at level 45-50 to sustain that amount of credit generation, and then inflation would occur because there's no good credit sinks (that I have found). EVE handles this problem through permanent ship destruction. SWtoR has no such solution that would be acceptable by any means.

 

Well, when you place those qualifiers on the question naturally the answer is nothing....

Exactly. There is nothing that subscribers must buy to unlock, aside from character slots which are largely (but not entirely) irrelevant to the game. Unless you like having lots of alts at once. Then it's an issue.

 

How about you simply make the point you were going to make. Or ask me what I meant. We can discuss the finer points, but it doesn't have to be "you're wrong, i'm right" sort of thing IMO.

My point was that this statement:

Yea, I have to say, though certainly subs get quite a few perks, they still have to pay for most of the perks that F2P and Preferred can and do purchase.

is false. Once you subscribe, you get all the "perks". Every single one. Hell, a lot of them aren't even "perks", they're arbitrary restrictions put in place to force Freeps and Preferred to pay. Is playing an unlimited number of Warzones a "perk"? No, that's basic PvP. Is an unlimited number of Flashpoints a "perk"? No, that's basic raiding (the same argument could be made for Ops as well).

Edited June 2, 2014 by Volthorne

[scarlet_magpie]

My nephew and his friend are only 12 and so are F2P (partly because they play loads of other games too, so hardly log in). Obviously they LOVE to be boosted along by my 55's, but it would be nice if I could trade to them gear I make for them.

 

Only one way would be fine, they can't sell or trade for profit, but people could choose to give them gifts....

 

IMHO the other restrictions do not lessen the playablitily of the game and are a lack of perks, so I think it's fine.

[Jeweledleah]

 

 

This implies you have subscribed for at least one month previously, and are able to make 1 million credits at the very least per month, because that's roughly how much $15 translated into last time I saw an Artifact unlock on the GTN. So to put a level number on that, you'd have to be at level 45-50 to sustain that amount of credit generation, and then inflation would occur because there's no good credit sinks (that I have found). EVE handles this problem through permanent ship destruction. SWtoR has no such solution that would be acceptable by any means.

 

repair costs, augment costs, the cost of moving around the mods, they are adding gambling in a few days that is a pure credit sink, etc etc. not to mention- its going to sell for a bit higher then mil, I think, not that its difficult to make at lvl 50 + and that is the whole point - its not something you would be forced to do, its something that will be another option for people

 

is false. Once you subscribe, you get all the "perks". Every single one. Hell, a lot of them aren't even "perks", they're arbitrary restrictions put in place to force Freeps and Preferred to pay. Is playing an unlimited number of Warzones a "perk"? No, that's basic PvP. Is an unlimited number of Flashpoints a "perk"? No, that's basic raiding (the same argument could be made for Ops as well).

 

are you claiming that subscription is free? because subscribers are paying a minimum of $13 a month for that continuous access. the whole thing is choice. do you want to pay a lumpsum to get unlocks and then have, ostensibly no monthly fee, and be able to play as sporadically or as regularly as you wish. or do you just want to be a set monthly fee and get all access. think of it as a phone plan. you could go for prepaid and pay on per call/text basis, or just buy a monthly unlimited plan and not worry about having to refill your minutes in the middle of the month.

[PlasmaJohn]

My nephew and his friend are only 12 and so are F2P (partly because they play loads of other games too, so hardly log in). Obviously they LOVE to be boosted along by my 55's, but it would be nice if I could trade to them gear I make for them.

I thought that Preferred could trade and all that takes is a one time $5 purchase. (FWIW I use a Visa or Amex gift card for places I don't want to have my real CC's on file).

[DarthTHC]

so basically, the person that frosts your petunias is someone like me and my friend.

 

I do subscribe when I can, but its not always possible. but that doesn't mean I stopped enjoying the game, it just means that my priorities, financially temporarily changed.

 

my friend, cannot afford subscription at all.

 

I stopped right there. Let's not confuse "cannot afford" with "choose not to pay". The vast, super-majority of people with access to a computer and internet connection capable of playing this game can afford 50 cents a day. Even a 12 year old can find a way to make $15 a month. The 1% of 1% who do own a computer and have access to an Internet connection, yet truly can find no way to scrounge $15 a month, and who waste more than a couple hours a week playing this game have their priorities seriously out of order.

Edited June 2, 2014 by DarthTHC

[DarthTHC]

My nephew and his friend are only 12 and so are F2P (partly because they play loads of other games too, so hardly log in). Obviously they LOVE to be boosted along by my 55's, but it would be nice if I could trade to them gear I make for them.

 

Only one way would be fine, they can't sell or trade for profit, but people could choose to give them gifts....

 

IMHO the other restrictions do not lessen the playablitily of the game and are a lack of perks, so I think it's fine.

 

Make them wash your car. Give them each $5 for doing it. BOOM problem solved. They start learning that money has to be earned and they can become preferred.

Edited June 2, 2014 by DarthTHC

[Jeweledleah]

I stopped right there. Let's not confuse "cannot afford" with "choose not to pay". The vast, super-majority of people with access to a computer and internet connection capable of playing this game can afford 50 cents a day. Even a 12 year old can find a way to make $15 a month. The 1% of 1% who do own a computer and have access to an Internet connection, and who waste more than a couple hours a week playing this game have their priorities seriously out of order.

 

we argued about this before.

 

if real life jobs were like video game ones, yes, your argument would stand. however - real life jobs are neither guaranteed, nor they are easy to find. and don't pay nearly as well as dailies do. overtime is not just given to you when you need to cover unforeseen expenses. and budgets can get pretty damn tight at times, and sometimes you just need that something you can relax with and get lost in, that doesn't cost you anything extra. computer and internet connection is no longer something out of the ordinary anymore. at this point - its a necessity for most people. after all... walking down the street asking for work like in the olden days >_> can only get you so far.

 

do you also dislike people who "chose" not to pay for books and movies becasue they cannot afford to buy them, and instead check them out at the library instead? oh who am I kidding, you probably do, how dare they.

 

its hilarious to me, becasue your attitude goes directly against the fact that this game is hybrid model. and it comes with ability to play it without a monthly fee. but.. I should stop now, arguing with you about this subject is pointless. and your signature remains as ironic as ever

Edited June 2, 2014 by Jeweledleah

[DarthTHC]

we argued about this before.

 

if real life jobs were like video game ones, yes, your argument would stand. however - real life jobs are neither guaranteed, nor they are easy to find. and don't pay nearly as well as dailies do. overtime is not just given to you when you need to cover unforeseen expenses. and budgets can get pretty damn tight at times, and sometimes you just need that something you can relax with and get lost in, that doesn't cost you anything extra. computer and internet connection is no longer something out of the ordinary anymore. at this point - its a necessity for most people. after all... walking down the street asking for work like in the olden days >_> can only get you so far.

 

If they are totally incapable of finding $5 but have reasonably functioning bodies and minds, send them to my place. I'll give them $20 to wash my truck. I'll even supply all the materials. They can both become preferred and grab a meal at McDonald's.

 

do you also dislike people who "chose" not to pay for books and movies becasue they cannot afford to buy them, and instead check them out at the library instead? oh who am I kidding, you probably do, how dare they.

 

Nope. That's what the library is there for. It's funded by tax dollars and/or donations so that people can educate themselves and get jobs so they can be contributing members of society instead of leeches.

 

its hilarious to me, becasue your attitude goes directly against the fact that this game is hybrid model. and it comes with ability to play it without a monthly fee. but.. I should stop now, arguing with you about this subject is pointless. and your signature remains as ironic as ever

 

Yes, the game is a hybrid model. Yes, people can play for free for as long as they like within the restrictions the developers put on it. They can lift some restrictions by paying $5 once.

 

If that's what the developers want, that's fine. However, when the leeches start complaining that they're not able to suck enough blood, that's where the problem lies. And when the leeches do things that make the game less enjoyable for paying customers - as the credit spammers are doing - then the game should be tweaked so the leeches can be a bit less annoying.

 

Back to the original topic, no, F2P is not too restrictive, especially since a lot of restrictions can be lifted with a single $5 purchase. Anyone who simply (and honestly) cannot afford to spend $5 once on a game they say the enjoy playing should be damned glad they have a computer and internet connection, plus the time, plus the generosity of developers and paying customers alike, so they can have the chance to play this great game for free... and stop complaining.

Edited June 2, 2014 by DarthTHC

[TUXs]

On topic...

 

Yes it is. My son plays quite a few MMOs, all F2P. SWTOR is the one game him and his friends avoid because it's far too restrictive. Every MMO they've played he has spent $ on at some point (minus some Korean one), but SWTOR isn't even on their list because of the F2P policy.

[Jeweledleah]

If they are totally incapable of finding $5 but have reasonably functioning bodies and minds, send them to my place. I'll give them $20 to wash my truck. I'll even supply all the materials.

 

 

 

Nope. That's what the library is there for. It's funded by tax dollars and/or donations so that people can educate themselves and get jobs so they can be contributing members of society instead of leeches.

 

 

 

Yes, the game is a hybrid model. Yes, people can play for free for as long as they like within the restrictions the developers put on it. They can lift some restrictions by paying $5 once.

 

If that's what the developers want, that's fine. However, when the leeches start complaining that they're not able to suck enough blood, that's where the problem lies. And when the leeches do things that make the game less enjoyable for paying customers - as the credit spammers are doing - then the game should be tweaked so the leeches can be a bit less annoying.

 

but one time $5 is not the same as continuous purchases of $15 a month yes? more over. exactly how would adding more purchasable (and then sellable for credits) unlocks would ruin it for the subscribers and encourage gold spammers? creating a system that allows people to bypass credit sellers in order to exchange money for real game currency - directly discourages credit sellers. the more extensive you make that system, the less worth it becasue for credit sellers to try and hock their wares. and ability to buy (and then resell on GTN) blocks of subscription time? will actualy create more subscribers.

 

or that doesn't count? each player has to pay their own, real life money, or they count as a leech? moreover. say what you will about f2p players, but at least they provide extra warm bodies, more people to play with. the fuller the population of the MMO looks, the more people tend to be actualy interested in playing it. but push f2p population away too much and ..... population shrinks, fewer people want to play and as a result - fewer people want to pay.

 

I'm not saying that f2p should get full and unrestricted access to everything. I'm a big BIG supporter of things like hide head slot and unify colors unlocks as well as crew skill and mail restriction (the part where you can mail just one rather than 8). I'm also a big supporter of section x like unlocks - unlimited access to subscribers, has to be separately purchased by someone who is not.

 

I'm saying that looking down on people who are not subscribers and thinking their playtime SHOULD be as uncomfortable as possible , it SHOULD be a stick more so than the carrot approach to their playing - is counterproductive. and sneering at preferred players especially? is just.. sad. becasue even libraries encourage you to suggest which books you would like for them to buy for their collection. even if you never EVER personally given them a dime.

 

P.S. restriction on trading items hurts everyone. its that very restriction that makes your so-called leeches? MORE annoying. yes it can be lifted with $5, but who are we really punishing here? "leeches"? or paying customers?

Edited June 2, 2014 by Jeweledleah

[Alphasgimaone]

...Bad analogy is bad.

It was certainly better conceived than that fallacy-ridden yarn about the pack of hipsters trying to score free beer.

 

Fine, it's an okay analogy, but it really depends on your contract with the owner.

It really doesn't. Property upkeep and maintenance is standard boiler plate for any rental agreement. In many states, it's even law.

 

For a lot (most) renters is the whole point of renting over owning. They get to live in a nice house without having to deal with the headaches of being a homeowner. Some people are even willing to pay higher rent than they would the monthly rate on a 30-year for a comparable house in the same neighborhood. There's a crack in the stucco? Call the landlord. Leaky roof? Call the landlord. The toilet explodes? Call the landlord. This is all quality of life stuff that people expect out of their lease. But they have deal with it (pay for it) if they own the home themselves.

 

That's what a sub is; it's a lease. You rent the game for $15 a month.

 

Likewise, some landlords who're looking to dump properties, will offer the renter the option to buy the home when the lease is up. Some will even negotiate with the lender to retroactively apply part of the lease to the mortgage.

 

This is pretty much what it means to go preferred. You get to keep some stuff and any CCs you've accumulated, but all the quality of life "maintenance" is on you now. However, you can take some of that money you save from the lower mortgage costs and fix the stucco yourself. (Or buy your quickbars.)

 

If you leased long enough, that retroactive savings (CCs.) might be enough to fix everything yourself, and you won't have to worry about it.

 

The caveat here, of course, is weekly passes. But think of those as property tax.

 

Which brings up the point you seem to have a problem with false equivalency. You complained up-thread about spending money and the $240 you've spent on other games, but wouldn't do it here blah blah blah.

 

Yet you seem to think that that $240 has a different value when you sub. It doesn't. For $240 you could sub for a year and a half. When the sub was over, you'd have accumulated more than enough CCs to buy all the unlocks, stock up on enough weekly passes to affordably maintain a critical mass of them and keep you in business for a long while, and still have enough left over for a little vanity.

 

Never mind the fact you just spent the last year and a half playing the game headache free.

 

Also, almost every other F2P MMO out there makes subscribers (aka Premium accounts) pay for everything that isn't also unlocked to Freeps and Preferred by default, so....

I don't know if this is intentional or not, but it's a blatant misrepresentation of the facts.

Edited June 2, 2014 by Alphasgimaone

[LordArtemis]

My point was that this statement: is false.

 

Ah, I see now. Well, first, all the melodrama was not necessary, since it is pretty obvious you either misunderstand what the sentence means, or you intend to change its meaning to fit your agenda, whatever that may be.

 

The statement is absolutely correct. It most certainly is not even close to "false".

 

So, to the first.....

 

Name one perk. Appearance Kiosk.

 

Now on to my statement.

Yea, I have to say, though certainly subs get quite a few perks, they still have to pay for most of the perks that F2P and Preferred can and do purchase.

 

....means exactly what it says. There are no hidden meanings, the text is plain and it's meaning is plain, But I will, for the sake of discussion, clarify if it is confusing.

 

1) Subs get quite a few perks for subscribing that F2P/Preferred do not get, no matter how much they unlock or pay for.

 

2) Subs are still required to pay money for certain perks, despite being subs. I can give examples if you wish, if this part still confuses you. The operative words in the statement are "can" and "do", not "have to".

 

3) To further clarify #2, there are perks that F2P and Preferred purchase in the game that Subs also have to pay for IF THEY WANT THEM. The automatic payment of coins for subs helps, and a person could wait quite a few months to afford to purchase items, but essentially a sub does not get those items or perks for free in most cases. All three could buy certain perks and items on the GTN when and if they come available.

 

In that statement I did not:

 

State that subs had to pay for things they needed to play

State that F2P or Preferred did not have to pay for things they needed to play.

State that subs are getting a bad deal compared to F2P/Preferred.

 

You either did not understand my statement (which I thought was pretty clear, perhaps not) or you chose to make it mean something it did not to somehow further your overall argument.

 

BTW...I am the OP. Perhaps you were not aware that I am an advocate of lessening some of the more draconian features in the F2P system. I find it rather odd that you would decide to focus your vitriol on me considering I started the topic in the first place.

 

Ready, shoot, aim and all that. Pay attention.

 

Hopefully in the future you can dispense with the drama and simply ask me what I meant if you are confused about one of my statements.

Edited June 2, 2014 by LordArtemis

[Uncle_Robo]

Just mail it to them.

 

My nephew and his friend are only 12 and so are F2P (partly because they play loads of other games too, so hardly log in). Obviously they LOVE to be boosted along by my 55's, but it would be nice if I could trade to them gear I make for them.

 

Only one way would be fine, they can't sell or trade for profit, but people could choose to give them gifts....

 

IMHO the other restrictions do not lessen the playablitily of the game and are a lack of perks, so I think it's fine.

[LordArtemis]

So, again, as the topic seemed to get of the rails with the amount of hyperbole running around....

 

I propose that there are a few elements of the F2P that actually discourage folks from becoming paying players.

 

Those restrictions and nags....namely the following....

Lack of ability to unlock legacy mail

Credit escrow message spam with sound for every single credit above the cap

Lack of ability for free and preferred players to chat among themselves

 

....seem to be the largest complaints web wide right now, and I see them as nothing more than punishment.

 

I believe all three need to be addressed.

[Uncle_Robo]

One of the few things to change I would look at, is the current f2p limits on flashpoint rolls and warzone particpation. If EA is making a killing on selling flashpoint and warzone passes, then their business model is working as intended. However, if sales of these passes are low, EA should look at lifting these limits, since these limits contribute to longer waits on flashpoint and warzone queues.

[Uncle_Robo]

Legacy mail...might be solved with the upcoming legacy storage.

Currently solved when you go preferred status.

 

Credit escrow spam with sound is useful to warn that the cap is being reached. Some players wish to spend those credits before it goes into escrow, so a warning is useful.

 

Free and preferred players are able to chat among themselves in general chat.

 

So, again, as the topic seemed to get of the rails with the amount of hyperbole running around....

 

I propose that there are a few elements of the F2P that actually discourage folks from becoming paying players.

 

Those restrictions and nags....namely the following....

Lack of ability to unlock legacy mail

Credit escrow message spam with sound for every single credit above the cap

Lack of ability for free and preferred players to chat among themselves

 

....seem to be the largest complaints web wide right now, and I see them as nothing more than punishment.

 

I believe all three need to be addressed.

[LordArtemis]

Legacy mail...might be solved with the upcoming legacy storage.

Currently solved when you go preferred status.

 

Well, that will be good news if that is the case.

 

Credit escrow spam with sound is useful to warn that the cap is being reached. Some players wish to spend those credits before it goes into escrow, so a warning is useful.

 

After the cap is reached it sounds with every single coin that is deposited. Apparently that is viewed as a nag to subscribe to the game, and many folks seem to find that rather sleazy. I'm not sure about that, but I do think it is a bit excessive. Shutting off the sound would suffice.

 

Free and preferred players are able to chat among themselves in general chat.

 

I believe they have some message restrictions, as far as having to wait to post the next message, correct? If that is so, that must be what folks are complaining about. I think open unrestricted communication between free and preferred players (NOT SUBS) is the way to go.

[Foambreaker]

The only thing I can think of to change is to remove forum privileges...

[Uncle_Robo]

Yes, well this is to limit credit sellers from spamming every second instead of just every minute.

The delay can be annoying for f2p players, but it is still manageable to hold conversations in chat.

 

I believe they have some message restrictions, as far as having to wait to post the next message, correct? If that is so, that must be what folks are complaining about. I think open unrestricted communication between free and preferred players (NOT SUBS) is the way to go.

[Uncle_Robo]

F2p players have no forum privileges, only subs can post.

Unless you mean limitations, then yes, a F2p forum might be a good idea.

 

The only thing I can think of to change is to remove forum privileges...