Easing the learning curve : Ace Campaign

[tommmsunb]

So, I think we can all agree without a shadow of a doubt that SWTOR:Galactic Starfighter has a really high learning curve highlighted by minimum to no skill-based matchmaking. It's a game that's very hard to feel compelled to get better at because it can feel like passing over an insurmountable obstacle.

A large part of this feeling can be attributed to 4 simple elements.

- Ignorance of game mechanics (i.e. not knowing of spawn mechanics.)

- Role model negativity. (i.e. Very strong players who are negative towards them for being plebe 2-shippers.)

- Feeling thrown to the wolves by the game, you're given a barebones at best tutorial, which most skip because it is not obvious that its even there. (I never even knew it was there until after I had my first starfighter record.)and suddenly you're playing with people who have played a significantly higher amount of games.

- Feeling unsure where to use requisition, there are so many possible builds that it can feel daunting to a new player. (Similar to in league of legends and dota 2 where people feel overwhelmed by the items.) And they don't want to mess up because that's time wasted if they do.

 

So, what I propose, and hope for community involvement in the development of, is a campaign through which we, train players, with one-on-one lessons, one-on-a-few lessons and maybe even focus groups helping one person out. Using tools such as teamviewer and OBS (streaming to twitch.) to be able to look at an individuals play and tell them concretely what they should do to improve, and thought processes that will put them on the right track. Currently when somebody asks "What's the best weapon." in chat I often see people say "BLCs" but they never explain why you use them and why you shouldn't use them. Personally I think they're far too situational to be useful for my play-style. But I recognize that others require them for their own play-styles.

 

I recognize that this is a lot of effort and a commitment that a good number of "Aces" and new pilots won't want to undertake, and I understand that, but what I also understand is that those that do put in the time and do put in the effort will come away from it much more satisfied than they would otherwise if they're successful.

 

I also recognize that the new pilots who would undertake this commitment will most certainly come-away from this as "Aces." I remember back when GSF first came out and on Jung Ma the Pubs were dominating the imps drastically, so I switched and I made friends with a large guild and made a similar offer, only a few stepped forward but those that did are without a doubt in my mind worthy of the ace title. And for those that know me, you know that's not a title I bestow easily.

 

I would ask that anybody who is willing to help me, step forward and we could coordinate over voice-chat how we're going to go about this. Anybody who's interested in learning, send me a PM on the forums or a mail in-game to Tomeateeje (The Harbinger, pub), Tomeateaje (Jung Ma, Pub), Tomeeteeje(Jung Ma Imp), Nimaru (Ebon Hawk imp.) and Friendlygurl (Ebon Hawk pub), I main a scout and dabble in T1 strikes myself.

Edited May 5, 2014 by tommmsunb

[SammyGStatus]

If GSF were the Matrix, after reading this post, I'd definitely take the blue pill.

 

This is a very good idea. It's also one of the few ways to actually see if education can be effective, assuming the people giving the instruction aren't d*cks (when it comes to teaching. Being a dick when you're not in a teaching position is fine ). Definitely would sign up to help (As Aimbot / Renegade-One on TEH pub side / if we need imp teachers I'll put my name down on that toon too) teach a little GS We'd need to coordinate a date to have sign up cutoffs be (either on the forums or through in-game interest / advertising), and from the amount of people that sign up for something like this, decide if one on ones or having a "Squad leader" group with 3 new players seeking instruction.

 

** Please note that we talked about this last night in TS before Tom posted, and we want to make sure this isn't seen as an ego thing. This is something that we feel can be done to help get players better, and potentially increase the amount of GSF players in the current pool. Bottom line - we want people to get better since the matchmaking mechanics are failing the community and the only way that we can help the new players effectively is to do something like this.

Edited May 5, 2014 by SammyGStatus

[Ryuku-sama]

I'ld definately participate... both as student and teacher I'm no ace but I still hope I can make you, Rumina, Swansea, Tsuku and Satele run for their kill

Who know? I may learn something useful or help people learn something useful

 

Ama'lä (imp TEH), Aa'ri (pub TEH), Suz'aku (pub Jung'ma/deleted), Yaiba (pub Jung'ma)

[TrinityLyre]

I already do what I can to help on The Bastion and GSF Forum, as well as invite new(er) players on to our Mumble, answer questions in-game and provide as much insight as possible so that newer players can get better. I think it's because of the great amount of support (and friendliness) from veterans on The Bastion that our server has great GSF participation. I want this game to last a while, but even I'm skeptical with the recent "we're going back on our original release schedule/roadmap" post.

 

Unfortunately, some players just don't want that help or for whatever reason choose not to seek out that help (and would instead prefer to get frustrated or harbor resentment towards veteran players tearing them apart in matches). I will end this with: I am most certainly willing to help and listen/speak about it over voice comms, but I'd love to see more participation from all the self-proclaimed aces. Drop the PvP attitude and be willing to help others; you'll see a lot more involvement on each server.

Edited May 5, 2014 by TrinityLyre

[tommmsunb]

Drop the PvP attitude and be willing to help others; you'll see a lot more involvement on each server.

I think this is the most important thing people can do. And I'm happy to see your personal involvement, its a great step in the right direction, and the purpose of this thread is to create more people like you.

[SammyGStatus]

I already do what I can to help on The Bastion and GSF Forums, as well as invite new(er) players on to our Mumble, answer questions in-game and provide as much insight as possible so that newer players can get better. I think it's because of the great amount of support (and friendliness) from veterans on The Bastion that our server has great GSF participation. I want this game to last a while, but even I'm skeptical with the recent "we're going back on our original release schedule/roadmap" post.

 

Unfortunately, some players just don't want that help or for whatever reason choose not to seek out that help (and would instead prefer to get frustrated or harbor resentment towards veteran players tearing them apart in matches). I will end this with: I am most certainly willing to help and listen/speak about it over voice comms, but I'd love to see more participation from all the self-proclaimed aces. Drop the PvP attitude and be willing to help others; you'll see a lot more involvement on each server.

 

We do that too, and while TEH is fine, the populations from the servers that don't have a lot of participation are still suffering / aren't being given the same shake. There are some players who're are absolutely vicious in terms of lowering someone's self esteem. We need to find more ways to not only increase new GSFers skills, but to have them actually feel like there is a pleasant and helpful community. Similar to identifying with a brand - if you felt part of a GSF community, you'd be more apt to return. It's a good thing that others feel as we do and want to see something done about the slaughterhouse matches we see. Short of not playing with our friends, this seems to be the best way to actually inform people seeking help and advice

Edited May 5, 2014 by SammyGStatus

[DamascusAdontise]

The biggest issue IMO is that the people who need the most help, refuse to seek it. Of all the good new player stuff on these forums, its read mainly by veterans (who have little to no use for it)

 

I could see this working, it did wonders on Bastion (players organizing / training / answering questions) the community here is pretty healthy, if not often stacked one way or another.

 

This would require people to do something besides the quick and easy thing though, which is dicey at best (people are lazy) I for one would be willing to do this, so sign me up. The only issue is that my playtime is at off hours and often short, but id definitely be up for flying with new people and answering questions etc.

 

I think players seeking help that own microphones should use voicechat. Its just superior for this sort of thing. If they dont have one, oh well... but for those that do it would be nice.

 

(You can get in contact with me for scheduling / questions: in game on Bastion imperial side: Pincer or Republic: Notpincer (not here much honestly) also on G+ @ Pincer.bastion or gmail by the same name.)

Edited May 7, 2014 by DamascusAdontise

[tommmsunb]

The biggest issue IMO is that the people who need the most help, refuse to seek it. Of all the good new player stuff on these forums, its read mainly by veterans (who have little to no use for it)

 

I could see this working, it did wonders on Bastion (players organizing / training / answering questions) the community here is pretty healthy, if not often stacked one way or another.

 

This would require people to do something besides the quick and easy thing though, which is dicey at best (people are lazy) I for one would be willing to do this, so sign me up. The only issue is that my playtime is at off hours and often short, but id definitely be up for flying with new people and answering questions etc.

 

I would say that as a requirement, the trainee player should HAVE to get VOIP. It's so much easier to talk about things, and actually make some headway into understanding through voice.

 

I'm going to agree, VOIP is necessary and pretty much a requirement.

[DamascusAdontise]

Ill go this route with it :

 

Have a mic?

 

If yes, go get (insert chat proggy here)

 

if no, then oh well we can text chat + get a mic - they are cheap now =) places like wal mart or target they can run 10 dollars or less (well not the best mic, but something is better than nothing right?)

Edited May 6, 2014 by DamascusAdontise

[Sidenti]

For those that don't have voice (the missus prefers I not use the feature and I prefer she not get pissy), I wouldn't mind helping to organize some kind of flight night where a few people and I group with new/developing pilots to give them tips and help get them oriented. Maybe even shred some shields to get 'em some kills.

[Twoopah]

/Shudders at the thought of a fleet of Pincer's disciples.

 

Good post OP.

 

/signed

[Marstrike]

Before i get into my reply i just want to point something out OP. I feel you either need to increase your original post to "5 points" or change the third point to reflect 'gear gap'. Whether some of the "aces" out their want to pretend this isn't such a big deal or not the truth is that, it is. I myself was late to the party with GSF but decided to stick it out. However, not without getting very frustrated many times. Don't get me wrong i have no issue with gear gaps as a whole (i actually dislike bolster in end game ground pvp).

 

I wish people would realize why some of the issues exist. Complaining about the fact that no one plays GSF on the forums or in general chat one minute only to form a pre-made, jump into a game, 3 cap, scatter mines everywhere and proceed to farm stock scouts the next. I'm not saying anyone in this thread does that but we all know it does happen. In the end i feel anyone who would consider themselves a "casual" player simply wouldn't continue to take the beating in order to advance. No doubt people will try and discredit this but anyone being realistic knows this is the case. Gear is a huge factor

 

Now, this leads me onto my main point in relation to the whole training thing. I feel that these issues could be solved with a PvE element added to GSF. Similiar to how the ground game training came from the "leveling game". The PvE campaign would not only serve as a hands-on tutorial but could also provide daily/weekly rewards which would help ship development past being farmed. Although this would take some work in bioware's part the AI would not have to be anything spectacular, i mean look at the x-wing and TIE fighter series, those games are still fun...i think it's more the immersion and with the STAR WARS brand that shouldn't be too hard. This could also be a great avenue for guild/group content (imagine heroics or flashpoints). For instance guild members could launch missions from the upcoming guild ships.

 

I'm a big fan of GSF and i feel that bioware did a great job (they could take the GSF code and re-skin it with f-22's, call it ace combat 234 and charge RRP for it). However, i think we are all in agreement that either the potential and/or general player exposure could improve. I feel PvE is the answer.

[Marstrike]

INB4: "an ace could jump into a stock scout and still own"

 

^ I am aware of this and yes that may be the case. However they have the experience and time served. The gear gap coupled with being "fresh out of the box" creates a very large disadvantage, one that (like my OP said) is probably putting a lot of players clean off of GSF.

 

INB4: "we all started at the bottom and worked our way up"

 

^ This is not quite the case, a lot of the hardcore or "aces" have been playing from a time when 100% of the GSF community had 2 stock ships. The gear and skill gap is continuously increasing at the expense of the player base or rather potential player base.

 

I do not wish to come across as a whiner etc i just wish to point out what i feel is the main issue in regards to population. If players had the opportunity to beat on some pixels while gaining not only training but rewards they would eventually find their way into your crosshairs.

 

P.S sorry for the double post

[Kuciwalker]

To be fair, some of us were owning from day 1

[Marstrike]

To be fair, some of us were owning from day 1

 

Ye that's skill gap. Day 1 there was no gear gap.

 

Add those two elements together and multiply them several times to find that people's "Day 1" now will probably be completely different. Also, pretty much by no fault of their own.

[Sidenti]

Ye that's skill gap. Day 1 there was no gear gap.

 

Add those two elements together and multiply them several times to find that people's "Day 1" now will probably be completely different. Also, pretty much by no fault of their own.

 

As much as I find the upgrade gap deplorable, there's no viable, consistent method available to us players to sort out the mastered vessels from the stock ones. (Believe me, I tried. I wanted to start a stock-only league but couldn't solve the verification issue.)

 

I imagine that Bioware will do a ranked variant of GSF when/if the pop reaches a point that a split can be sustained and have two healthy GSF competition pools, but that's probably the compromise that will have to be accepted in regard to a PvE mode for GSF. I'm not even a hardcore coder and I can imagine the programming nightmare that would be. You'd essentially be doing AI for 15-23 other ships.

 

It's REALLY hard to get that many AI ships to work together competently and with variance.

 

Given that, I think the original poster's ideas are more viable in the current environment. Plus, to be perfectly frank, I think it's past time a few of us gave back to the GSF community. (Many of them have. Some, like me, can and should do more.) -bp

[Sidenti]

We should also make more of an effort to self-police pilots who pull crap like this against obviously lesser experience and/or talent. (EDIT: Please note that the poster of the screengrab isn't necessarily the individual who farmed the newbs. Matter of fact, I'm pretty sure it isn't.) Edited May 6, 2014 by Sidenti

[Kuciwalker]

I'm not even a hardcore coder and I can imagine the programming nightmare that would be. You'd essentially be doing AI for 15-23 other ships.

 

It's REALLY hard to get that many AI ships to work together competently and with variance.

 

Those are false goals. The AI ships don't have to "work together" nor be "competent". Space fighter AI is a solved problem - AIs sufficient for engaging gameplay have existed for something like 30 years.

[Sidenti]

Those are false goals. The AI ships don't have to "work together" nor be "competent". Space fighter AI is a solved problem - AIs sufficient for engaging gameplay have existed for something like 30 years.

 

If you want turrets that just sit there we already have that in the tutorial. Plus some neat skilled flying practice areas.

 

Also, kindly note that I didn't say it was impossible. I said it'd be a PITA for a group already hard at work on rolling out the feature itself. Remember: We haven't seen all the ships and maps yet.

 

Seems kinda "cart-before-the-horse" to implement an AI feature before the full facet's in place and battle-tested, but that's just my two. -bp

[Kuciwalker]

If you want turrets that just sit there we already have that in the tutorial. Plus some neat skilled flying practice areas.

 

You can do a lot better than turrets without a big investment of effort. Seriously, every single claim of "this is sooooo hard" is disproven by the fact that we've been making space fighter games for decades.

[Marstrike]

lol i haven't seen a score like that before.

 

Also, i'm not quite sure where your pulling the AI numbers from (15-24). Compared to the general ground pack's AI yes it would be more complex (and fresh code which is probably the main issue) but no where near complex enough for bioware to dismiss it, especially if they were to brainstorm it's immediate and future potential.

 

In all honesty and being as realistic as possible adding something like this is not "wall of crazy" and the coding would be easier than say cross server instance queue's...which, if things keep going this way is what the GSF community will be asking for before long due to population issues.

 

All enemy AI regardless of ship skins could work on basic waypoints like:

 

All fighters/scouts: fly on pre-determined waypoints / fly towards player after X ammount of range / fire at player at X ammount of range for X ammount of seconds

All bombers: fly on pre-determined waypoints / drop mine every X ammount of seconds

All Gunships: stationary, fire at player at X ammount of range, every X ammount of seconds

 

If you play any arcade style "flying" game from yesterday right back to the late 80's etc you will notice that not only is the AI very simple but it's also hardly changed. What i mean to say is that AI has never been the strong point and doesn't need to be. GSF will get greater exposure and thus population, EA / Bioware will be able to market and profit from it and hardcore pilot's will have more competition, better competition and at the end of the day fun.

 

Also, i didn't mean these posts to take away anything from what you guys are trying to achieve here and i should of mentioned this at the start. I think it is a great idea and i'm glad that people are actually trying to help other's out there as opposed to just pre-made farming all day and sticking "ace" in their sig.

[Marstrike]

Those are false goals. The AI ships don't have to "work together" nor be "competent". Space fighter AI is a solved problem - AIs sufficient for engaging gameplay have existed for something like 30 years.

 

this is essentially what i was trying to say in my post. Was typing it during your reply so didn't see So yes, realistically its not that hard.

 

I'm all for being realistic and a lot of the requests bioware receive are "way out there" or simply cannot be done at this time etc. However, this i feel is obtainable and all too often we give them the excuse by dismissing it ourselves as a community.

 

I do agree with the "cart before the horse" thing but it was said by Eric Musco recently that they are happy and "GSF is in a good place". Extra ships, ship roles and maps are obviously essential but the population really does need to increase or in the end, they are simply wasting their own time.

[tommmsunb]

lol i haven't seen a score like that before.

 

Yeah, I'm sorry but that's just what every single match kuciwalker and I have been doing has been like. The most extreme example being this one http://i.imgur.com/L3o3yS5.jpg (I'm the poster.) It's consistent with most servers we've gone to, we had a great time playing on the harbinger last night and honestly that was the first challenge we've had in gsf since january. And even in january it was mainly us playing against each other.

 

I'd also like to dispute this pre-made comment. We're not grouped together because we're good. We're grouped together because we noticed each other as we were rising and flew together in TS/mumble etc. and became friends. We don't just farm new players because we want to, we do because they quite literally throw themselves at us guns blaring targetting primarily us and missing all objectives in doing so.

 

The weirdest thing people will do, is attack me repeatedly, and come over and tell me I was spawn-killing, when really, they're just attacking me from further and further away in gunships trying to lead me to their spawn so i'll kill myself on their capital ship.

[Lendul]

 

The weirdest thing people will do, is attack me repeatedly, and come over and tell me I was spawn-killing, when really, they're just attacking me from further and further away in gunships trying to lead me to their spawn so i'll kill myself on their capital ship.

The thing about that though. Once the game is out of hand you do not have to chase. You can sit on a Sat and let them come to you. If it's a three cap you can even call for your team to abandon one Sat and let them take it.

[tommmsunb]

The thing about that though. Once the game is out of hand you do not have to chase. You can sit on a Sat and let them come to you. If it's a three cap you can even call for your team to abandon one Sat and let them take it.

 

You'd think so, but I usually have enough people trying to kill me that if I burned my engine to get back to a node I'd die when I get there. Believe me I try to do it when it's happening.