Understanding Canon

[JediMasterAlex]

The only change is that future works are now canon, and not beholden to the EU. But that doesn't change the fact that canon can and always has been able to overwrite the EU whenever it wants, now the club is just bigger.

 

Basically its just TCW policy being made broad.

 

EDIT: But anyway this debate is pointless, as long as we agree on the facts of the system your free to believe that the EU is going drastically change in the future, but I foresee just as few retcons as TCW committed.

 

...

I think we've finally reached a point where you haven't actually understood the point. We all know and acknowledge that EU material could be overwritten...we've said that many times.

 

What HAS changed is how the Star Wars Universe has to treat the EU events. DarthDymond's post wasn't about contradiciton, it was about how material within Star Wars had to relate to each other.

 

Again, this is not about retcons...it's about whether the EU material happened or not...

[Beniboybling]

Tales of the Jedi absolutely had "power" over Crucible, and Crucible was going to have "power" over Sword of the Jedi.

Tales of the Jedi does not have "power" over A New Dawn.

 

That is the change.

 

Just because the old EU didn't have power over the Movies or Clone Wars does not mean it was powerless.

Yes that's what I said. If you think that's a big change then fine, I do not.

 

EDIT: Nothing in the Rise of the Empire era had power over TCW, and yet the Rise of the Empire era is intact. They incorporated elements of the EU in and found a happy medium, these new books can do exactly the same thing.

...

I think we've finally reached a point where you haven't actually understood the point.

It seems you haven't understood my point either. Semantics confuses everything. Edited April 27, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Sanguiluna]

I appreciate the effort made here to try to define the parameters and clear up ambiguity in a discussion.

 

That said, call it "Canon" or call it "Continuity" but the fact is that there has been a significant shift in what new Star Wars novels, comics and games are going to be required to treat as having "actually happened" for purposes of their back-story.

 

When Crucible came out last year, it treated (and was required to treat) everything from the EU (that hadn't been directly contradicted) as if it actually happened, including as far back as Naga Sadow's Sith Empire.

 

Crucible was not able to treat the Great Hyperspace War as something that "might have happened" any more than it could say that about the Death Star being destroyed; going in, Crucible had to treat both those events as having actually happened. The same was true of ever other novel and comic that came out since Tales of the Jedi was published.

 

Going forward, future novels and comics will not be required to treat the Great Hyperspace War as something that actually happened. So whether you want to call that a change in Continuity or a change in Canon or go ahead and call it "shifting fact from fiction" if you really want, either way the rules have changed significantly for the novels and comics.

 

This is a cynical way of looking at it. Just because alot of events and ideas from the old EU aren't currently part of the new One True Canon doesn't mean that it won't eventually become part of it. I think another bonus of this canon overhaul is that if Lucasfilm decides to eventually revisit stuff from the Legends collection and elevate it to Canon, they now have a chance to clean things up and make them more coherent. Because let's face it, "coherent" is one word that no objective, unbiased observer of the EU will ever call it.

 

For example, look at all the Clone Wars material. To be quite frank, with all the comics, novels, games, and the cartoon miniseries, the Clone Wars EU is one giant clusterf**k. Relegating the whole thing into Legend status for now gives Lucasfilm the opportunity to look over all the material and organize it into a coherent narrative using the prequel films and the Clone Wars show as the anchors, so that they can confidently say "Okay, we've managed to sift through all this jumble, and we now have a definitive timeline of the entire Clone War era, from the Battle of Geonosis to the Mustafar Massacre. Enjoy!"

 

They can also do the same for the Galactic Civil War, which is even worse of a clusterf**k than the Clone Wars, since it has even more material to deal with, from novels, to games, to the abundance of comics in that era starting from the original Marvel series, not to mention all the stuff from the West End RPG. I imagine that'll take them a good while to sift through all that chaos.

[Timarick]

But it is degraded. It has been demoted from part of the continuity to maybe part of the new continuity. And you can believe in the Legends if you want to, but I'm more concerned with how Lucasfilm actually classifies them.

 

I also don't think you have any evidence for your claim that "what they are really doing here is incorporating the EU into canon, not discarding it in favour of a new universe," because the main evidence that we now have points in the exact opposite direction, since they are deleting the post-rotj material, which makes up a majority of the EU.

 

It was NEVER part of the continuity. A continuity to be sure, but never THE continuity. Up until now, THE continuity was the movies and the Clone Wars because this was George Lucas' company and HE had final say on what was canon and what was not. Yes he flip flopped on the EU a LOT during his tenure, but in his view, movies and tv were canon and NOTHING ELSE. The rest was also "MAYBE" canon.

 

You are reading into the side of taking this too seriously that "NU!! EVERYTHING IS CANON! IT'S LICENSED!!!" When it really wasn't. Was it cool to have more stories, characters, and events? **** yes! My favourite Star Wars character is Mara Jade for example and I could list a 40 page essay as to how she is such a great character for hundreds of reasons as well as give insight as to why fans might dislike her or write her off as a "Mary Sue." But the fact is while I personally put all the EU as part of my head-canon, deep down, that's all it was: Head-canon. The ACTUAL canon up until now was defined by the guy who made the damn thing: George Lucas. And in HIS mind, what HE worked on is canon and NOTHING ELSE.

 

So really you're acting like an idiot to think a simple name change can carry SOOOO many connotations as to what it means for the EU, when the only REAL difference between C-Canon continuity and "Legends" is a freaking name change! GAH!

[Arilou_skiff]

It was NEVER part of the continuity. A continuity to be sure, but never THE continuity. Up until now, THE continuity was the movies and the Clone Wars because this was George Lucas' company and HE had final say on what was canon and what was not. Yes he flip flopped on the EU a LOT during his tenure, but in his view, movies and tv were canon and NOTHING ELSE. The rest was also "MAYBE" canon.

 

You are reading into the side of taking this too seriously that "NU!! EVERYTHING IS CANON! IT'S LICENSED!!!" When it really wasn't. Was it cool to have more stories, characters, and events? **** yes! My favourite Star Wars character is Mara Jade for example and I could list a 40 page essay as to how she is such a great character for hundreds of reasons as well as give insight as to why fans might dislike her or write her off as a "Mary Sue." But the fact is while I personally put all the EU as part of my head-canon, deep down, that's all it was: Head-canon. The ACTUAL canon up until now was defined by the guy who made the damn thing: George Lucas. And in HIS mind, what HE worked on is canon and NOTHING ELSE.

 

So really you're acting like an idiot to think a simple name change can carry SOOOO many connotations as to what it means for the EU, when the only REAL difference between C-Canon continuity and "Legends" is a freaking name change! GAH!

 

Again, as I mentioned, that's not really true. For starters, any storyline started post-ROTJ is gone now. It's not going to be continued. (they might turn out to make something similar, but the actual story that was, (and no matter how bad it was, some people obviously liked it) is now ended.

[JediMasterAlex]

So really you're acting like an idiot to think a simple name change can carry SOOOO many connotations as to what it means for the EU, when the only REAL difference between C-Canon continuity and "Legends" is a freaking name change! GAH!

 

Apparently there's no reasoning with you. Please enlighten yourself by reading all of the threads on this issue. After that, if you still don't think that there is a significant difference, then I don't know what to tell you. I guess self-deception isn't a terrible thing if it makes you feel better.

[marcelo_sdk]

I respect all opinions, but much of this isn't a matter of opinion, it's just based on observations. What they said about how they will treat Legends, it's the same thing they already said about EU, with different words perhaps.

 

What really changed is that, from now on, all new material that would be labeled as EU (books, comics, games) will now be as canon as the movies.

 

Most people that thinks the Legends are now N-canon uses the argument that, from now on, just what Lucas thinks and approves for the saga is valid. Well, they didn't cancelled TOR, and we know Lucas planned to put Revan"s ghost on TCW, so that makes the Old Republic Era canon? He participated on the story-writing for TFU, does that make it canon? He used Coruscant, a name taken from Thrawn Trilogy, does that make it canon? Not saying it does, nor it doesn't, just something to people think about.

[JediMasterAlex]

I respect all opinions, but much of this isn't a matter of opinion, it's just based on observations. What they said about how they will treat Legends, it's the same thing they already said about EU, with different words perhaps.

 

What really changed is that, from now on, all new material that would be labeled as EU (books, comics, games) will now be as canon as the movies.

 

Most people that thinks the Legends are now N-canon uses the argument that, from now on, just what Lucas thinks and approves for the saga is valid. Well, they didn't cancelled TOR, and we know Lucas planned to put Revan"s ghost on TCW, so that makes the Old Republic Era canon? He participated on the story-writing for TFU, does that make it canon? He used Coruscant, a name taken from Thrawn Trilogy, does that make it canon? Not saying it does, nor it doesn't, just something to people think about.

 

You respect all opinions? What about racist ones?

 

I'm pretty sure that taking tidbits from EU material does not make that material canon. It is more in line with how they've said they will treat the EU: only as an inspiration.

[Girdeux]

Most people that thinks the Legends are now N-canon uses the argument that, from now on, just what Lucas thinks and approves for the saga is valid. Well, they didn't cancelled TOR, and we know Lucas planned to put Revan"s ghost on TCW, so that makes the Old Republic Era canon? He participated on the story-writing for TFU, does that make it canon? He used Coruscant, a name taken from Thrawn Trilogy, does that make it canon? Not saying it does, nor it doesn't, just something to people think about.

 

This has all been explained already a long time ago.

[Beniboybling]

You respect all opinions? What about racist ones?

 

I'm pretty sure that taking tidbits from EU material does not make that material canon. It is more in line with how they've said they will treat the EU: only as an inspiration.

I think more the point is that Lucasfilm has a ton of respect for the Old Republic era and therefore future continuity is unlikely to retcon it in the future. And honestly I agree, some of its already canon.

[marcelo_sdk]

You respect all opinions? What about racist ones?

 

I'm pretty sure that taking tidbits from EU material does not make that material canon. It is more in line with how they've said they will treat the EU: only as an inspiration.

 

I'll not dignify that with answer, someone who says that just wants to be noticed. Go find help.

[marcelo_sdk]

I think more the point is that Lucasfilm has a ton of respect for the Old Republic era and therefore future continuity is unlikely to retcon it in the future. And honestly I agree, some of its already canon.

 

Not to say that they make a lot of money with TOR, there's no reason for not make TOR canon, since it's so far from the timeline they are working with in the movies and TV series.

[JediMasterAlex]

I'll not dignify that with answer, someone who says that just wants to be noticed. Go find help.

 

Noticed by whom? And help for what?

 

Not to say that they make a lot of money with TOR, there's no reason for not make TOR canon, since it's so far from the timeline they are working with in the movies and TV series.

 

That is purely wishful thinking, but whatever floats your boat.

Edited April 30, 2014 by JediMasterAlex