Legends =/= Non-Canon

[DarthDymond]

In the old system, the canon was basically this:

[...snip...]

OLD SYSTEM:

MUST BE Accepted as Canon by the Movies, the Clone Wars, & anything else created by G. Lucas directly:

Episodes I-VI

The Clone Wars

 

CAN BE Accepted as Canon by the Movies, the Clone Wars, & anything else created by G. Lucas directly:

Everything else, provided they don't conflict with the above

 

MUST BE Accepted as Canon by the novels, comics, & anything else NOT created by G. Lucas directly:

Episodes I-VI

The Clone Wars

All licensed Novels not directly contradicted by the Movies or Clone Wars

All licensed Comics not directly contradicted by the Movies or Clone Wars

All licensed Games not directly contradicted by the Movies or Clone Wars

All licensed Guides and Chronologies not directly contradicted by the Movies or Clone Wars

 

CAN BE Accepted as Canon by the novels, comics, & anything else NOT created by G. Lucas directly:

Any individual element of a work that has been labeled non-canon (e.g. the Droids Saturday morning cartoon), provided that element itself isn't explicitly contradicted

 

NEW SYSTEM:

MUST BE Accepted as Canon by the Movies, the Clone Wars & Rebels:

Episodes I-VI

The Clone Wars

All future TV shows

All future novels

All future comics

All future video games

 

CAN BE Accepted as Canon by the Movies, the Clone Wars, & Rebels:

Everything else, provided they don't conflict with the above

 

MUST BE Accepted as Canon by the novels, comics, & videogames:

Episodes I-VI

The Clone Wars

All future TV shows

All future novels

All future comics

All future video games

 

CAN BE Accepted as Canon by the Movies, the Clone Wars, & Rebels:

Everything else, provided they don't conflict with the above

 

The change to the parts in Blue is what has some people annoyed.

 

When Darth Plagueis was released, it was required to treat novels like Shadow Hunter and comics like Jedi Council: Acts of War as binding Canon. When Lords of the Sith is released next year, it will be fully able to disregard those same books/comics. That is a significant change.

Edited April 27, 2014 by DarthDymond

[ambergold]

i am not sure if i like the annoucement of what happening to eu i still alittle bit confuse on who is canon and who isnt.

So is darth bane, exar kun and darth revan legends or canon? And how does this game fit in?

What about the past? I am talking about time frame for example the time frame for this game?

And do we still have siths or mandolarians sorry i know this seems like dumb questions but i am sorta confuse on what it comsidering canon and noncanon.

I personally love the eu i love the heir to empire books and republic commandos books so i know they would be legends it so sad i feel like i lost old friends.

So if anyone could help answer my question or explain what is happening i appreciate:)

[Girdeux]

i am not sure if i like the annoucement of what happening to eu i still alittle bit confuse on who is canon and who isnt.

So is darth bane, exar kun and darth revan legends or canon? And how does this game fit in?

What about the past? I am talking about time frame for example the time frame for this game?

And do we still have siths or mandolarians sorry i know this seems like dumb questions but i am sorta confuse on what it comsidering canon and noncanon.

I personally love the eu i love the heir to empire books and republic commandos books so i know they would be legends it so sad i feel like i lost old friends.

So if anyone could help answer my question or explain what is happening i appreciate:)

 

Everything from the EU is considered Legend. Darth bane is canon as he is originally a Lucas creation, however the things you know about him from the EU arent.

[Timarick]

Everything from the EU is considered Legend. Darth bane is canon as he is originally a Lucas creation, however the things you know about him from the EU arent.

 

Well as we saw with Season 6 of the Clone Wars on Netflix:

 

 

He DOES state he destroyed the Sith as they were because of their weakness and rebuilt them under the guise of the Rule of Two. One to master the Dark Side, and the other to crave it.

 

 

So by and large, while the details of what went down may be subject now to debate, the fact remains he existed, and he DID destroy the Sith Order. Same with Assaj Ventress, Aayla Secura, Quinlan Vos, Boba Fett, Darth Maul's survival/chicken legs, and countless other EU characters and concepts that have shown up in the films or even the Clone Wars show.

 

So while I was initially swept up in the tidal wave of emotions, the more I think about it, the more a simple truth emerges:

 

"Between great complexities, great simplicity emerges." - Winston Churchill.

 

Basically the EU hasn't changed AT ALL. Even before this new system, it still needed to appear in G or T-Canon for the character to be canon. How is this any different? Why because the new books are now also G-Canon? So what? Basically leading up to this, the G and T-Canon took a serious **** on the EU leading up to this before, and how is this any different? The EU still survived these massive retcons and many of the characters with them (Bane, Secura, Vos, Ventress the Mandalorian culture for those of us that went past Season 2, the Nightsisters), it will survive again.

 

So really, just because the Old EU now as a title, doesn't mean it is suddenly swept under the rug as "N-Canon" because before this massive change, each character, concept, and planet, had to make it onto the CLONE WARS OR THE MOVIES for it to BE canon in the first place.

 

So I'm just going to continue reading my Tim Zahn books and play my Jedi Knight games and continue to play KOTOR and SWTOR with no change and hope for MY favourite Star Wars character (Mara Jade Skywalker) to show up in Rebels and Episode VII. Nothing has changed, just the presentation.

 

later days

Edited April 27, 2014 by Timarick

[Beniboybling]

When Darth Plagueis was released, it was required to treat novels like Shadow Hunter and comics like Jedi Council: Acts of War as binding Canon. When Lords of the Sith is released next year, it will be fully able to disregard those same books/comics. That is a significant change.

That doesn't mean Plagueis and Shadow Hunter were ever canon though, in fact is means the exact opposite, canon means you can do whatever you like and disregard that which is not canon.

 

What you are defining is merely how the EU fits into continuity.

 

This is what the future EU books will be, and yes that is a big change but its already been done with TCW and the world did not fall on our heads, the Rise of the Empire era is still very much intact and coherent.

 

EDIT: In response you yours and Sanguiluna's post I made a new thread because there was too much to say.

Edited April 27, 2014 by Beniboybling

[DarthDymond]

That doesn't mean Plagueis and Shadow Hunter were ever canon though

The fact that novels, comics, and games were required to treat Plagueis and Shadow Hunter as if they happened means that as far as the novels, comics and games were concerned, Plagueis and Shadow Hunter were Canon.

 

That is all that the word "Canon" means in the realm of fictional worlds.

[Beniboybling]

The fact that novels, comics, and games were required to treat Plagueis and Shadow Hunter as if they happened means that as far as the novels, comics and games were concerned, Plagueis and Shadow Hunter were Canon.

 

That is all that the word "Canon" means in the realm of fictional worlds.

Clearly there is no reasoning with you here, but forgive me if I take the words of Lucasfilm over yours. Edited April 27, 2014 by Beniboybling

[JediMasterAlex]

I think I'll throw how I'm going to view the canon from now on.

 

I absolutely love the post-RoTJ stuff and have always considered it gospel as far as canon goes (I mean come on, Legacy of The Force was ridiculously good). Same goes for the Old Republic era (Exar Kun, Revan, TOR etc)

 

Currently I'm having a "last hurrah" with the post-Jedi works; the games, the books, the comics, due to the fact that I prefer a single cohesive vision of the universe. This might not work for everyone but it's my way, and it works for me.

 

As far as the pre-RoTJ works go I'm going to wing it, consider everything canon until the new trilogy or new EU works conflict with those stories.

 

In the end I don't think it matters so much what other people consider canon, it's up to each individual fan to choose.

Hell there might be those who choose to ignore the new trilogy altogether and keep the Thrawn Trilogy, the Vong War, Caedus' downfall and the Legacy era as "their" canon.

 

For those complaining about the new trilogy mucking up the post-Jedi EU works I say unto thee:

 

Farfeik! What is wrong with you? For years we've all been clamouring for a sequel trilogy and now we've not only been granted that but we also have Hamil, Ford and fisher returning. This is beyond my wildest expectations.

 

TL;DR: Don't get your panties in a bunch over this, enjoy what you want to. I'm sure the movies will be amazing.

 

This post absolutely sickens me for a number of reasons. You may believe whatever you wish to. Whether that includes any supernatural beings, or that the moon landing was fake, or that EU (or Legends now) novels actually happened within the Star Wars Universe, have a ball. The fact of the matter is, it is NOT up to each individual to decide what is canon. There is only one canon, and that is decided by Lucasfilm.

 

I'll make a real-world analogy: each individual can choose whether or not they want to believe that evolution is a scientific fact, but that has absolutely no bearing on the reality that evolution is a scientific fact. See the difference? Some of us have no interest in self-deception where we can avoid it.

 

Finally, your injuction to "not get your panties in a bunch over this" is downright condescending and insulting. Why shouldn't people be upset that something they care about is being altered in a way that they don't like?

[MiaRB]

This post absolutely sickens me for a number of reasons. You may believe whatever you wish to. Whether that includes any supernatural beings, or that the moon landing was fake, or that EU (or Legends now) novels actually happened within the Star Wars Universe, have a ball. The fact of the matter is, it is NOT up to each individual to decide what is canon. There is only one canon, and that is decided by Lucasfilm.

 

I'll make a real-world analogy: each individual can choose whether or not they want to believe that evolution is a scientific fact, but that has absolutely no bearing on the reality that evolution is a scientific fact. See the difference? Some of us have no interest in self-deception where we can avoid it.

 

Finally, your injuction to "not get your panties in a bunch over this" is downright condescending and insulting. Why shouldn't people be upset that something they care about is being altered in a way that they don't like?

 

you are looking at things in an inaccurate way.

 

think of the story group as being lucas himself. they are not bound to any EU material just as lucas was never bound to it. since all new material will originate from the story group, its treated the same way as if it originated from lucas. so it doesn't mater if old EU material is called legends or c-canon, the new material isn't bound to it.

Edited April 27, 2014 by MiaRB

[JediMasterAlex]

you are looking at things in an inaccurate way.

 

think of the story group as being lucas himself. they are not bound to any EU material just as lucas was never bound to it. since all new material will originate from the story group, its treated the same way as if it originated from lucas. so it doesn't mater if old EU material is called legends or c-canon, the new material isn't bound to it.

 

How does what you're saying here disagree with anything that I've said? How am I looking at things inaccurately exactly? I have always acknowledged that EU/Legends material could be overwritten. That does not mean that the situation hasn't changed significantly.

[MiaRB]

How does what you're saying here disagree with anything that I've said? How am I looking at things inaccurately exactly? I have always acknowledged that EU/Legends material could be overwritten. That does not mean that the situation hasn't changed significantly.

 

nothing has changed for existing EU material, other than the label used is now legends instead of EU or c-canon.

 

the other change is how new SW content will be created. all 'real' canon material will originate with the story group and then be given to writers. instead of the old way, where EU writers had free rain over what stories they told. which led to some of the ridiculousness of the EU.

 

so what exactly is bad about the way things will be going forward?

[CerberusFlames]

This post absolutely sickens me for a number of reasons. You may believe whatever you wish to. Whether that includes any supernatural beings, or that the moon landing was fake, or that EU (or Legends now) novels actually happened within the Star Wars Universe, have a ball. The fact of the matter is, it is NOT up to each individual to decide what is canon. There is only one canon, and that is decided by Lucasfilm.

 

I'll make a real-world analogy: each individual can choose whether or not they want to believe that evolution is a scientific fact, but that has absolutely no bearing on the reality that evolution is a scientific fact. See the difference? Some of us have no interest in self-deception where we can avoid it.

 

Finally, your injuction to "not get your panties in a bunch over this" is downright condescending and insulting. Why shouldn't people be upset that something they care about is being altered in a way that they don't like?

 

The important thing here is that you didn't overreact.

 

EDIT: I'm sorry that my opinions sicken you, but let's be fair, I was only explaining the way I view the EU. The entire spirit of the post being "Look at it however you want to"

 

I hate to break it to you but Star Wars (unlike evolution) is a made up story; none of it actually happened. So if you end up preferring the old EU, consider that your canon, if you love the new movies do likewise.

 

Here's a more accurate (and potentially more controversial) analogy:

 

1977 Han shoots first.

 

1997 Greedo shoots first.

 

Who shot first? That's up to you.

Edited April 27, 2014 by CerberusFlames

[Arilou_skiff]

I hate to break it to you but Star Wars (unlike evolution) is a made up story; none of it actually happened. So if you end up preferring the old EU, consider that your canon, if you love the new movies do likewise.

 

While this is good and all, these two things would only be equivalent if both of these things continue to be produced. If (as it seems from info we've been getting) the "Legends" banner only applies to already published products and will not include any new ones set in "The Old Continuity" that means that these two things aren't equivalent: The people who want to know what happened to Jaina Solo or whatever (I haven't read much post-ROTJ stuff so I have no idea what important stuff has been going on) aren't going to get that: Sure, they can write their own fanfic, but that story is dead.

 

In that sense the canonicity mattes less.

 

While these kinds of universal reboots can work, they can also uh... Not work very well. Just look at the response to the New DCU.

[JediMasterAlex]

Here's a more accurate (and potentially more controversial) analogy:

 

1977 Han shoots first.

 

1997 Greedo shoots first.

 

Who shot first? That's up to you.

 

I disagree. It isn't up to me. Greedo shoots first. Easy. Why? Because that was Lucas's intention, as he has said, and the latest version of the movie reflects that. New canon overwrites old canon.

Edited April 28, 2014 by JediMasterAlex

[Timarick]

you are looking at things in an inaccurate way.

 

Think of the story group as being lucas himself. They are not bound to any eu material just as lucas was never bound to it. Since all new material will originate from the story group, its treated the same way as if it originated from lucas. So it doesn't mater if old eu material is called legends or c-canon, the new material isn't bound to it.

 

this!!!! omg!!!

Edited April 28, 2014 by Timarick

[Sadishist]

I disagree. It isn't up to me. Greedo shoots first. Easy. Why? Because that was Lucas's intention, as he has said, and the latest version of the movie reflects that. New canon overwrites old canon.

 

Lucas doesn't own Star Wars anymore.

[JediMasterAlex]

Lucas doesn't own Star Wars anymore.

 

Good point. But until Disney comes out with a version that contradicts the current one, Greedo still shot first. That isn't a matter of opinion unless you want to ignore reality.

[DarthDymond]

The important thing here is that you didn't overreact.

 

EDIT: I'm sorry that my opinions sicken you, but let's be fair, I was only explaining the way I view the EU. The entire spirit of the post being "Look at it however you want to"

 

I hate to break it to you but Star Wars (unlike evolution) is a made up story; none of it actually happened. So if you end up preferring the old EU, consider that your canon, if you love the new movies do likewise.

 

Here's a more accurate (and potentially more controversial) analogy:

 

1977 Han shoots first.

 

1997 Greedo shoots first.

 

Who shot first? That's up to you.

The idea of a "personal canon" stretches the core idea of "canon" to the breaking point. You can certainly have your own personal vision of what happens in Star Wars, it's a fictional universe after all, but calling that a "canon" would be a very... unorthodox use of the word.

 

The whole point of a canon in fiction is to establish an agreed upon version of events for a defined universe. To get everyone on the proverbial same page.

[Ksolkenny]

I dont get the level of desperation in the whole EU/canon discussion Ive been witnessing..why is it important if something "happened" in a fictional setting..its so arbitrary..

If you enjoy a fictional story more power to you,what anyone else labels it,never changes the fact that you read/played/enjoyed it,the book etc does not vanish into thin air..obsessing over details in this way a fictional universe seems semi autistic and not a very healthy way to occupy time you could use to learn actual history or a skill.

[Beniboybling]

I dont get the level of desperation in the whole EU/canon discussion Ive been witnessing..why is it important if something "happened" in a fictional setting..its so arbitrary..

If you enjoy a fictional story more power to you,what anyone else labels it,never changes the fact that you read/played/enjoyed it,the book etc does not vanish into thin air..obsessing over details in this way a fictional universe seems semi autistic and not a very healthy way to occupy time you could use to learn actual history or a skill.

This is a very narrow-minded perspective that does not take into account the fact the fictional works don't just exist on the page, or end when the last page is turned. They exist in our imaginations and our interactions with other fans.

 

For that reason its important to fans and to Lucasfilm that these stories have significance beyond the text, that they make up a wider tapestry because that's what makes the universe so real and alive to its audience. It's what enriches the stories themselves through unprecedented levels of intertextuality. And it is why fans come together to discuss and share it as if it has meaning beyond the mere context of the story itself, because it does.

 

So of course its very important to fans what is regarded as part of that tapestry and what is not, definitions which will have an effect on the way in which these stories will interact and complement each other in the future. Because that will effect how they enjoy future stories and enjoy discussing these characters, it effects perspective. Do you really think the EU would have been so successful if it was all branded as fanfiction? Ha, It wouldn't even be cohesive.

 

Now you may be thinking to yourself "well they can still think it 'real' in their heads right? What does it matter what other people say?" Bantha poodoo! We are social beings, what other people think effects what we think and part of what makes Star Wars enjoyable is the fact that everyone can enjoy the same story and perceive it in the same way.

 

Really, the only thing that's unhealthy here is your bigoted lack of understanding for how people appreciate fiction. Take your own advice and actually learn something, I suggest you start with

Edited April 28, 2014 by Beniboybling

[JediMasterAlex]

This is a very narrow-minded perspective that does not take into account the fact the fictional works don't just exist on the page, or end when the last page is turned. They exist in our imaginations and our interactions with other fans.

 

For that reason its important to fans and to Lucasfilm that these stories have significance beyond the text, that they make up a wider tapestry because that's what makes the universe so real and alive to its audience. It's what enriches the stories themselves through unprecedented levels of intertextuality. And it is why fans come together to discuss and share it as if it has meaning beyond the mere context of the story itself, because it does.

 

So of course its very important to fans what is regarded as part of that tapestry and what is not, definitions which will have an effect on the way in which these stories will interact and complement each other in the future. Because that will effect how they enjoy future stories and enjoy discussing these characters, it effects perspective. Do you really think the EU would have been so successful if it was all branded as fanfiction? Ha, It wouldn't even be cohesive.

 

Now you may be thinking to yourself "well they can still think it 'real' in their heads right? What does it matter what other people say?" Bantha poodoo! We are social beings, what other people think effects what we think and part of what makes Star Wars enjoyable is the fact that everyone can enjoy the same story and perceive it in the same way.

 

Really, the only thing that's unhealthy here is your bigoted lack of understanding for how people appreciate fiction. Take your own advice and learn something, I suggest you start with

 

At last you make a post that I can fully agree with. Bravo!

 

Seriously though, this perspective is one that more people need to read and appreciate, because most people apparently don't get it.

Edited April 28, 2014 by JediMasterAlex

[ericpeterson]

My favorite way of describing why some people see an importance in canon is this, in regards to franchises that license out various pieces of media. Specifically Lucasfilm, as of April 25th.

 

Someone creates a sandbox. They build a bunch of cool sand castles. You are invited into their sandbox, and are invited to create your own castles. A bunch of kids are invited into that sandbox to look at the stuff, but you're invited to create new castles in their sandbox.

 

And then another. And another.

 

Pretty soon that sandbox is full of castles. Overloaded. No room to actually build anymore from inside the sandbox. We need a bigger boat.

 

Fast forward 20 years. That same guy is like "Hey, lets do this at like an art exhibit. Because I'm older now, but I love building sand castles, and lets try to make something that is fit for show. Our best work."

 

The guy who set this all up finds a bigger sandbox, invites some of his favorites to come in and build new castles with him. However, he says "You know, let me help you more in terms of building. Provide some guidelines, so we end up with an even better sandcastle collection, and most importantly, we do not end up with so many sand castles all disjointed and overflowing out of the sandbox. Lets work together under a better plan so that the people who we invite to come look at these castles see's exactly what you and I want to build together. I'm going to be more hands on now. We'll build this together, with my vision as a guide."

 

The old sandbox is still there for people who actually do like that overflowing sandbox with castles of every shape and size. Then there's this new sandbox that is a carefully guided masterpiece.

 

There are those who will love the disjointed and high variety of the old sandbox. Its there. Its just not being worked on.

 

Me, personally, I really get a kick out of seeing the presentation they want me to see. I want to see that new sandbox that is crafted with all of the lessons learned from that old sandbox. That is intriguing to me and really could make for really great exploration.

 

Love the old sandbox? Its there for you. They aren't working on it anymore. Want to see what they are working on now? Its here.

 

 

If you're really interested in seeing some great discussion on the EU and how the powers that be are handling things going forward, I encourage you to check out the forums on http://starwars.wikia.com. You guys all know that as the #1 source of encyclopedic knowledge on Star Wars and the EU. They are spinning their wheels heavily on how to categorize and sort through all of these things now that we have an "old sandbox" and "new sandbox." Its enthralling. Really detailed stuff... Like for example, they are currently sorting through how to actually label things like the aliens in the Cantina, since a lot of those alien names are rarely mentioned in the movies and such. So if the EU doesn't exist, how do you categorize an Ithorian? Is an Ithorian ever referenced by name in the movies or TCW? These guys are experts... larger experts than you or I... and its really interesting to see how the landscape of Star Wars changes with this news.

[Beniboybling]

The one thing I found interesting about Wookieepedia today was their Quote of the Day:

 

"People who alter or destroy works of art and our cultural heritage for profit or as an exercise of power are barbarians"

―George Lucas in 1988

 

The irony is almost to good to be coincidental.

[DarthDymond]

The one thing I found interesting about Wookieepedia today was their Quote of the Day:

 

"People who alter or destroy works of art and our cultural heritage for profit or as an exercise of power are barbarians"

―George Lucas in 1988

 

The irony is almost to good to be coincidental.

Haha, yeah I saw that too. Definitely made me laugh (although it was so much more delicious years back when it got thrown around in the context of people bashing him for the Special Editions rather than over this latest development - I don't think you could possibly have gotten more on-point than that).

[JediMasterAlex]

My favorite way of describing why some people see an importance in canon is this, in regards to franchises that license out various pieces of media. Specifically Lucasfilm, as of April 25th.

 

Someone creates a sandbox. They build a bunch of cool sand castles. You are invited into their sandbox, and are invited to create your own castles. A bunch of kids are invited into that sandbox to look at the stuff, but you're invited to create new castles in their sandbox.

 

And then another. And another.

 

Pretty soon that sandbox is full of castles. Overloaded. No room to actually build anymore from inside the sandbox. We need a bigger boat.

 

Fast forward 20 years. That same guy is like "Hey, lets do this at like an art exhibit. Because I'm older now, but I love building sand castles, and lets try to make something that is fit for show. Our best work."

 

The guy who set this all up finds a bigger sandbox, invites some of his favorites to come in and build new castles with him. However, he says "You know, let me help you more in terms of building. Provide some guidelines, so we end up with an even better sandcastle collection, and most importantly, we do not end up with so many sand castles all disjointed and overflowing out of the sandbox. Lets work together under a better plan so that the people who we invite to come look at these castles see's exactly what you and I want to build together. I'm going to be more hands on now. We'll build this together, with my vision as a guide."

 

The old sandbox is still there for people who actually do like that overflowing sandbox with castles of every shape and size. Then there's this new sandbox that is a carefully guided masterpiece.

 

There are those who will love the disjointed and high variety of the old sandbox. Its there. Its just not being worked on.

 

Me, personally, I really get a kick out of seeing the presentation they want me to see. I want to see that new sandbox that is crafted with all of the lessons learned from that old sandbox. That is intriguing to me and really could make for really great exploration.

 

Love the old sandbox? Its there for you. They aren't working on it anymore. Want to see what they are working on now? Its here.

 

 

If you're really interested in seeing some great discussion on the EU and how the powers that be are handling things going forward, I encourage you to check out the forums on http://starwars.wikia.com. You guys all know that as the #1 source of encyclopedic knowledge on Star Wars and the EU. They are spinning their wheels heavily on how to categorize and sort through all of these things now that we have an "old sandbox" and "new sandbox." Its enthralling. Really detailed stuff... Like for example, they are currently sorting through how to actually label things like the aliens in the Cantina, since a lot of those alien names are rarely mentioned in the movies and such. So if the EU doesn't exist, how do you categorize an Ithorian? Is an Ithorian ever referenced by name in the movies or TCW? These guys are experts... larger experts than you or I... and its really interesting to see how the landscape of Star Wars changes with this news.

 

Your analogy does not make sense, because the sandbox could never get anywhere close to full. In fact, one could easily argue that there was an infinite amount of space in the sandbox. They could have kept writing into the future of Star Wars forever, or back in the past for thousands of more years. They could have written about more minor events in the periods that are well-explored, etc.

 

Also, you've misunderstood the point about why some people care about continuity. I take little pleasure in viewing the "old sandbox" as a work of art. I enjoy Star Wars partly because it is a vast interconnected universe. For more details, see the posts above. Sadly, I have no further interest in EU material that isn't considered canon, but I am looking forward to the new stuff that they come up with.