Powertech Tank - All that is wrong with it right now

[Mograth]

Okay, I've now played my Powertech Tank to level 40 and I've seen enough of the game that I feel I can bring up a few points about the AC that are currently really, really bad. While not all of these changes should probably be implemented together, I feel it is at least necessary to implement some of them to make the class feel more fluid and fun to play.

 

For those of you with the attention spam of a squirrel on coffee, there will be a TL;DR list further down. Please move along.

 

Let's start out on low levels and move up in the world of crime as we go along.

 

Flame Thrower is currently the main skill for damage and aggro as a Powertech. But time and time again, I get annoyed as hell, because even at level 40 you sometimes miss with it, having a ranged enemy stand exactly on 11m while you spray on 10m. This could be easily solved by making it castable while moving. While I can see what problems this can result in, I'd strongly suggest to at least give the Shield Tech Tree the ability to spend 2-3 points into this, to make our life a lot easier.

 

At level 10, when you specialize, you gain the ability "Flame Burst". In itself, the ability is pretty damn neat and I like it a lot. What I do not like is the fact that it costs heat. As a Powertech, we spend 90% of our time in a 4m range, due to Rocket Punch. Having to use Rapid Shots feels seriously wrong in this situation. I'd greatly prefer for Flame Burst to become the Powertech ability of choice to spam between heat skills, while keeping Rapid Shots viable for Pyrotech players. After all, the whole "Set things on fire"-stuff is one of the most signature things about Powertechs. I guess we could survive with it being a bit weaker initially and just putting in a more viable talent into the DD Trees to buff it up.

 

Now that we got that out of the way, let's move on to a few higher levels, around 20ish.

 

So, Bioware, what is up with Oil Slick? The skills is probably the weakest out of the current tank skills and feels just underwhelming in the way it's implement. I can see how -20% chance to hit for enemies might sound nice on paper, but in practice it's not that great. Enemies run out of it to look for cover, Bosses don't give a f*** with their AoE spams.

 

A way to solve this problem would be to allow us to a) spray the Oil where we want and b) ignite Oil Slick by pressing the button we used to spray it somewhere a second time, creating our personal little realm of hell somewhere. This would also be more in line with the AoE tanking of Powertech right now. It shouldn't deal a massive amount of damage, but it should have a high amount of aggro generation, such allowing us to pick up some enemies that run past us, because Sonic Missile is on cooldown from the last wave.

 

Next up on the 20ish: Grapple. While I understand that Grapple has to be balanced due to PvP reasons, I feel that it currently has two major disadvantages as a Tank: A) Minimum Range of 10. This is too much. Lower it to 3, so we can use it as a viable single target taunt. B) It's our ONLY high-aggro ability and it's on a 45s CD (35 if you skill it). I'd like to see this lowered to 35/25s right now. That way, if something goes haywire, we can use it to regain aggro a bit. While I can see how this might not work out very well with PvP in mind, I feel that at the very least the lowering of the minimum range on this skill is necessary.

 

Alright, with all of this out of the way, it's time to talk about higher level talents.

 

Jet Charge: I feel this has the same problem as Grapple. A lowering of the range to 3m and adding some bonus threat generation for single target, would be nice.

 

Kolto Overload: While nice, the ability is currently too weak. Compared to 30% more HP from Juggernaut, this is like trying to drink cold water on Hoth. While I like the basic way it works, I think it should regenerate a lot more. If you fear for PvP problems, please just make it a Tank talent higher in the tree. That is all.

 

Flame Sweep: Currently our main skill for AoE tanking in combo with Flame Thrower it's 5m range is way too low. Especially with groups being made up of ranged enemies that are all over the place. Increase it to 10m, everyone will be happy. And maybe lower the heat cost a little. To 18ish, maybe 20ish.

 

Shoulder Slam: What the f***? Most useless skill I've ever seen in an MMO. Hell, the racial skills are more useful than this. Rework the entire skill this instant, nobody in their right mind is using it.

 

Heat Blast: Oh boy, here it comes. What in all the blazing hells where you thinking with this? -8 Heat on a 15s cooldown? Seriously? We are talking about the highest skill in a talent tree here and you deliver us this? The cooldown needs to be massively lowered or the heat to be increased by a giant amount. Also, seeing how this is the last skill in the Tank tree, I feel it should once again be changed to also generate a good amount of single target threat. I am actually considering to drop Heat Blast out of my skill choices and pick either Retractable Blade or Incendiary Missle, because it seems a lot more useful than my level 40 Tank skill.

 

Well, this is pretty much all of it in long sentences. Here is the promised list for people who don't want to read this much text (Lazy buggers).

 

• Flamethrower castable while moving. Either basic or at least a Shield Tech talent.
  
• Flame Burst no heat cost to replace Rapid Shots for Melee-Heavy Powertech (while keeping Shots for Pyrotech).
  
• Oil Slick a targetable spells, 2nd Button press ignites it to create a hell of flames that generates a high amount of aoe aggro, but doesn't deal much damage.
  
• At least lowering of Grapple min range to 3m instead of 10m. Preferably -10 on it's basic cooldown.
  
• Jet Charge min range lowered to 3m, bonus threat
  
• Kolto Overload needs to be buffed, either by talent or basic (PvP Problems)
  
• Flame Sweep range increase to 10m
  
• Entire rework of Shoulder Slam
  
• Heat Blast either massive increase in it's heat reduce or massiv cooldown reduce. Preferably while also adding some bonus threat for single target aggro.
  

 

 

 

Things up on my list still to determine, but that I feel might be necessary:

 

Carbonize working a bit longer against PvE targets, while keeping it's current 2.5 seconds on PvP targets.

 

Thermal Sensor Override for 2-3 abilities instead of 1.

 

 

Please remember: I don't think all of these need to be added, but I feel that a lot of these should be added to make the class more fun and get the entire class design out of it's 2000ish baby shoes. Thank you for your time, leave feedback, leave comments, post your own concerns.

 

Please keep in mind: I didn't sleep a lot and English is not my main language, I realize there might be some serious mistakes in this. I just can't be arsed to fix it all right now

Also, excuse the swearing in-between if you feel it inappropriate, but I felt it was necessary as a means to make sure it's understandable just how horrible some of these problems are.

[AnubisXy]

Flame Burst

 

No can do. Flame Burst gets a lot of Talents in the trees that increases its power and effectiveness. Bioware isn't about to let Powertechs use Flame Burst for free, unless they first remove all of the talents that buff it and then drop the damage down. But they're not going to buff Rapid Shots, because Rapid Shots is the free attack that Mercenaries use.

 

Besides. I personally would rather have a free 30 meter attack than a free 10 meter attack.

 

Oil Slick

 

Oil Slick is a terrible talent. RNG based defensive cooldowns are never a good idea for tank classes. Hopefully Bioware modifies this talent.

 

Grapple

 

Reducing the base cooldown would be a bit much for PvP, but I agree on getting rid of he minimum range. There have been several occasions where I wanted to pull someone that was about 8 meters or so away, so I could get them into an AoE, but I had to do a ton of repositioning to do so.

 

Jet Charge

 

I basically agree.

 

Kolto Overload

 

Kolto Overload is a terrible ability right now. At end game you'll have around 14k health. Popping Kolto Overload will heal you for around 210 damage per second - end game PvE bosses are regularly hitting for around 2000 per attack. That basically heals you up for 1 attack over 10 seconds.

 

Powertechs need a talent that makes all of the healing happen up front, or lowers damage they take by 15% while Kolto Overload is activate.

 

Flame Sweep

 

Honestly I don't have a problem with Flame Sweep. We've got the best ranged and AoE of all of the tanks, and handling groups isn't that difficult.

 

Shoulder Slam

 

yeah, it's silly.

 

Heat Blast

 

Assuming you use Heat Blast every cooldown, it increases the amount of Heat you vent by .53 every second. That's a 10% increase to your Heat vent (assuming you're in the 0-39% range) or as much as a 25% increase to your Heat venting if you're in the 91-100% range.

 

Further, since it's 8 Heat all at once that you lose, it lets you break up into the 40-47 Heat area and then pop Heat Blast to drop back down into the better Heat venting range.

 

I agree that it should have a threat boost to it, but I think Heat Blast is a pretty decent ability; certainly far more useful than Retractable Blade, which is going to cause you to overheat pretty badly once you start using it.

 

 

I would also suggest that Bioware should look at Shield Vents. Both Assassins and Juggernauts have fairly passive, constant boots to Force/Rage. Shield Vents has a 50% chance to activate whenever you shield against an attack. It's basically a proc of a proc; it's not reliable. Maybe 1/2 the amount of Heat vented and increase the chance to 100%.

Edited December 23, 2011 by AnubisXy

[Hatemenow]

Thanks for the well thought out input. I love playing BH tank and refuse to give up on the class. Let's hope some of these changes will be implemented!

[Mograth]

No can do. Flame Burst gets a lot of Talents in the trees that increases its power and effectiveness. Bioware isn't about to let Powertechs use Flame Burst for free, unless they first remove all of the talents that buff it and then drop the damage down. But they're not going to buff Rapid Shots, because Rapid Shots is the free attack that Mercenaries use.

 

Besides. I personally would rather have a free 30 meter attack than a free 10 meter attack.

 

I personally believe that there should be a valid choice between using Rapid Shots and Flame Burst. Even if this means that Rapid Shots get only buffed massively for Merc due to Talents and we only get a slight buff in Pyrotech for that skill, while our other trees buff Flame Burst a lot. I'd like to see this tweaked.

 

Powertechs need a talent that makes all of the healing happen up front, or lowers damage they take by 15% while Kolto Overload is activate.

 

Ye, that would work too.

 

Honestly I don't have a problem with Flame Sweep. We've got the best ranged and AoE of all of the tanks, and handling groups isn't that difficult.

 

Some groups need 2-3 Flame Sweeps, which means you have roughly 60% heat. After that, you have to make sure you keep aggro on the Elite that one crazy DD is focusing. So, ye. Less heat or more range would be nice, so we don't have to spam it a few times to cover the area. Or just implement my idea for Oil Slick, that works too

 

Assuming you use Heat Blast every cooldown, it increases the amount of Heat you vent by .53 every second. That's a 10% increase to your Heat vent (assuming you're in the 0-39% range) or as much as a 25% increase to your Heat venting if you're in the 91-100% range.

 

Further, since it's 8 Heat all at once that you lose, it lets you break up into the 40-47 Heat area and then pop Heat Blast to drop back down into the better Heat venting range.

 

I agree that it should have a threat boost to it, but I think Heat Blast is a pretty decent ability; certainly far more useful than Retractable Blade, which is going to cause you to overheat pretty badly once you start using it.

 

While Theorycrafting is nice, in reality, it's just not as feasible as it sounds. Most times you end up on a lot higher Heat due to having some DDs that just spam their AoE/Burst like crazy. To counter-act that, Heat Blast would make a nice addition. It would be nice to have Heat Blast as either a permanent skill to reduce heat in your rotation instead of the current situational use or as a "OH ****" button to reduce heat when necessary on a bit longer CD maybe for a good amount. Like 20 Heat on a 30-45s CD. Thought I'd greatly prefer the first version of maybe a 5-6s CD to vent 4-8 Heat.

 

After all, it's the last skill of a talent tree. These skills should feel more powerful and really, really cool. Heat Blast is currently weak in that respect. It does not look cool, it doesn't really feel powerful and it's underwhelming in it's current version. A chance should be done, same as with Oil Slick.

 

I would also suggest that Bioware should look at Shield Vents. Both Assassins and Juggernauts have fairly passive, constant boots to Force/Rage. Shield Vents has a 50% chance to activate whenever you shield against an attack. It's basically a proc of a proc; it's not reliable. Maybe 1/2 the amount of Heat vented and increase the chance to 100%.

 

It was 100% in Beta as far as I remember. So no idea why they changed it.

 

 

 

On a side note, some help on this would be great: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=693280#post693280

Edited December 24, 2011 by Mograth

[Sjoko]

After 49 levels, I've decided to put my PT to rest.

 

Never ever played a more frustrating tank class. Damage dealt isn't that great and absorbtion of damage is riddiculously low.

 

2 level 47-48 strong mobs and you have to be a 100% focused to survive and if you don't have a healer, good luck surviving. If Mako starts channeling and stops healing, you'll be dripping of sweat after the battle if you survived.

 

Tried the class quest called: "Number One with a bullet", there's 2 level 48 silver elites guarding one of the last doors. With limited CC and their ability to heal not only themselves but eachother as the fight is at least for me, impossible. Can't get the damage output high enough for them to go down before their heal lands. Tried different companions. Either the companion goes down too fast or I'm dead by the time I get one down half way.

 

If I need to respec every time I want to do a quest, the class has failed, especially since there's no dualspec system in place and there's no plans to implement one either.

 

My list would be way longer than this, but the essentials:

Ways to be able to take more damage and a way to reliably CC for more than 4 seconds.

Don't care if it unusable on players, just want it for PVE.

Jet Charge should be for all specs. Since rocket punch does a great deal of damage and you need to be close it makes sense to have an abillity to get up close and personal fast.

Edited December 24, 2011 by Sjoko

[Mograth]

Ways to be able to take more damage and a way to reliably CC for more than 4 seconds. Don't care if it unusable on players, just want it for PVE.

 

This problem comes mostly from Oil Slick and Kolto Overload being ****, as well as the need for some decent gear (Absorption, Defense and Shield Rating. Good god!). The CC is true though, we don't really have any good PvE CC with a long duration. I vote for AoE Carbonite CC that breaks on Damage.

 

Jet Charge should be for all specs. Since rocket punch does a great deal of damage and you need to be close it makes sense to have an abillity to get up close and personal fast.

 

Was that way in Beta and make the class op as hell. Imagine trying to run from a Powertech and all he does is Grapple -> Jet Charge -> Grapple -> Jet Charge -> Grapple. And you can't do ANYTHING against him. That's why it's now a Tank talent. Though I think Grapple should be the Tank talent and Jet Charge for everyone, that would work, ye.

 

Overall there is a good lack of Jetpack use. A "slow-fall" like ability or something like Hunters in WoW got. Disengage. Jump back from someone a few yard. Though it would probably also be solvable by turning Jet Charge into a aimed ability with AoE damage instead of a single-target charge.

 

 

Overall Bounty Hunters right now feel really weird to play and I actually have to wonder if this is not also due to the fact that the GCD is really high.

 

I also think some re-balancing of dps vs health is in order in PvE. I actually get hand-cramps while playing SWTOR from button-smashing. And I'm a hardcore mass-consumption gamer (not just MMOs, pretty much any game. I'm a "You name it, I played it"-type of gamer), I tend to play around 8-11h when I got the time (because you can't do anything else in this gosh darn town). So, I have my share of button smashing, typing and stuff. I do not want to know how this kind of stuff is for untrained hands if they play for a long time.

 

 

 

Also soloed Boarding Party about 12 times tonight, still no drop. I think I need to bugger Stephen Reid about this.

Edited December 24, 2011 by Mograth

[pojectshadow]

The only ting i would agree is with both shoulder slam, kolto overload, and oil slick being sub par skills. Everything else i think is perfectly fine. I rarely have threat issues and mainly because the mobs are very far spread out but i know i jug would an even harder time with such pulls. Free flame burst would be way to OP, we would just have to spam that one single skill to never lose threat. Any changes to grapple and jet charge would be to OP in PVP aspects. The main purpose as BH is to manage heat not to spam skills the faster we spam the faster we lose control of a fight. As long as we don't overheat threat is a non issue.

[Opferlamm]

First to say - I would love to see most of the suggestions. Beeing OP cant hurt. But then:

Flame Thrower is ... This could be easily solved by making it castable while moving. .

You got that skill - Its called Flamesweep. Ofc it produces more heat but thats the cost for beeing more mobile. The trick is to choose the right one / combination.

 

Flame Burst". ...costs heat. As a Powertech, we spend 90% of our time in a 4m range, due to Rocket Punch. Having to use Rapid Shots feels seriously wrong in this situation.

And again a matter of your choice. Spamming Flameburst will overheat you. While using Rapid shots at low heatlvl´s effectivly help you reducing your heat, course it drops while channeling it. (CC-effect on trash is even a bonus when getting aggr off a healer.)

 

 

Oil Slick? -20% chance to hit for enemies might sound nice on paper, but in practice it's not that great. Enemies run out of it to look for cover, Bosses don't give a f*** with their AoE spams.

20% les***** is 20% less damage (asuming the Mobs have an accuracy of 95% might not occur on some bosses - dont know) If the skill is useless it seems like you got positioningissues. Try to charge a ranged enemy grapple a second - flamesweep to aggro the melees then oilslick the whole bunch. Tell your teammates to let you pull if that doesnt work.

 

Grapple. ... Minimum Range of 10. This is too much. ... it's on a 45s CD (35 if you skill it). ... if something goes haywire, we can use it to regain aggro a bit.

This skill is to position your targets accurate for you aoe´s. You can bundle or line them up for Flamthrower... 45secs is quite ok - not great I agree but since it wasnt created to be a aggroprimary aggroskill thats fine.

 

Jet Charge: I feel this has the same problem as Grapple. A lowering of the range to 3m and adding some bonus threat generation for single target, would be nice.

Show me one 5+ Mobgroup which hasnt a single ranged Mob a bit aside after you pulled it. Jump to that one hit him a bit Maybe some ranged skills on the rest of the group and jump back. Mobile tanking is quite funny and Swtor supports it. Play how you like to but you wont regret trying it.

 

 

Kolto Overload: While nice, the ability is currently too weak. Compared to 30% more HP from Juggernaut, this is like trying to drink cold water on Hoth.

Its a free talant. And it saves the day almost every day. The juggernauts talent on the other side is treebased. Our "mirrior"skill (ok some strange and scary mirror) is oilslick. He got 10% ahead vs singlemobs and we got the aoe advantage. Kolto is much stronger for DD´s but after all its free.

Flame Sweep: Currently our main skill for AoE tanking in combo with Flame Thrower it's 5m range is way too low. Especially with groups being made up of ranged enemies that are all over the place. Increase it to 10m, everyone will be happy. And maybe lower the heat cost a little. To 18ish, maybe 20ish.

Use this skill with caution. Its like the standard rocket good to get the initial aggro but way to expensive to make it an aggrokeeper. I only use it as my heat drops to low. The range is a problem yes. But if you hit most mobs you do know that your charge/pull/positionating was good.

 

Shoulder Slam: What the f***? Most useless skill I've ever seen in an MMO. Hell, the racial skills are more useful than this. Rework the entire skill this instant, nobody in their right mind is using it.

Mh.. I agree. Nice damage for the efford though. Lay it on a rare used button, use it on your own stuns and you might get used to it as your teammates do so. No big loss if you don´t but if you want to sqeesh the last bit out of the char, this is the skill to end with. (Maybe the standardrocket)

 

Heat Blast: Oh boy, here it comes. What in all the blazing hells where you thinking with this? -8 Heat on a 15s cooldown? Seriously? We are talking about the highest skill in a talent tree here and you deliver us this? The cooldown needs to be massively lowered or the heat to be increased by a giant amount. Also, seeing how this is the last skill in the Tank tree, I feel it should once again be changed to also generate a good amount of single target threat. I am actually considering to drop Heat Blast out of my skill choices and pick either Retractable Blade or Incendiary Missle, because it seems a lot more useful than my level 40 Tank skill.

We may discuss this skill again after you tested some of my suggestions. It is awesome. My heat barely goes above 30.

 

 

Carbonize working a bit longer against PvE targets, while keeping it's current 2.5 seconds on PvP targets.

Again an aoe-skill. With enough aggro it may prevent several thousands of damage. And that is still not enough?

 

Thermal Sensor Override for 2-3 abilities instead of 1.

Pick a highheatskill and it will help a lot. Also do not use it as your heat is high but to prevent ist to get higher.

[Kollbjorn]

Flamethrower - Is it frustrating sometimes? Sure. But should it be changed? Probably not. If you get used to the range on it you will very rarely miss. And if a mob is out of range you only have yourself to blame, since positioning is at the discretion of the tank.

 

Flame Burst - I actually LIKE that we still have to use Rapid Shots. We hardly ever get to use our blaster and it is an iconic part of the BH class. If we used Flame Burst instead, hell, I might as well dump my gun for a second flamethrower.

 

Oil Slick - Not the greatest tanking CD I agree, but it is quite low in the tree as well. I feel like it does its job acceptably considering it only has a 1 minute CD. Just don't expect it to save your life. It's more of a use-on-CD-for-mitigation tool.

 

Grapple - No minimum range would be a nice QoL change. Personally though, I am not a fan of moves that have increased threat and low damage. It just FEELS like I'm being useless. Plus, we already have two taunts, do we really need another? I'd hope I wasn't dropping aggro that much.

 

Jet Charge - Where is the need for all this threat gen coming from? It works great as a gap closer, and like Grapple it would be nice QoL to have a low minimum range, but I wouldn't ever use this in melee for the same reason I wouldn't use grapple. I'd rather use an actual useful ability.

 

Kolto Overload - Underwhelming, I agree.

 

Flame Sweep - The range on this is quite low and I agree it would be nice if it was longer. The heat cost on it is fine, so long as you are not trying to spam it. Like Flame Burst, it just clearly isn't meant to be something we spam all the time. Hit it once to get AoE aggro and then single target. If you are being forced to use it every GCD then you should rethink the way your group is approaching the pull.

 

Shoulder Slam - Not even on my bars. Quite useless.

 

Heat Blast - I really don't understand the Heat Blast hate. It is an amazing skill that costs 24 less heat than all your other single target abilities. When you hit 40 and get HB your play FEELS DIFFERENT. Heat control becomes much more fluid and dynamic. How can you really complain about an ability that does that? Considering it is the most heat efficient use of a GCD you have it is difficult to complain about its damage or threat generation, especially when both outclass Rapid Shots anyway.

[TheronFett]

I'm reminded of a quote from the movie The Incredibles when I read threads like this: "Because when everyone's super...no one is."

 

ALL classes have some derp abilities. When the players start complaining about this kind of stuff, it starts the nerf/buff/balance game and before you know it, this game turns into WoW where there is no challenge. Everyone just has a keyboard full of I WIN buttons, and that sucks.

 

There are some valid concerns raised here by other posters. Min/max ranges on certain abilities for example. But by and large, 90% of the issues voiced by the OP are really of no concern. To me, they sound like a wishlist from a former WoW player.

[Mograth]

I'd like to remind everyone that what I am talking about is not numbers here. Numbers CAN AND WILL always be changed and tweaked. What we are talking about here is the game play feeling of a class and how it's skills feel compared to what they could be. Powertech is fun, there is no doubt about that, but a lot of the class could be more nicely rounded to make it feel better in the way it plays. There is a lot of this stuff for other classes too that could be improved, no doubt, but that's not the point here

 

You got that skill - Its called Flamesweep. Ofc it produces more heat but thats the cost for beeing more mobile. The trick is to choose the right one / combination.

 

Ye, still, it's pretty annoying. Most of the time I just stand right in front of enemies anyways to spam Flamethrower, it could just feel a lot more fluid. Especially at low-level it's annoying as hell until you get Flame Sweep.

 

And again a matter of your choice. Spamming Flameburst will overheat you. While using Rapid shots at low heatlvl´s effectivly help you reducing your heat, course it drops while channeling it. (CC-effect on trash is even a bonus when getting aggr off a healer.)

 

Ye, never said it's not a matter of choice. I just believe there should be a meaningful choice. But on the other hand, a lot of the annoyance comes with the horribly under-developed UI and the fact that we only have 2 center bars. Combine that with the lack of Macro functions and you got yourself set for pain. In Rift, you could simply macro some of the skills into one button, same for WoW. Both also had more UI Elements, you know? There is just not enough feasible Hotkeys for every useful skill right now.

 

20% les***** is 20% less damage (asuming the Mobs have an accuracy of 95% might not occur on some bosses - dont know) If the skill is useless it seems like you got positioningissues. Try to charge a ranged enemy grapple a second - flamesweep to aggro the melees then oilslick the whole bunch. Tell your teammates to let you pull if that doesnt work.

 

Please, do not assume that I have position issues here. I have played Tanks in WoW & Rift (and some other games like AoC, WAR etc.) and I do certainly believe that I have enough experience as it is. What I'm saying is that the skill is not really powerful and is massively random. Besides, I had no issues dying as of yet to anything with a healer at my back, I rarely even see a use for the skill, except for fights where the Boss is basically made up of a few different enemies. And even there it feels really sub-par. And telling DDs to let you pull only work in guild groups. Try that in a random with some moron who thinks his Marauder is a tank.

 

This skill is to position your targets accurate for you aoe´s. You can bundle or line them up for Flamthrower... 45secs is quite ok - not great I agree but since it wasnt created to be a aggroprimary aggroskill thats fine.

 

This skill is to grab the flag carrier and make him feel a lot of pain Fact is, it's pretty iconic for the class and it's sad that some random dart replaces an iconic skill as the primary aggro thingy. Than again, it does not make a lot of sense to grab someone who is already near you, right? It's just that sometimes you have enemies a bit outside, but just enough to not be grapple-able (is that even a word?) to get them where you want to. It won't hurt to reduce the min range to 3m. All it means is that instead of waiting in PvP for someone to walk 10m and pull them back is that you can now fire it in melee range like some idiot

 

Show me one 5+ Mobgroup which hasnt a single ranged Mob a bit aside after you pulled it. Jump to that one hit him a bit Maybe some ranged skills on the rest of the group and jump back. Mobile tanking is quite funny and Swtor supports it. Play how you like to but you wont regret trying it.

 

Problems right now arise somewhat on single-target, jumping around is fine. It would just make a nice bonus in a boss fight - and once again to just punch someone in the face that is not 10 yards away with a rocket-propelled gauntlet Once again, do not assume I do not already do this. I just wish it was less restrictive in my choice of using a skill.

 

Its a free talant. And it saves the day almost every day. The juggernauts talent on the other side is treebased. Our "mirrior"skill (ok some strange and scary mirror) is oilslick. He got 10% ahead vs singlemobs and we got the aoe advantage. Kolto is much stronger for DD´s but after all its free.

 

Pretty wrong here. Juggernaut gets a free 30% more HP skill where we get Kolto. They just have to put some points into a better version of our Shield (40% instead of 25%), while they ALSO have Saber Ward as a class basic when we get the Shield. Basically, Juggernaut has A LOT better Talents right now. While I can understand that this choice was made due to Juggernaut being designed as a single-target Tank, I think that design choice will have to go away in the long run. Tanks should never be focused on one thing, they should be able to grab aggro AoE & Single target equally and be able to survive equally. This is not the case for SWTOR right now and it will lead to quite a few problems later on, if you ask me. The fact that there will probably not be enough tanks again, among those issues.

 

Use this skill with caution. Its like the standard rocket good to get the initial aggro but way to expensive to make it an aggrokeeper. I only use it as my heat drops to low. The range is a problem yes. But if you hit most mobs you do know that your charge/pull/positionating was good.

 

I can hit every mob with it, but try to keep the aggro when that crazy Sorc spams his Lightning where you just were and manages to get the aggro. We are talking about situations here, where you have to overheat because of people in random groups. And please, do not make a mistake, these groups are the primary means of running Dungeons. Guild groups are much more rare. There should be still a challenge while playing, instead of the snoozefest that is now WoW, but it should not be the challenge of managing the brains of other people Similar to what Rift had and still has, that was pretty damn good at launch =)

 

 

Mh.. I agree. Nice damage for the efford though. Lay it on a rare used button, use it on your own stuns and you might get used to it as your teammates do so. No big loss if you don´t but if you want to sqeesh the last bit out of the char, this is the skill to end with. (Maybe the standardrocket)

 

Not usable on a boss. Not useable on a player. Why the hell would I waste it on a weak mob, that I have to stun first? Waste of bar-space

 

 

We may discuss this skill again after you tested some of my suggestions. It is awesome. My heat barely goes above 30.

 

I'd like to see you do that against crazy aoe-spam people or DDs that can dish out massive damage single target and stay under 30 heat without them gaining aggro. It does not sound like you had either of these with you yet during Dungeon runs. I'm also still frustrated by it being **** in terms of how it feels and looks. So much actually, that I think about going with a Juggernaut. At least their level 40 Talent seems reasonably good and can be used inside any rotation reasonably without feeling like a sub-par situational skill.

 

Flamethrower - Is it frustrating sometimes? Sure. But should it be changed? Probably not. If you get used to the range on it you will very rarely miss. And if a mob is out of range you only have yourself to blame, since positioning is at the discretion of the tank.

 

It's a problem of early levels and tanking those instances, mostly. Not so much when you get Sweep later, ye.

 

Flame Burst - I actually LIKE that we still have to use Rapid Shots. We hardly ever get to use our blaster and it is an iconic part of the BH class. If we used Flame Burst instead, hell, I might as well dump my gun for a second flamethrower.

 

I'd totally trade the toy guns for a second flamethrower =P

 

Oil Slick - Not the greatest tanking CD I agree, but it is quite low in the tree as well. I feel like it does its job acceptably considering it only has a 1 minute CD. Just don't expect it to save your life. It's more of a use-on-CD-for-mitigation tool.

 

See above regarding Juggernaut & their skills.

 

Grapple - No minimum range would be a nice QoL change. Personally though, I am not a fan of moves that have increased threat and low damage. It just FEELS like I'm being useless. Plus, we already have two taunts, do we really need another? I'd hope I wasn't dropping aggro that much.

 

We have 1 single-target and 1 AoE taunt. I do not like that, I'm used to having at least 2 taunts from both WoW and Rift. Dunno about you.

 

Jet Charge - Where is the need for all this threat gen coming from? It works great as a gap closer, and like Grapple it would be nice QoL to have a low minimum range, but I wouldn't ever use this in melee for the same reason I wouldn't use grapple. I'd rather use an actual useful ability.

 

Equal tank viability against single and multiple enemies. A few bonus single-target thread skills should be added to make sure all of the tanks can at least equally do their job. Tanking should not be hard in terms of aggro, but in terms of managing skills, cooldowns, movement, etc, you get the idea. Again, see RIFT is you played it, those Heroic Dungeons on launch where the perfect example of how it should be done.

 

 

Flame Sweep - The range on this is quite low and I agree it would be nice if it was longer. The heat cost on it is fine, so long as you are not trying to spam it. Like Flame Burst, it just clearly isn't meant to be something we spam all the time. Hit it once to get AoE aggro and then single target. If you are being forced to use it every GCD then you should rethink the way your group is approaching the pull.

 

Again, overheating against crazy-brain DDs. You can not teach people to not be stupid, it's impossible So you have to counter-act it somehow to make life easier on tanks and heal.

 

 

Heat Blast - I really don't understand the Heat Blast hate. It is an amazing skill that costs 24 less heat than all your other single target abilities. When you hit 40 and get HB your play FEELS DIFFERENT. Heat control becomes much more fluid and dynamic. How can you really complain about an ability that does that? Considering it is the most heat efficient use of a GCD you have it is difficult to complain about its damage or threat generation, especially when both outclass Rapid Shots anyway.

 

Juggernaut can use their skill easily in their current rotation, we get a situational skill that only reduces the heat by 8. 8 out of 100 is still not much, no matter how you look at it. And it looks pretty pathetic. Sure, heat management gets better by the numbers, but it's about how it feels to use that skills as well as how useful it is all-around.

 

ALL classes have some derp abilities. When the players start complaining about this kind of stuff, it starts the nerf/buff/balance game and before you know it, this game turns into WoW where there is no challenge. Everyone just has a keyboard full of I WIN buttons, and that sucks.

 

There are some valid concerns raised here by other posters. Min/max ranges on certain abilities for example. But by and large, 90% of the issues voiced by the OP are really of no concern. To me, they sound like a wishlist from a former WoW player.

 

Nerf/Buff/Balance game is running since this game was created. I have no idea how you can even assume anything else. WoW has no challenge, because the entire challenge was taken out and you get everything stuffed in your ***. This is mostly due to other things than class mechanics, but they also play into it a bit, yes. Classes should NEVER have some derp abilities. That's just very, very bad class design from over 10 year ago.

 

If I had a wishlist, the combat system would be more like Jedi Knight or The Force Unleashed. And assuming that SWTOR is not another one of the WoW-Style of MMOs is just blind fanboyism. All SWTOR has currently going for it, is it's story and that it has lightsabers. Assuming it is otherwise superior, would be to fool your self. This is basically WoW, but we can try to improve the game without turning it into another mindless grindfest. Managing heat is fine, it just needs to be TUNED. As well as a lot of skills from every class (seeing how a lot of them are actually shared, but just work slightly different and look different).

 

 

 

Anyways, have a nice Christmas Eve

Edited December 24, 2011 by Mograth

[brazthemad]

I read this whole thread last night on an airplane, but was unable to respond from my phone for some reason. Anyway, I was laughing the whole time. I don't mean to be a dick, but BH is NOT a vanilla class ported from another mmo. This is a largely unique class that has to be taken on its own terms. This class is working beautifully imo. Tanking is awesome, and pvp is so much fun. Instead of looking at their abilities and trying to imagine how they relate to other skills you've seen in other games, try to look at them on their own terms and figure out how to best use them. I've been tanking and pvping like a boss in my shield tech spec, and once I get 50 and I can splash AP for retractable blade... I can't even let myself get that excited.

[Zironic]

I'm not high enough level to comment on many of these issues (I'm only level 21). However I'll agree that Flamethrower is annoying the **** out of me. I don't care about if it's balanced against Flame Sweep or whatever, but a channelled cone AoE that forces you to remain stationary is just a -HORRIBLE- idea.

[splooshIRL]

I just find the ranged vs melee thing in swtor to be very difficult.

 

you want to pull groups and allow for CC abilities....

 

if 2 ranged are standing next to something CC'ed .. you can grapple one, but what about the other one?

 

If everyone has to deal with the same problems that we deal with, then i won't complain. Making a game require more effort and skill feels rewarding at times. The argument should never be, "make this game easier!"

[Zironic]

I just find the ranged vs melee thing in swtor to be very difficult.

 

you want to pull groups and allow for CC abilities....

 

if 2 ranged are standing next to something CC'ed .. you can grapple one, but what about the other one?

 

If everyone has to deal with the same problems that we deal with, then i won't complain. Making a game require more effort and skill feels rewarding at times. The argument should never be, "make this game easier!"

 

In general the solution is exactly the same as in all other games. You use Line of Sight to force the ranged mobs into melee.

 

However in SWTOR there are some issues with that, specifically:

1: Ranged mobs appear to be able to shoot through walls once they've initiated an attack which seems to last up to 3 seconds

2: The game is really laggy all-round, which often leads to the mob running half-way to you, before suddenly starting to shoot you through the wall again.

[Mograth]

I read this whole thread last night on an airplane, but was unable to respond from my phone for some reason. Anyway, I was laughing the whole time. I don't mean to be a dick, but BH is NOT a vanilla class ported from another mmo. This is a largely unique class that has to be taken on its own terms. This class is working beautifully imo. Tanking is awesome, and pvp is so much fun. Instead of looking at their abilities and trying to imagine how they relate to other skills you've seen in other games, try to look at them on their own terms and figure out how to best use them. I've been tanking and pvping like a boss in my shield tech spec, and once I get 50 and I can splash AP for retractable blade... I can't even let myself get that excited.

 

It seems like that at first, but let's be honest here, there is nothing in the class design that we have not seen in other games. All we got here is a slightly different management of your energy due to it's reduced regeneration above 40%.

That is all, everything else we have seem in that kind of mechanic in other games and some of these even better. The class design is OLD (which means the way mechanics work, not that it's "stolen" as you seem to think I mean it. I'm strictly talking about ability mechanics in a Hotkey MMOs), it did not take up any of the interesting changes we've seen coming up for GW2 or even some of the changes made by Rift and WoW (or what they intend to make).

While the whole "Advanced Class" is nice, it's not fooling most people who have experience in this area. It was done for two reasons: A) claim they have more classes, B) not spending another million dollar on story for more classes. SWTOR is a Hotkey-MMO at heart, but it does not bring enough new things to the table to say it's in any way innovative or unique, except for it's excellent story-telling (similar to WoW with how accessible it was when it came out, doesn't mean SWTOR is bad for doing the same and focusing strongly on story or anything).

If they had made massive changes early in pre-production to the way mechanics work in SWTOR, they might have claimed "unique". All it screams at the current moment is "Story: Yay! Gameplay: Meh."

I do enjoy the game massively, but that doesn't mean it's a holy grail in any form or shape. It needs work, Bioware themselves probably know this (Space Combat, PvP, UI etc, we saw the list and there is probably a lot more). And since I doubt they wanna overhaul the Hotkey-based Combat for something else, they need to make the classes play more fluid and entertaining and they should focus on that really fast.

If they have to revamp talent trees and skills in the process, that's just the price to pay. You have to keep in mind that this MMO ate Millions of $$$. They need to get this money back somehow. And in it's current form, SWTOR does not stand as competition against GW2, which will probably be out around summer next year. Beta has started for the game and it is also not a p2p.

 

So, what does it all come down to? Basically, every one of the advanced classes should have a unique way they play and feel. They should make use of signature abilities more often, they should have a lot of ways to optimize your gameplay, while also performing "all-right" when you do not want to put your neck into min/maxing. Hell, make them have unique resources, right now it's mostly the same mechanic, just painted in a slightly different color. And for gods sake, make the talent tree abilities unique, awesome-looking skills that are still not op at all. It's all about how the class rotation flows, how the feel is (story-wise I feel like a real Bounty Hunter, lots of the Powertech skills are really, really signature skills (DfA anyone?). But they lack massively in their mechanics and it could be so much better in those terms).

 

 

Also, Powertech is massively OP in PvP right now as a Tank. You nearly never die, you can easily beat 3+ people with all your CDs and some Medkits, etc. It's bad****-crazy. And it needs a nerf. It's mostly due to our high damage output with Rocket Punch + Rail Shot.

 

In general the solution is exactly the same as in all other games. You use Line of Sight to force the ranged mobs into melee.

 

However in SWTOR there are some issues with that, specifically:

1: Ranged mobs appear to be able to shoot through walls once they've initiated an attack which seems to last up to 3 seconds

2: The game is really laggy all-round, which often leads to the mob running half-way to you, before suddenly starting to shoot you through the wall again.

 

Ye, noticed that too. Also, sometimes it's really **** to drag them LoS. By now we just work it this way: Tank takes big stuff, DDs burst down normal mobs in a guild group. In randoms ... oh god, I don't want to hurt my brain with that thought =)

 

 

 

So, ye. Basically I don't want to make the class OP, I don't want to force changes to make us stronger or the reduce the challenge of the game (I have yet to find that mostly, though), I want the class to become more unique, fun and entertaining, giving everyone more choices to play in different ways with their advanced classes. And also making sure that we don't always get annoyed by the same ******** happening all the time, which can actually lead to a reduced fun-factor while playing and will in the end probably lead to people quitting out of frustration or switching the game. Everything has to be balanced, I agree on that 100%. But I do not agree that we have to stick with old mechanics, when we could have so much more fun all together, by suggesting CHOICES that allows us to play our classes more like we all would like to play them. What I listed is mostly what annoys me to no end on the class and what I personally feel needs to be changed. Thus, I'm defending these. Others have different opinions, but a lot of times you guys forget to state what maybe you find annoying about the class right now in high-level or what you'd think would be a fun new way to play the mechanic to improve the BH. There are so many ways to improve the game without turning it into another mindless grindfest that feels like a job, that we should clearly make use of that and try to change the game to be better. You can ALWAYS improve your game.

 

 

Wall of text is a wall-like. I hope this makes you understand better that I really like the game and it's setting, but I'm not at all happy with how little innovation has gone into the class design itself. They have nice spell effects and all, to make it seem unique, but if look below the shiny, you are disappointed by it ;/

[pojectshadow]

If you feel that Jugs are better tanks then just roll a jug to see if they are. Personally i really enjoy BH tanks its a very fun class to play. Like i stated earlier the only thing that does need rework is shoulder slam and maybe a little more with oil slick. You cant compare Kolto overload with endure pain as Kolto overload is a class skill and endure pain is and AC skill. Same with our shields, ours is a class skill theres is AC talent. Edited December 24, 2011 by pojectshadow

[TeejayMac]

The only ting i would agree is with both shoulder slam, kolto overload, and oil slick being sub par skills. Everything else i think is perfectly fine. I rarely have threat issues and mainly because the mobs are very far spread out but i know i jug would an even harder time with such pulls. Free flame burst would be way to OP, we would just have to spam that one single skill to never lose threat. Any changes to grapple and jet charge would be to OP in PVP aspects. The main purpose as BH is to manage heat not to spam skills the faster we spam the faster we lose control of a fight. As long as we don't overheat threat is a non issue.

 

I agree with this guy.

[Mograth]

If you feel that Jugs are better tanks then just roll a jug to see if they are. Personally i really enjoy BH tanks its a very fun class to play. Like i stated earlier the only thing that does need rework is shoulder slam and maybe a little more with oil slick. You cant compare Kolto overload with endure pain as Kolto overload is a class skill and endure pain is and AC skill. Same with our shields, ours is a class skill theres is AC talent.

 

Already rolling one to try compare, but numbers don't really lie, you know? It's not the solution to say "well, play a different class" when there are clearly problems to fix.

 

I'd really like to know at what level you are currently playing at.

 

Tanks have to be equal in a lot of ways or you will just never use a certain Tank Class for encounters, because they are worse than others. That's the undeniable truth. It has happened before and it will happen again.

 

I can also very well compare the skills.

 

Shield? Is basically the equivalent of Saber Ward. We just get it 8 level later. And Saber Ward is still superior to our Shield, due to the way it works. I wouldn't wonder if it was very well possible to reach something along 80% Defense against Melee/Range 8Saber Ward base: 50% ... add gear, you get it) with that skill and good gear. And it also gives -25% Damage from Tech & Force attacks (which is basically any skill EVER). Sure, ours reduces it flat by 25% over the same time, but it doesn't even improve with gear. I'm pretty sure that's BETTER. Sure, 1m more CD, but when it comes down to it, you have a very high chance to not die compared to slowly dying.

 

Kolto Overload is ****. Everyone who tanked above a certain level can agree on that. Saying it's "for everyone" is no solution. Move Kolto to Powertech or make some kind of Powertech only skill that is equal to the 30% HP increase by regenerating lots of health. Buff it via Talents in Shield Tech for all I care. We already had some math on this and the skill is a joke. At 12k HP you reg about 180 HP every second over 10 seconds. That means you reg about 1800 Health (1 Boss hit) over 10 seconds. Again, 1m more CD, but only because we can reduce it by putting 2 points into a talent.

 

Endure Pain on the other hand gives you a flat health increase of roughly 3500 HP for a longer amount of time (2 talent points, again). That is at least 1 boss hit you can take more. This is clearly the superior "OH ****" button for a Tank.

 

Invincible gives a flat -40% Damage Reduce for 10s with a 3m cooldown. Our skill to compare to that is Oil Slick on a 1m CD, which gives -20% hit chance to mobs. Only 1m CD though and 18s duration. So, ye, we get 8 more seconds, but our skill is also highly random and relies on chance. We can not improve this skill by using better gear, because it's not based on our own stats, like Saber Ward.

 

 

And you still wanna tell me we are equal as Tanks? Seriously? What's your grand argument?

[Sjoko]

I vote for AoE Carbonite CC that breaks on Damage.

Works for me, I mean the aoe carbonite skill is already there, but the current 2.5 seconds duration is almost as long as the Global cooldown. Don't really care in what form or shape they get cc as long as it is there.

 

Was that way in Beta and make the class op as hell. Imagine trying to run from a Powertech and all he does is Grapple -> Jet Charge -> Grapple -> Jet Charge -> Grapple. And you can't do ANYTHING against him. That's why it's now a Tank talent. Though I think Grapple should be the Tank talent and Jet Charge for everyone, that would work, ye.

 

Don't really see the problem in being able to catch people either by using jet charge or grappling to chase people down. Adjust the damage on Jet Charge or make it not deal any damage just a way to catch up. Grapple in pvp doesn't work half the time, if you're lucky the target gets behind an obstacle and grapple doesn't work.

 

But one way to solve it is to put a joint cooldown on grapple and jet charge, or do as you say make grapple the skill to get as a talent. Jet charge makes too much of sense not to have as a basic skill. It's kinda like the warriors charge in wow.

 

I also think some re-balancing of dps vs health is in order in PvE. I actually get hand-cramps while playing SWTOR from button-smashing. And I'm a hardcore mass-consumption gamer (not just MMOs, pretty much any game. I'm a "You name it, I played it"-type of gamer), I tend to play around 8-11h when I got the time (because you can't do anything else in this gosh darn town). So, I have my share of button smashing, typing and stuff. I do not want to know how this kind of stuff is for untrained hands if they play for a long time.

 

To be completely honest, and it might be WoW's fault, swtor mobs are comparatively much more difficult and I believe you're right that dps vs health in PVE needs addressing. Or that the powertech dps needs to be upped.

 

That said though, I've changed class, Powertech is not for me. The most disappointing part though is spending all that time getting to level 49 and now I have to start all over again. At least I got slicing on it and it makes a ton of money doing that

[Mograth]

I'm currently twinking a lot, while only running Boarding Party solo from time to time with my BH to try and get my style gear (I start to doubt it even exists).

 

Got most classes going right now, except Assa & Operativ, was never happy with sneaking. Enjoying the Sniper a lot, Jugger seems actually a lot of fun, too. Not sure about Sorc Heal yet.

[Cegwulf]

You clearly have players that arent having most of the problems you are playing at your same level, they have been able to adjust their play styles to the class and are loving it.

 

While there are some of the abilities that I would also like to see changed, is this really the path we want to go down with SWTOR? The OP complains that SWTOR hasnt done anything innovative or groundbreaking in the MMO world yet wants to add macro's like Rift and other changes that he could use in WoW to make his life easier as a tank.

 

I dont want this game to become a 'hot key' game like Rift where you could put 4-5 abilities into one key, Rift sucked.

 

Maybe BH just isnt your cup of tea, move along this isnt the class your looking for... if these are the changes you want.

 

I agree with what someone said the three main skills that need to be changed are Shoulder Slam, Kolto Overload, and Oil Slick. But just about threw up in my mouth when someone else complained about grapple not working because his target LoS'ed him.

[spadetite]

I laugh at you guys that think PowerTech Tank is OP in PvP. You obviously aren't playing against a good quality of people. All they have to do is keep you stun'd and CC'd and its GG. I have 307 expertise and 19.4k HP and I can usually run around tanking alot of people keeping them busy until they root me in place, then I have nothing for them but to wait until they burst me down.

[omgacow]

I dont want this game to become a 'hot key' game like Rift where you could put 4-5 abilities into one key, Rift sucked.

\

 

Because Hitting 5 different buttons is so much more enjoyable/immersive/better. I love these anti-macro arguments. "lazy" is not a reason to not want macros, I want to play my class to the fullest, and macros help me do that. You can have fun not getting invited to raids because you are "too harcore" for macros

[Zironic]

While there are some of the abilities that I would also like to see changed, is this really the path we want to go down with SWTOR? The OP complains that SWTOR hasnt done anything innovative or groundbreaking in the MMO world yet wants to add macro's like Rift and other changes that he could use in WoW to make his life easier as a tank.

 

I dont want this game to become a 'hot key' game like Rift where you could put 4-5 abilities into one key, Rift sucked..

 

When you can put 4-5 abilities on the same key, the problem isn't the fact you can macro, the problem is that your class design sucks balls. Those macros are functionally EQUIVALLENT with simply putting those 4-5 abilities on keys 1-5 and then pressing all the keys at the same time with your entire hand.

 

Rift had the brilliant design of making certain classes consists of nothing more then a bunch of instant nukes on various cooldowns, obviously people made macros that would shot the nukes in order of highest damage.

 

I'll repeat this again. YOU CAN MIMIC FALL-THROUGH MACROS BY ROLLING YOUR HEAD ON THE KEYBOARD.

 

For a better look at Macros and their gameplay effect, you should look at World of Warcraft. It doesn't allow fallthrough macros even though you can mimic them with /castrandom or just do it externally, either way it doesn't matter since most DPS rotations in WoW are too complex to be macro'd.

 

This is because they all depend heavily on keeping buffs/debuffs up or managing your energy resources, neither of which is macroable.

 

What we want macros for is not really putting all skills on the same key for facerolling, but rather so that we can more easily manage our hotkeys by for instance making the same keybinding do different things depending on if we target a friend or an enemy, keybind certain phrases so we don't have to retype them all the time etc etc