2.8 PTR Ship changes wave 3 (Interdiction mine nerf+more)

[Kuciwalker]

So there's no players you know of doing well/good/great with gunships anymore?

 

I know of exactly one player that both

 

1. Bothers to fly a gunship in serious matches
   
2. Is good at it
   

 

and the reason he does so is that he refuses to fly scouts anyway.

 

I agree, but I already mentioned i'm not debating the merits of the Nerf to gunships. You're focused on gunships. If all 8 enemy ships were always gunships, then I'd have to agree with you. There are usually only 2-3 gunships, leaving 5-6 other ships. A 10 second advantage on few ships, and 5 seconds on many ships, is not a huge advantage. As a gunship, that 10 seconds affects you 100% of the time. As a strike fighter, it affects me 25-33% of the time.

 

First, I wasn't directly addressing your thesis, I was reacting to points you made in service of it. You said "IF circumstances then the gunship has to survive 10 seconds longer than before" as if the consequent wasn't a virtual death sentence.

 

Second, I'll address your thesis directly: YES, even a +5s cooldown increase makes it substantially easier to land missiles. I have observed this in my strike and heard it reported from other reliable pilots who specialize in strikes.

[Verain]

And for the record, if you think strikes aren't in the meta, you're doing it wrong.

 

There's a lot of good players who want strikes to work, including me. If Tune is hounding me in his Pike when I'm on my Quarrel (and I won't normally play anything else unless the game is gonna be a roll) I have a very hard time getting any casts off, and if he catches me after I had to leave an area he can sometimes land a torp or concussion. But if he was on a battle scout, he'd be BETTER at that job. One way to look at it is this: the Pike starts a missile lock, and I have all that time to fix it. The battle scout instead uses that time to boost towards me, and THEN starts a missile lock for clusters. Both will launch missiles in about the same amount of time if unmitigated, the difference is that once the missile lock launches, the battle scout will be very close with most of his engines, while the Pike will probably be a bit further out will less.

 

Strikes are the single best bomber killer there is. There is no comparison when compared with gunships and scouts and even other bombers. Gunships are easily countered by LOS and scouts are limited by their low EHP and close range. Strikes can just pummel bombers with protons and HLCs from range.

 

I don't think it's much of an advantage. Enroute, anyone can intercept a bomber. Your best bet is ion railgun. Certainly a strike will be more than happy to land devastating hits without being in range of anything but heavy lasers, and either directional or quick charge offer reasonable solutions there. On a node, a gunship can over-under, but yes, needs support. But so does a strike! A bomber's standard rotation of floating around underneath can be modified to deal with a strike approaching from below. Simply put, at equal skill levels and on a node, a team kills a bomber. A strike can be a good part of that team, but that's it.

[Verain]

I know of exactly one player that both

 

1. Bothers to fly a gunship in serious matches
   
2. Is good at it
   

 

 

Add me to the list, and also Jen aka Gunsheep. Unless your point is exclusiveness- we'll both fly other things in serious matches, depending on what we think will help most.

 

 

 

That being said- I don't support any further nerfs to gunship survival without adjustments to offensive moves. I could get behind a world with no double missile break, as long as it isn't the only change between that world and ours.

[Verain]

You have a distinct lack of creativity friend. Never guarantee that my answer is nothing. Also you clearly haven't seen the refuel and recharge station tactics that we've developed in TDM.

 

I think his point is more that the intended general purpose role of strikes isn't really working out that well. Obviously, since the strike is meant to be general purpose, it's not going to convince anyone to say "scouts are better at dogfighting and gunships are better at range!". But the fact remains that not only is this true, it is by a pretty big difference.

 

 

I think if you wanted to balance distortion field- and the removal of the missile break is the obvious choice here- you'd want to address:

 

> Cluster missiles. These little guys are mostly annoying because they have no cooldown to speak of. If you evade an in-flight proton or even concussion, you have some time before the next lock begins. Not with clusters! They also lock on wildly quickly for the damage they do. If I had my druthers, these would never have made it to a scout frame, but it's far too late for that. If you try to fly a type 2 gunship, or a type 1 without the missile break, these things are simply getting through far too often for the amount of guaranteed hull damage that they do.

 

The adjustment wouldn't even have to be a straight nerf- it would just have to adjust how scarily consistent these things are at hounding strikes and gunships.

[Kuciwalker]

Add me to the list, and also Jen aka Gunsheep. Unless your point is exclusiveness- we'll both fly other things in serious matches, depending on what we think will help most.

 

I don't know you in-game. I've never seen you fly, etc. My observations are across three servers - primarily Jung Ma, secondarily TEH and Harbinger.

 

I'll grant, though, that I haven't actually seen any TEH or Harbinger natives that are really top-notch gunships.

[Kuciwalker]

I'll also confess that the psychology of missile locks is part of the influence here, and I may be over-estimating the threat. I don't actually run clusters on my scout, and I know a bunch of other scout pilots who also prefer rockets. Yet I don't think rockets are particularly OP.

[tunewalker]

Add me to the list, and also Jen aka Gunsheep. Unless your point is exclusiveness- we'll both fly other things in serious matches, depending on what we think will help most.

 

 

 

That being said- I don't support any further nerfs to gunship survival without adjustments to offensive moves. I could get behind a world with no double missile break, as long as it isn't the only change between that world and ours.

 

AGREED AGREED AGREED AGREED.

 

I think Barrel Roll would need to be brought down to 15 seconds with the rest though keeping the larger energy drain, that would help a little BUT I also like the thoughts on clusters.... probably could bring them up to the same cast time as the new interdiction maybe make a couple other adjusts baby steps you know.

[Verain]

I'll also confess that the psychology of missile locks is part of the influence here, and I may be over-estimating the threat. I don't actually run clusters on my scout, and I know a bunch of other scout pilots who also prefer rockets. Yet I don't think rockets are particularly OP.

 

 

Well, this isn't really about rocket pods. Obviously rocket pods are far more damage and can instantly blow up a stationary target.

 

My point is more, if I'm seeking to evade a scout with pods, I will take basically no damage from him. Every death versus a solidly played quads and pods has been the result of a very strong target switch, me being distracted, or simply being out of everything that would help me. Whereas clusters are just always getting through for damage, a little of which is ok and good, but I really feel it is too much unless you have a second missile break.

 

 

Distortion is already very solid defense against pods, also.

[Ramalina]

Gunships are the only ones that can reasonably claim to need 2 missile breaks. They're moderately squishy, need long open lanes of line of sight to function, and can't run all that well anymore.

 

Bombers can tank the missiles they fail to LOS, and the rest of the ships are nimble enough so that if they actually bother to LOS, half a missile break is plenty (meaning that you're using the cooldown for offensive purposes as often as you are for breaking missile locks). Or at least that's the case for skilled pilots. For beginners a missile break with a 2 second cooldown might not always be enough.

 

It's still not that easy to land a kill on a gunship with a heavy missile, but now they're at a state where even with 2 missile breaks, they have to react defensively if you start locking with a heavy missile. That's probably good enough for balance purposes.

 

With scouts, they're in a situation where defensive flying isn't required because they can just press cooldowns to make the missile threat go away. As opposed to strikes where you fly defensively and reserve the cooldown for cases where defensive flying isn't enough. To put it in classic MMO terms, the scouts get to stand in the red circles and keep on dpsing even though they're not tanks.

 

It's also possible that cluster missile dps should be looked at, at least with the double volley upgrade. It's a lot of damage for a spammable missile that at close ranges can be easier to use than blasters are. There are other missiles that deliver more hurt, but they actually make you work for it. I was quite fond of it as a beginner pilot considering it, "the only missile that really works," but now that I've gotten competent with the slower missiles it feels more like it gives a bit more reward than it should for the skill and effort involved in landing a shot. Not a lot, and I'm not sure it's enough to really be a problem, but it's something to think about.

Edited May 12, 2014 by Ramalina

[tommmsunb]

Gunships are the only ones that can reasonably claim to need 2 missile breaks. They're moderately squishy, need long open lanes of line of sight to function, and can't run all that well anymore.

 

Bombers can tank the missiles they fail to LOS, and the rest of the ships are nimble enough so that if they actually bother to LOS, half a missile break is plenty (meaning that you're using the cooldown for offensive purposes as often as you are for breaking missile locks). Or at least that's the case for skilled pilots. For beginners a missile break with a 2 second cooldown might not always be enough.

 

It's still not that easy to land a kill on a gunship with a heavy missile, but now they're at a state where even with 2 missile breaks, they have to react defensively if you start locking with a heavy missile. That's probably good enough for balance purposes.

 

With scouts, they're in a situation where defensive flying isn't required because they can just press cooldowns to make the missile threat go away. As opposed to strikes where you fly defensively and reserve the cooldown for cases where defensive flying isn't enough. To put it in classic MMO terms, the scouts get to stand in the red circles and keep on dpsing even though they're not tanks.

 

It's also possible that cluster missile dps should be looked at, at least with the double volley upgrade. It's a lot of damage for a spammable missile that at close ranges can be easier to use than blasters are. There are other missiles that deliver more hurt, but they actually make you work for it.

Cluster missiles have a dmg per magazine of about 18k fully upgraded with the DoT, I haven't done the math on double volley, though I don't use it because I don't like running out of ammo. Also that's wholly untrue about standing in the redcircles.

 

We can stand in the redcircles if whoevers chasing us isn't accurate, though I know if Scrab is shooting me I have ot react right away. Also distortion field is not invincibility mode anymore, and it can be negated with crew skills and sensor beacons and TT.

[Kuciwalker]

Well, this isn't really about rocket pods. Obviously rocket pods are far more damage and can instantly blow up a stationary target.

 

Rocket pods are relevant in that if rocket pods aren't OP, and rocket pods are of comparable or greater power than clusters, then clusters are not OP. Basic syllogism.

[Devrius]

Rocket pods are relevant in that if rocket pods aren't OP, and rocket pods are of comparable or greater power than clusters, then clusters are not OP. Basic syllogism.

 

Well, pods require someone manually targeting and tracking the enemy and said enemy staying more or less still while taking multiple missiles in the face that have poor tracking and accuracy.

 

Clusters though? You just need to be relatively close to the target, press, hold and release the second mouse button until the target is fried.

[Ramalina]

I was not sufficiently clear, I meant the missile based red circles as far as what scouts can choose to circumvent with cooldowns.

 

Evasion based standing in the red circles still works, but since you have to blow all your defensive cooldowns at the same time to do it, it's not an issue the way is was when chaining cooldowns was somewhat practical.

[Pilgrim_Grey]

Well, pods require someone manually targeting and tracking the enemy and said enemy staying more or less still while taking multiple missiles in the face that have poor tracking and accuracy.

 

Clusters though? You just need to be relatively close to the target, press, hold and release the second mouse button until the target is fried.

 

Yeah, I think rocket pods are pretty balanced for what they are, since they do have accuracy checks, are hard to use in a turning fight, etc.

 

Clusters... really are too easy on a variety of levels. Sure, they don't have the shield piercing of the bigger missiles, but they have a trivial load and lock time. That coupled with lame lag issues (if you've never been hit by lasers or a missile lock when you are physically past another ship, I have it happen at least once every couple matches, depending on how the server is having) make it even worse. You don't want this to go too far, otherwise clusters are pointless, but they are pretty spammable. I think I'd be okay with their lock time if they had a longer reload time, really.

[tunewalker]

Yeah, I think rocket pods are pretty balanced for what they are, since they do have accuracy checks, are hard to use in a turning fight, etc.

 

Clusters... really are too easy on a variety of levels. Sure, they don't have the shield piercing of the bigger missiles, but they have a trivial load and lock time. That coupled with lame lag issues (if you've never been hit by lasers or a missile lock when you are physically past another ship, I have it happen at least once every couple matches, depending on how the server is having) make it even worse. You don't want this to go too far, otherwise clusters are pointless, but they are pretty spammable. I think I'd be okay with their lock time if they had a longer reload time, really.

 

My solution would make them the same Lock on time as the new interdiction missile bringing it up to 1.7 when fully upgraded, maybe a 4 second reload. They are already very limited by ammo. This would be a .4 second increase to lock time and 1 second increase to reload. Thus 1.4 seconds longer then usual. They still need to be fairly easy to land. their ammo limit as well as their damage means if they werent easy to land it would be a problem...... heck increasing the reload might be unneccissary just leave it at increase lock on time of 1.7.

 

 

 

 

I also think rapid reload could be better. Have it affect mines and have it actually allow missiles to reload noticably faster (at least the long lock on time missiles) say if it was 20% instead of 8% then conc missiles would have 4.8 second reload time down from 6 (or 5.5 or something with it) and Protons and a lot of other missiles would have 9.6 a very noticible difference from 12 (11 with it currently) but of course if this was done then 2 missile breaks might be needed and then we are back to square one of Disto being the msot powerful shield type.

[Altheran]

My solution would make them the same Lock on time as the new interdiction missile bringing it up to 1.7 when fully upgraded, maybe a 4 second reload.

 

And they would have roughly the same optimum DPS than concussion while having neither the range or the innate bypass.

 

In other words, Cluster would become uninteresting when the choice is proposed along Concussion.

[Pilgrim_Grey]

And they would have roughly the same optimum DPS than concussion while having neither the range or the innate bypass.

 

In other words, Cluster would become uninteresting when the choice is proposed along Concussion.

 

That's why I was saying one or the other. You can't go too far or they're going to be unbalanced, (in a weak way) but they're just so spammable at the moment. Even if you went with a slower reload time, they're still going to be an option for Scouts or Strikes that can choose them, as they are going to be a faster, easier lock.

[tunewalker]

And they would have roughly the same optimum DPS than concussion while having neither the range or the innate bypass.

 

In other words, Cluster would become uninteresting when the choice is proposed along Concussion.

 

Same optimum dps shorter lock on times means its still easier to land, and I agree..... Honestly I dont think anything really needs be done about clusters because they dont have much ammo any way and the ones most vulnerable to them.... actually mostly have them so? I dont know.... All i know is as long as DF has a missile break and other shields dont those other shields will not be taken.

 

Also as long as it has it all ships that rely on longer missile locks for burst damage will be inherently weaker then those that dont. and as long as both those that dont require those long locks and are able to break those locks with 2 breaks are on the same ship those ships will experience greater strength then all other ships.

 

Honestly all they might have to do is put in +10% while active instead of the missile break and remove the -20% shields from it you wouldnt need to change clusters at all at that point, but DF might still be to strong at that point.

 

Just like Quick charge are still to weak though.

[Verain]

Rocket pods are relevant in that if rocket pods aren't OP, and rocket pods are of comparable or greater power than clusters, then clusters are not OP. Basic syllogism.

 

Which makes them not relevant.

 

Rocket pods are more damage versus a stationary target (tons of damage, in fact). But unlike clusters, they cannot inevitably strike down the slower ships with basically no recourse in the same manner that clusters can. Just because rocket pods are insane burst and can flat out end a ship caught unawares doesn't mean that an entirely different option that has entirely different ramifications is ok.

 

 

My problem with clusters is basically that they are largely impossible to evade (for the non scouts). The only ship that can pretty much be ok with them is a charged plating build, and usually that build is shredded by the other half of the cluster missile's build. Certainly they are too effective on gunships to consider removing the disto missile break without modification.

 

 

Note I said modification: you could change them such that they are more like other missiles, nerfing them in the situations they would be overperforming under a single missile break system.

Edited May 13, 2014 by Verain

[JeepWithGuy]

I know of exactly one player that both

 

1. Bothers to fly a gunship in serious matches
   
2. Is good at it
   

 

and the reason he does so is that he refuses to fly scouts anyway.

I'd add Leggo to this list as well. He does just really well in his gunship in 'serious' games, and the same with his scout in 'non-serious' games.

 

Regardless, if you know of someone that is making it work, maybe it's kind of an L2P issue for you? It's not like you can get custom gunships. Your mastered t1 has the same stats as everyone else's.

 

If it's not worth the effort for you, that's different than not possible.

Second, I'll address your thesis directly: YES, even a +5s cooldown increase makes it substantially easier to land missiles. I have observed this in my strike and heard it reported from other reliable pilots who specialize in strikes.

This +5 seconds isn't a magical moment where a ship is held perfectly still. Enemies are free to continue to juke, boost, LoS, etc during that 5 seconds. Enemies get no easier to hit in that 5 seconds than they were in the previous 10. You could argue they run out of engine power, but I'd argue they just had 10 seconds to make it an asteroid/debris/satellite/whatever to LoS.

 

Are you getting significantly more kills per game because of this 'Nerf'? If so, how much did it increase your kills per game? How much more often are you dying? The Nerf affects strikes engine breaks as well. You can't just claim +5 seconds on the offensive end, and not account for your own +5 seconds on the defensive.

Edited May 13, 2014 by JeepWithGuy

[WiseStranger]

The big change here is that Interdiction mines have three changes:

 

1- Will no longer pierce shields.

2- Damage increased from 330 to 520.

3- Final tier (right) decreased from 30% boost to 20% boost

 

 

This is a really big deal- it changes the normal pair of mines from on shotting a scout to dealing hull damage (seismic) and dealing 520 shield damage (assuming you have shields). The powerful snare and turnsnare remain unchanged.

 

There are OTHER changes:

 

1- It appears to this reader that Fortress shield is losing the -0.3 shield strength (the "your shields are passively 70% as strong as they should be"). This is a pretty nice change.

2- Fortress shield is switching from +100% shield during fortress mode to +130% mode during fortress.

 

This is a rather decent set of buffs to what is currently the worst component in the game. I don't exactly think this will make anyone want to hold still for even a couple seconds- but on live, after talents, crew and large reactor, a ship running around with fortress shield on but not active has:

 

70% base + 20% reactor +10% crew = 100% of base (additive)

And you can turn the shield on for:

70% base + 20% reactor +10% crew + 100% fortress + 20% talent = 220%

 

And post changes:

 

100% base + 20% reactor + 10% crew = 130% of base

And you can turn on the shield for:

100% base + 20% reactor + 10% crew + 130% fortress + 20% talent = 280%

 

I don't know if I'll recommend or run this, but I know that doing so will actually give you a defensive bonus, whereas on live this shield is a huge trap.

 

I am very excited for this change

 

 

 

Another change, this one to feedback shield:

Feedback shield will no longer trigger on railguns.

 

I really don't get what the story here is, or why this shield needs to be nerfed. Feedback shield is a default component, and it's already bad. I will say that the ability to use it as a naked ship when duelling a geared ship (something I've been doing a bit) has been one of the few funny uses of it. It just seems odd to see it nerfed.

 

 

 

 

Interdiction missile had a description added, and the new imperial bomber had part of the descriptive text cleared about how it is bad at dogfighting, keeping the rest of it.

 

1. I don't think it's a bad thing that interdiction mines will be changed to normal damage instead of straight hull damage. They have a very strong debuff attached to them so they will have use even after the nerf.

 

2. Changes to fortress shield are irrelevant. Anytime I see a gunship using it, I think of a free kill, because they have only one missile break on 20 sec CD with insane engine power cost. Fortress shield will not save anyone from being demolished as you have to remain stationary and everyone and their mother-in-law has a weapon with shield bypass doing ~1k damage/second. Some ships are capable of such high burst damage, they won't even notice Fortress Shield. If it was giving something like 5k shield per arc and had -116% shield bypass modifier, then it would be worthwhile to take as it would live up to the name Fortress.

 

3. Changes to Feedback Shield are long overdue correction of a bug. Read the description. It should work only on primary weapons. Even though gunship uses railguns as their main weapon, they are not "primary weapons" as per game classification. I think railguns trigger feedback shield because railguns use blaster power pool. But I'm surprised that they didn't address the issue where missiles trigger the effect as well, or effects that deal direct hull damage (sabotage probe).

In any case... this change changes nothing. Feedback shields were of marginal use and will remain so. If only they changed them to last for more than one shot... for instance each hit to shields damages attacker for X damage. Depending on the damage it might call for reduction in up-time.

[Kuciwalker]

I'd add Leggo to this list as well. He does just really well in his gunship in 'serious' games, and the same with his scout in 'non-serious' games.

 

Leggo was my "exactly one".

 

Regardless, if you know of someone that is making it work, maybe it's kind of an L2P issue for you?

 

1. derp
   
2. No, but this may be a "learn to read" issue for you. I'll let you figure it out for yourself.
   

 

This +5 seconds isn't a magical moment where a ship is held perfectly still. Enemies are free to continue to juke, boost, LoS, etc during that 5 seconds. Enemies get no easier to hit in that 5 seconds than they were in the previous 10. You could argue they run out of engine power, but I'd argue they just had 10 seconds to make it an asteroid/debris/satellite/whatever to LoS.

 

By this logic all missile breaks are irrelevant. Except we observe that missile breaks are extremely powerful and valued. The contrapositve of that is that the lack of a missile break is painful.

Edited May 13, 2014 by Kuciwalker

[JeepWithGuy]

1. derp
   
2. No, but this may be a "learn to read" issue for you. I'll let you figure it out for yourself.
   

You've said there's one twice now. So unless Leggo was bio-engineered at birth to fly gunships in GSF, or is taking gunship piloting enhancer pills, or has some other advantage that doesn't exist in the natural universe, then someone can replicate his success with enough time and effort. Or with one of the aforementioned options.

By this logic all missile breaks are irrelevant. Except we observe that missile breaks are extremely powerful and valued. The contrapositve of that is that the lack of a missile break is painful.

Your missile break is irrelevant when it's on cool down. The +5 seconds we're talking about is the additional time on cool down since the nerf.

Edited May 13, 2014 by JeepWithGuy

[Kuciwalker]

You've said there's one twice now. So unless Leggo was bio-engineered at birth to fly gunships in GSF, or is taking gunship piloting enhancer pills, or has some other advantage that doesn't exist in the natural universe, then someone can replicate his success with enough time and effort. Or with one of the aforementioned options.

 

**** this is not complicated. Leggo is the only person I know who both

 

1. Bothers to fly a gunship in serious matches
   
2. Is good at it
   

 

He's not the only person who flies gunships in serious matches, nor is he the only person good at flying gunships (even in serious matches). He's just the only person who does both of those things.

 

I don't do #1 because it's suboptimal (you will get shut down a lot) and not very fun (you will spend more time running than shooting). If I'm in a real match I fly my Flashfire 99% of the time (or occasionally my bomber in domination).

[JeepWithGuy]

**** this is not complicated. Leggo...

You keep going back to gunships. I've said twice i'm not talking about gunships. Complications happens in situations like these.