Swissbob Posted April 20, 2014 Share Posted April 20, 2014 (edited) /signed They only suck if you suck inb4 *****torm Click "Show" for said *****torm: They do suck if you suck, but they don't *only* suck if you suck. -They suck if you like objectives, instead of mindless fighting. No objective = No goal = No reason= No motivation = Boring. -They suck if you like there to be a chance for comebacks, instead of one team dominating every time. -They suck if you like there to be buildup and less twitch strategy, instead of instant fighting. -They suck if people on your team suck, which often screws you over even more than it does in a warzone, since each member is proportionally more important and there is less ability for you outpreform and to carry a team. -They suck if you like matches to be more than a few minutes long. -They suck if you have a role- unbalanced team, which is much more common than in warzones as with less player slots comes less chance you'll get a Tank/Healer. -They suck if you don't have a full team, which will screw you over more than it does in warzones since 3/4 is a bigger piece of the pie missing that 7/8 is. -They suck if you like variety, as every arena functions the same, especially compared with the variety in the warzones. -They suck if you are under geared, even more in warzones since being good in a fight is all that's important here, unlike in Warzones. -They suck if someone on your team is undergeared, which is worse than warzones for the above reason.. -They suck if you like close games, as Arenas are much less likely to be anywhere close than warzones. (In almost all my arenas, I've only had 2 where the fights were actually close.) -They suck if you like gathering/competing for Medals, as they come so quickly you can't possibly keep track of them as you're getting them, and have to have to scroll up in chat box to read them between rounds, in addition the amount of medals you get is also more closely related with how well your team does and less related with how well you do, which brings me to my next point.... -They suck if you like to have individual success, even if your team does not. In warzones this can happen, you can lose but out preform most/all of the opposition. In arenas.... almost never, if ever. -They suck if you want to accurately measure your performance. Very similar to above point, it's almost impossible to measure how good you are/did, as your scores are so much more based on team performace. Yes, this occurs in warzones, but not as much. -They suck if you value communication but don't play as a premade, as unlike warzones, it's very hard to communicate any precise plans without voice chat since most of the strategy is based on twitch/reaction strategy. Speaking of premades, -They suck if you don't like to fight premades as a non premade, as you're more likely to encounter a full premade in Arenas as one 4 man group is much easier to form than two 4 man groups needed for warzones, and one 4 man group in a warzone with 4 random members is less complete than a 4 man group in an arena. -They suck if you like seeing full 8v8 combat, instead of a less impressive 4v4. They also suck if you hate Baron Deathmark. If you disagree with every single one of my points, (as many are nitpicky and/or arguable) and absolutely love Arenas, (and if you do, hey, more power to you, each player likes his own slice of the game ), the OP's idea would not hurt you at all, as Arenas would still be there, and it might even help you! All he's advocating for is a choice, to play whichever you prefer! You would see more players in Arenas who are experienced in them, enjoy them, and can actually hold their weight, rather then players who don't want to be there, don't try, and give up after the first round. Arenas are fine faster dailies. And now the "Arenas=Fast Comms" argument.... I like to play PvP because I have fun, not because I want Warzone Commendations. As I think most people do. (Honestly, how do you think someone would recommend the PvP to their friend, "It's a lot of fun", or "You get a lot of Warzone Commendations?") *self-righteous rant incoming* Yes, I know, I'm not really applying the context of a player with several alts all trying to get their dailies done as you are probably thinking of, but that situation is not most PvP players. Most PvP players are students/adults who get home and only have an hour or so to relax with SWTOR, and want to play good PvP, the way they want. They should have the choice to play what kind of PvP they want, and if they don't want the wambamoverinaminute action of Arenas, they should be able to do choose warzones. Anyway, that aside, I don't like to see the Less Fun for More Comms is a Good Thing mentality, because if that is the most popular opinion and is pursued by the Devs, you would see less fun PvP interactions that give out more commendations (go figure), which is not a good thing for the game in my oh so humble opinion. If I take this nightmare hypothetical to the extreme, you might as well even see Instant Comms for credits, or worse, Instant Comms for Cartel Coins. Of course that won't happen, because the devs and most players would say the goal of the game is to have fun, not to get Warzone Commendations. And I know, you're just saying you like arenas, but I'm using your post to issue a preemptive strike against the many others who would use this view to fight against an Arena Toggle. Ugh this is still being discussed. The reason we can't separate queues is because regular wzs will become ghost towns. People will only queue arenas to get their dailies because they are so much faster. I know that the people complaining about this like planting their sniper on a platform and shooting things, but most people who have more than one alt would rather get their dailies/weeklies over with and move on. Omg, this garbage again.... if they allowed people to opt out of certain wz's the queue times would go thru the roof... SWTOR doesn't have the server population to handle it... Also the reason you get arena pops is because less than 16 people are in queue. No no no, not separate queues. A Toggle. The options would be: Unranked Warzones and Arenas or Unranked Warzones or Ranked Arenas (Ideally there would be a Ranked Warzone/Ranked Warzone and Arena option too, but that's another Thread for another day) This way, all would be played. They wouldn't become a ghost town, in fact they would be even more common as some players are queuing for just them. Players who are queued for "Unranked Warzones" can still play with players queued for "Unranked Warzones and Arenas"... it's not creating a third separate queue, it's just letting you pick which of the 2 queues (that exist now) you want to enter in to. And besides even if it *was* a separate queue and this was a problem, isn't quality better than quantity? Wouldn't you rather have fewer PvP with more players who care, are having fun, are trying, and are more likely to know what to do than more PvP with more players who are disinterested, give up, don't care, and aren't having fun? I hope I'm not just being woefully optimistic about the MMO population... Does the majority really want: Quantity of Comms and Queue Pops over Quality of matches and Teammates? Regardless, it doesn't matter. All that a Toggle would do is give the Player choice. No matter what the MMO/SWTOR crowd wants, it should have the choice. That's a good thing. (Oh god, What am I saying? lol) Player Choice is something I advocate for in all aspects of the game, in every game. If it's TL;DR, the moral of the story is this. Quality of PvP > Quantity of Warzone Comms Quality of PvP > Quantity of PvP Arena Toggle = More Player Choice More Player Choice = A Game Made Based More on What You Choose A Game Made Based More on What You Choose = A Game More Fun for You Essentially, Player Choice is Good. Something I've said a Long Time Ago in A Thread Far Far Away Edited April 20, 2014 by Swissbob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foxmob Posted April 20, 2014 Share Posted April 20, 2014 They only suck if you suck inb4 *****torm they suck regardless of your skill because there's no matchmaking system in place. I kid you not: almost half the time I draw an arena, there will be multiple heals or multiple tanks in the match...but both will be on the same team. it's also frustrating that a 4m grp can end up in an arena against 4 random solos. I'm not saying separate the queues. don't worry. but it's a pretty frustrating scenario. on the plus side, I'll usually play through it cuz arenas are quick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MotorCityMan Posted April 20, 2014 Share Posted April 20, 2014 Use the quit option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swissbob Posted April 20, 2014 Share Posted April 20, 2014 (edited) Use the quit option. As a temporary solution.... eh. Yes, it "works", albeit frustratingly forcing you to sit through 2 SWTOR Loading screens. But it also much more importantly and more often than not screws over the remaining 3, causing a total of 4 unhappy players who were hoping for a fair and fun PvP experience. (Potentially even more if you count players on the opposing side who were hoping for a full team to fight, although I know many MMO players want fast and easy comms above all else, so I'm guessing that type of player frustration is a bit more rare ) Honestly, even in the short term, I'd just go through the arena. Even though I'm not a fan, it's more fun than loading screens that give you ample time to think about your poor 3 teammates getting clobbered by a full team because of your selfish cowardice. And at least at the end of the arena I get a few Comms. As a permanent solution.... No. The above happening every single time I and everyone who is not a fan of arenas queues for PvP and gets an Arena, for the entire future of SWTOR PvP, or.... The Devs instituting a simple Toggle somewhat soonish. It appears very clear to me which is the more favorable solution, for players who don't like arenas, for players who do like arenas, and even for the Devs. Edited April 20, 2014 by Swissbob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jayveezy Posted April 20, 2014 Share Posted April 20, 2014 My biggest issue is not having a healer when the other team does. It would just be nice if there was at least one healer on one team the game made sure to put at least one healer on the other team. I actually very much so enjoy arenas but when I load in and notice my team has two tanks and two DPS, and the other team has 1 healer, a sorc DPS/healer hybrid and two DPS, I am able to pretty much predict that we don't have a chance. That scenario happened twice in a row last night and I was sad. The mitigation myself and the other tank are able to do just doesn't quite make up for the heals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthMaulUK Posted April 20, 2014 Share Posted April 20, 2014 Ugh this is still being discussed. The reason we can't separate queues is because regular wzs will become ghost towns. . I think you have this the wrong way round. Arenas would be ghost towns. There's nothing to stop Bioware placing Arenas TOGETHER. So people can decide to Q for normal or ranked Arenas and leave those who wish to do 8v8 to carry on. They can do it, just look at GSF. When no one wanted to play it, they soon allowed people to Q for both GSF and PvP. Probably the worlds worst system designers in a long time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sithBracer Posted April 20, 2014 Share Posted April 20, 2014 (edited) I think you have this the wrong way round. Arenas would be ghost towns. No, I had that correct. Other than the 10 people that complain about them here, many people don't mind them at all. In fact ,I know many people who hate the new HB more than any arena. And of those many people, a vast majority does regs to get their dailies out of the way and get some quick comms. Even in a relatively quick wz you till have to play around 7-10 minutes. A quick arena, about 2-3. Not to mention arena queue times would be faster being that you only need 8 people. So someone how has 6 alts for example, would he rather do quick arenas or long wzs to finish his dailies? I think the answer is obvious. Edited April 20, 2014 by sithBracer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthMaulUK Posted April 20, 2014 Share Posted April 20, 2014 (edited) No, I had that correct. Other than the 10 people that complain about them here, many people don't mind them at all. And of those many people, a vast majority does regs to get their dailies out of the way and get some quick comms. Even in a relatively quick wz you till have to play around 7-10 minutes. A quick arena, about 2-3. Not to mention arena queue times would be faster being that you only need 8 people. So someone how has 6 alts for example, would he rather do quick arenas or long wzs to finish his dailies? I think the answer is obvious. Its not all about the dailies. Believe it or not, people also PvP when they have completed their dailies. You may like Arenas, others do not. Giving the player a choice is the way it should be. They do it for Operations, flashpoints but still fail to do it for a game format thrown in that no one wants. The only reason why Qs would/are longer is because whats left of the PvP community has been fragmented across 3 PvP styles. 8v8, GSF and 4v4. There is simply no reason on earth why players should not be given an option to CHOOSE how they wish to PvP. Edited April 20, 2014 by DarthMaulUK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swissbob Posted April 20, 2014 Share Posted April 20, 2014 (edited) EDIT: My post is very similar to the one above. In the interest of your time, unless you're stihBracer, you probably don't have to read it if you read the above post. No, I had that correct. Other than the 10 people that complain about them here, many people don't mind them at all. In fact ,I know many people who hate the new HB more than any arena. And of those many people, a vast majority does regs to get their dailies out of the way and get some quick comms. Even in a relatively quick wz you till have to play around 7-10 minutes. A quick arena, about 2-3. Not to mention arena queue times would be faster being that you only need 8 people. So someone how has 6 alts for example, would he rather do quick arenas or long wzs to finish his dailies? I think the answer is obvious. "Would he rather do quick arenas or long wz's?" Some people play to have fun, not to get warzone comms as fast as possible regardless of how much fun they are having. Some people have preferences of which type of PvP they enjoy, and these preferences go so far as not having fun with a certain type. Therefore, they would like to choose. Are there people who prefer Arenas? I'm sure. Luckily for them, there is an Arena only queue. Are there people who prefer Warzones? Definitely. Is there a Warzone only queue? No. And that's what the thread's about. Is forcing players to play something they don't like in order to have a chance at playing something they do like a problem? I would say yes. Is not forcing players to play something they don't like a good thing? I would say yes. If you think forcing others to queue for arenas and then subsequently quit immediately leaving an incomplete team to be crushed is a good thing.... okay.... You can have whatever opinion you want. However, I think players shouldn't be forced to play something they don't want to. That might not make sense to you. I hope it does. Edited April 20, 2014 by Swissbob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xinika Posted April 20, 2014 Share Posted April 20, 2014 @ Thread Title Sure, as long as there's an option to turn off warzones. I prefer arenas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sithBracer Posted April 20, 2014 Share Posted April 20, 2014 EDIT: My post is very similar to the one above. In the interest of your time, unless you're stihBracer, you probably don't have to read it if you read the above post. "Would he rather do quick arenas or long wz's?" Some people play to have fun, not to get warzone comms as fast as possible regardless of how much fun they are having. Some people have preferences of which type of PvP they enjoy, and these preferences go so far as not having fun with a certain type. Therefore, they would like to choose. Are there people who prefer Arenas? I'm sure. Luckily for them, there is an Arena only queue. Are there people who prefer Warzones? Definitely. Is there a Warzone only queue? No. And that's what the thread's about. Is forcing players to play something they don't like in order to have a chance at playing something they do like a problem? I would say yes. Is not forcing players to play something they don't like a good thing? I would say yes. If you think forcing others to queue for arenas and then subsequently quit immediately leaving an incomplete team to be crushed is a good thing.... okay.... You can have whatever opinion you want. However, I think players shouldn't be forced to play something they don't want to. That might not make sense to you. I hope it does. Ok first off, I just want to say that I enjoy both arenas and wzs equally (even though my current favorite class is pretty bad in wzs). And yes I am sure that there are people (especially those on POT5 and TOFN) who would probably like doing wzs more than arenas. But considering you need 16 people to play and considering my experience on my server, I believe that wzs will be ghost towns and the queues will be a lot longer. While I don't wish that to happen, based on what I see I believe it will as many people who queue only do so to get their daily and then switch to get it on their alts, and others only queue to get the relic to use for PvE. Do I believe that people should have the freedom to choose what they want? Of course, but for that we need x-server queues, because aside from maybe one or two servers, we don't have the population to handle that. Arenas aren't that bad, they are quick so just get them over with and move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MooTheCosmicCow Posted April 20, 2014 Share Posted April 20, 2014 (edited) 3 que buttons........ 1st for either of the two huttball maps 2nd for 4v4 ranked 3rd for the remaining wz maps Totally omit 4v4 non-ranked as there is no reason to do it non-ranked except to get a fast loss done for your daily. You can make it so you can select and thus que for just one, any two, or all 3 of the que types above. Que times wouldn't change much since the 4v4 arena people generally are queing ranked anyway. Edited April 20, 2014 by MooTheCosmicCow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MidichIorian Posted April 20, 2014 Share Posted April 20, 2014 (edited) No, I had that correct. Other than the 10 people that complain about them here, many people don't mind them at all. In fact ,I know many people who hate the new HB more than any arena. And of those many people, a vast majority does regs to get their dailies out of the way and get some quick comms. Even in a relatively quick wz you till have to play around 7-10 minutes. A quick arena, about 2-3. Not to mention arena queue times would be faster being that you only need 8 people. So someone how has 6 alts for example, would he rather do quick arenas or long wzs to finish his dailies? I think the answer is obvious.Trust me, it would be dead. Even the mindless drones you refer to when you talk about getting the daily out of the way wouldnt queue (out of curiosity, what are they going to do with their comms?). There's nothing preventing BW from implementing a system similar to GF but they have the metrics and know that it would be dead too. Feel free to google every poll on the topic.It's like 90-10 in favor of 8 vs 8. Edited April 20, 2014 by MidichIorian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devilk Posted April 20, 2014 Share Posted April 20, 2014 no debate. Its simple facts that arena wins are 90% based on comp. Something premades are good at putting together, and can control. Also huttball shouldn't be excluded from premades either, but there should be some WZs where PUGs do not have to worry about getting matched with a premade, or vice versa How many premades do you think actually throw their premades together based on comp? I can think of like one guild that is so tryhard that they require the best gear and the best comp before going into reg warzones. And they still manage to lose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swissbob Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 Ok first off, I just want to say that I enjoy both arenas and wzs equally (even though my current favorite class is pretty bad in wzs). And yes I am sure that there are people (especially those on POT5 and TOFN) who would probably like doing wzs more than arenas. But considering you need 16 people to play and considering my experience on my server, I believe that wzs will be ghost towns and the queues will be a lot longer. While I don't wish that to happen, based on what I see I believe it will as many people who queue only do so to get their daily and then switch to get it on their alts, and others only queue to get the relic to use for PvE. Do I believe that people should have the freedom to choose what they want? Of course, but for that we need x-server queues, because aside from maybe one or two servers, we don't have the population to handle that. Arenas aren't that bad, they are quick so just get them over with and move on. Okay. I understand the misunderstanding. I don't know if you read my first post (the very long one), but I'll rephrase what I wrote there to try to explain why I don't think Warzones will be a ghost town if the choice is given. In fact, I *know* they won't be. Adding a toggle does not increase the amount of queues. I can safely say it is *impossible* for Warzone queue times to increase if a toggle was added... It is only possible for Arena queue times to increase. Let me explain. Right now, for Unranked, you can only queue for both warzones and arenas simultaneously. There is one queue. Adding a toggle, would create the option to either: queue for both simultaneously, (as it is now) with the addition to choose to only queue for war zones specifically. It's not creating an either-or situation such as: Warzones *OR* Arenas (What you think I'm talking about) It's creating an and/or situation: Warzones *AND* Arenas, or Warzones (what I'm actually talking about) Therefore, if you wanted to queue for Arenas, you would also be queuing for war zones. If you wanted to queue for just Arenas, then you would queue for Ranked Arenas, which already exist, of course. So it's actually impossible for Warzone times to increase, it's only giving the option for them to decrease. And besides, even if it was an either or that I was talking about, which it isn't, they still wouldn't be a ghost town. How can I know this? We can tell that the ability to queue for Arenas only wouldn't vastly imbalance the population of warzones and arenas, because that option already exists, and it doesn't. Check my original post for a similar but slightly different explanation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sithBracer Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 Okay. I understand the misunderstanding. I don't know if you read my first post (the very long one), but I'll rephrase what I wrote there to try to explain why I don't think Warzones will be a ghost town if the choice is given. In fact, I *know* they won't be. Adding a toggle does not increase the amount of queues. I can safely say it is *impossible* for Warzone queue times to increase if a toggle was added... It is only possible for Arena queue times to increase. Let me explain. Right now, for Unranked, you can only queue for both warzones and arenas simultaneously. There is one queue. Adding a toggle, would create the option to either: queue for both simultaneously, (as it is now) with the addition to choose to only queue for war zones specifically. It's not creating an either-or situation such as: Warzones *OR* Arenas (What you think I'm talking about) It's creating an and/or situation: Warzones *AND* Arenas, or Warzones (what I'm actually talking about) Therefore, if you wanted to queue for Arenas, you would also be queuing for war zones. If you wanted to queue for just Arenas, then you would queue for Ranked Arenas, which already exist, of course. So it's actually impossible for Warzone times to increase, it's only giving the option for them to decrease. And besides, even if it was an either or that I was talking about, which it isn't, they still wouldn't be a ghost town. How can I know this? We can tell that the ability to queue for Arenas only wouldn't vastly imbalance the population of warzones and arenas, because that option already exists, and it doesn't. Check my original post for a similar but slightly different explanation. That's a little unfair. What if I want to queue for just arenas? How about we make it toggle, just arenas or both? And that option doesn't exist. You can queue for ranked which doesn't finish your dailies and records stuff for everyone to see (not something casual players are too thrilled with). If it fulfilled your dailies and wasn't recorded, we would be seeing a different picture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swissbob Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 That's a little unfair. What if I want to queue for just arenas? How about we make it toggle, just arenas or both? And that option doesn't exist. You can queue for ranked which doesn't finish your dailies and records stuff for everyone to see (not something casual players are too thrilled with). If it fulfilled your dailies and wasn't recorded, we would be seeing a different picture. I would agree it's unfair. Imo, the more player choice, the better. I'm just using this model as this is the proposal the OP was making. However the situation can be adapted to fit anything, I think there should be a choice between unranked warzones and arenas, just as there should be for ranked warzones and arenas. I guess you're right, taking dailies into account, which would bring us back to the "Playing after your dailies" idea. Although I think we've both agreed more choice is good, the only worry is population. However I think you'd find it would be more balanced than you think... Said "casuals" are going to prefer warzones, with less responsibility placed on each player and more downtime/less twitch action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffrenBrek Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 Never going to happen. Get over it already, good lord. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthMaulUK Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 The entire PvP Q system needed an overhaul and yet again it was a missed opportunity from Bioware. So either they can't be bothered or server numbers are really too low to support it now. But I think they are pushing more people away by not offering some kind of toggle to give players a choice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HandOfKane Posted April 26, 2014 Share Posted April 26, 2014 Never going to happen. Get over it already, good lord. So we should "get over it already, good lord" jsut because you say so? Gee, how can you argue with that logic... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SgtJeremy Posted April 26, 2014 Share Posted April 26, 2014 Arenas are quick and easy (must not make sexual reference, must not make sexual reference) and add variety to the PvP queues. I never liked them then I learned to PvP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthMaulUK Posted April 26, 2014 Share Posted April 26, 2014 Arenas are quick and easy (must not make sexual reference, must not make sexual reference) and add variety to the PvP queues. I never liked them then I learned to PvP Why do so many people miss the point. Its not about keeping Arenas, its about putting them where they belong - in their OWN Q. Since ranked is the same format as Arenas, those two should be clumped together, leaving 8v8 for those who want to. Simple as that. I joined a game today with just seconds before it started - clearly others left before I joined. I felt bad leaving them as 3v4 but I will not play Arenas until they add some kind of match making that actually works. I've seen games with 3 healers, 4 healers, 4 tanks, it goes on and it just highlights Biowares stupidity again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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