DPS Meters...

[Masturomenos]

Why do you want DPS meters ? Is it for Epeen ?

 

As long as the enemies die whats the problem ?

 

Say all the bad dps. If you dont want a dps meter dont use it why should people who want one not et it bcause you dont want one? Anywa if u dont want a dps meter your not in a group or guild thats progressing. If progress matters you want it no matter what. Dps meters are a must like combat text, guild banks, etc. Why is it wrong to know your playing correct?

[Yazule]

I personally don't want the addons. They breed Elitist attitudes and standards among raiders and create cookie cutter builds just to try to keep up. Where is the fun in everyone playing the same build?

 

We have the tools in-game to do what is being asked here. Find Elite mob A with 30k health, and time how long your rotation takes to down him. Switch up gear and build if necessary, and repeat. Don't you think some of the features were left out for a reason? To create a different type of community from the standard MMO clones. If they don't like it or it is unbearable they can go back to their former MMO. Ultimately it is Bioware/EA's decision.

 

The same goes for macros. They create inattentive button mashers, who are destined to fall asleep pressing their one button.

 

firstly, there are NO ADDONS in this game they have already stated that, anything added will be a part of the game not a third person program

 

secondly, there are NO TOOLS IN GAME right now to in ANY way figure out "what happened" ... you die to a boss, no log to see what hit you, what damage type it did, or how much it hit you for

 

I can live without a parse, real time dps on my screen isnt important to me, but a combat log is required to improve individual and group performance. Knowing what damage type is killing you allows you to know what buffs to get what debuffs to use, etc...

 

you say "switch gear and build if necessary ... how do you know what you need to switch to with no information on what you did or how you did? Are you just saying randomly change your gear til you find something that works? Sorry but that is a deal breaker for most gamers... "hey guys lets go wipe on SOA 100 times randomly switching gear until we figure out what works?" dumb

 

Sadly in the end we one shotted 3 of 4 bosses last night in the hutt raid with no intel or info on any of the bosses and half of our raid was not geared that well. So really, we dont need the stuff because the game is that easy.

 

People will clamor for more challenge, then they will give it to us, then we will need a combat log. All a parser does is make a combat log move in real time to make life easier for people so I can do without the parser but a combat log is required.

 

I do not want an "easy" game and once they make it sufficiently difficult we will NEED a log to know what killed us and what we are doing wrong, maybe a boss has 80% reduction in a damage type, no way to know that without looking at a log and saying "wow those hits are way lower than they should be, maybe i should use something else"

 

This aint UO where pvp was so open and fun that you didnt care about the pve, this is a PVE GAME first and formost, which is an "achievers" game and achievers require certain features.

 

but maybe this isnt an achievers game, maybe it is an easy game, in which case me and most of the people i know will play out each class for the storyline (like a single player game) and move on to something challenging. Maybe they only have a year or two shelflife for this game... i hope not.

[gloryhunterprime]

For me personally I like to be able to know if we are going to clear a boss as we get up to it. If I am rolling with 2 DPS pulling sub-optimal numbers I like to be able to either call of the group or not spend hours wiping on a boss that we all understand the mechanics to but cannot kill.

 

People say that at the end of the day all that matters is if the boss dies, but the problem is that it is impossible to determine why the boss is not dying. Great example is the 3 boss in Hutt Hospitality. If you don't have the required DPS you cannot kill him, even if you do the Puzzle correctly. You can sacrifice an addition DPS to moving the puzzle pieces but you run into the issue that you don't know which DPS to switch because you have no metric to compare them on. I know people that have sub-optimal gear but are able to pull substantially better number than another person.

 

A DPS meter gives one the ability to objectively judge DPS on their skill and not the number of purple pixels they have.

 

As a DPS I want it:

 

1. I can know if I am improving my rotation

2. I can know if the spec I am utilizing is more or less efficent

3. I can know the balance of stats that give me the best results

 

As a tank I want a damage meter so that:

 

1. I can know if I need to ask my DPS to change or change out

2. I can know what abilities and mechanics I can ignore if any

3. I can get an idea of how much my damage needs to go up to avoid aggroing (assume threat ~30% my damage)

 

If DPS meters are implemented people would have to be responsible for their damage numbers just like a Tank and healer are responsible in a group. Yes some people will be ***** and might kick people for have "low" DPS be for the most part I would use to build a solid friends list of people who are competent. I understand that you want to run "your" spec and rotation and that it is how you have fun. If your spec does competitive DPS I woul never ask you to change. All that I ask is that you not take up my time running a non-nonsensical spec that causes us to hit enrage timers, uses a tanking stance as a DPS or other foolishness that hinders my ability to enjoy my play time.

 

2.

[Dharagada]

For me personally I don't particularly needed or want an in game dps meter.

 

That being said being able to have a combat log to parse after fights would be nice.

[Sprinkipunk]

To be honest, I don't want to have a DPS meter or add-ons in general. There are many reasons - SWToR is already the fourth MMOPRG I'm playing (and no, I don't change it every month I'm still playing game X actively, game Y, I only quitted game Z completely), so I suppose I've seen a lot of examples.

 

Reason 1:

DPS meters are never accurate.

I've seen cases where players asked other players why their DPS is that low. But actually the "low DPS-player"'s DPS weren't that bad, he just avoided AoE damage, used crowd control, etc. - the problem is that some players simply don't get it that it's way better to avoid and making a little less DPS than annoying the healer too much or dying almost instantly because everything they see is numbers.

Not all players might think like that, but I've seen too many bad examples.

 

Reason 2:

It destroys the community. Seriously. As already mentioned, I've seen a few games and different communities and I have to say that DPS meters are..well, "poison" (I'm not sure if you can say that in English - as you might have realized, I'm not a native speaker).

I really can't stand players posting them all the time, asking other players "ZOMG WHY ARE YOU SO BAD????????" and worse - even if I'm not the one on the last rank, but it's simply annoying. See reason 1 as well

 

Reason 3:

Honestly, I would feel sorry for the Bioware Customer support. If ToR had damage meter, I'm pretty sure some players would wirte tickets like "OLOLOLOL buff class X", "NERF Y PLX", "Your game is sooooooooooooooo bugged, the damage of *insert random attack here* isn't recorded properly, fix this or I'll cancel my subscription, I'm paying for this game, etc." "player XY has less DPS than me but won item 123"- and many other things which would be censored here in the forums.

 

I don't want to be offensive or something, there are nice players as well who use damage meters - these are just the experiences I made over the years in different games.

 

And honestly - I love this game! I don't want any changes (well, apart from the auction house and maybe new content from time to time - but this would be off-topic ).

Bioware has done a great job and I really appreciate this - not many games can compare to this.

 

Thanks for reading!

[Hermanlee]

To be honest, I don't want to have a DPS meter or add-ons in general. There are many reasons - SWToR is already the fourth MMOPRG I'm playing (and no, I don't change it every month I'm still playing game X actively, game Y, I only quitted game Z completely), so I suppose I've seen a lot of examples.

 

Reason 1:

DPS meters are never accurate.

I've seen cases where players asked other players why their DPS is that low. But actually the "low DPS-player"'s DPS weren't that bad, he just avoided AoE damage, used crowd control, etc. - the problem is that some players simply don't get it that it's way better to avoid and making a little less DPS than annoying the healer too much or dying almost instantly because everything they see is numbers.

Not all players might think like that, but I've seen too many bad examples.

 

Reason 2:

It destroys the community. Seriously. As already mentioned, I've seen a few games and different communities and I have to say that DPS meters are..well, "poison" (I'm not sure if you can say that in English - as you might have realized, I'm not a native speaker).

I really can't stand players posting them all the time, asking other players "ZOMG WHY ARE YOU SO BAD????????" and worse - even if I'm not the one on the last rank, but it's simply annoying. See reason 1 as well

 

Reason 3:

Honestly, I would feel sorry for the Bioware Customer support. If ToR had damage meter, I'm pretty sure some players would wirte tickets like "OLOLOLOL buff class X", "NERF Y PLX", "Your game is sooooooooooooooo bugged, the damage of *insert random attack here* isn't recorded properly, fix this or I'll cancel my subscription, I'm paying for this game, etc." "player XY has less DPS than me but won item 123"- and many other things which would be censored here in the forums.

 

I don't want to be offensive or something, there are nice players as well who use damage meters - these are just the experiences I made over the years in different games.

 

And honestly - I love this game! I don't want any changes (well, apart from the auction house and maybe new content from time to time - but this would be off-topic ).

Bioware has done a great job and I really appreciate this - not many games can compare to this.

 

Thanks for reading!

 

1. If people are abusing a tool, blame the player, not the tool. Otherwise we'd be sending guns to jail instead of murderers.

 

2. Jerks will be jerks regardless. Again, blame the players, not the tools

 

3. Complainers are going to complain. They already have in this game without meters.

 

All of your complaints deal with players, not meters themselves. A poor player shouldn't prevent good players from having the tools they need to succeed.

[Bobbyboosted]

i just want a recount thing so i dont pull the aggro with my dps man... its annoying if i overdps or overheal... tanks sucks

[MetallicaRulez]

Why do you want DPS meters ? Is it for Epeen ?

 

As long as the enemies die whats the problem ?

 

Shockingly, some people play games for different reasons. Some people enjoy just playing for fun or roleplaying or whatever. Others enjoy min/maxing. Min/maxing is not possible without damage meters or a combat log.

[Slant_DK]

Reason 1:

DPS meters are never accurate.

I've seen cases where players asked other players why their DPS is that low. But actually the "low DPS-player"'s DPS weren't that bad, he just avoided AoE damage, used crowd control, etc. - the problem is that some players simply don't get it that it's way better to avoid and making a little less DPS than annoying the healer too much or dying almost instantly because everything they see is numbers.

Not all players might think like that, but I've seen too many bad examples.

 

Reason 2:

It destroys the community. Seriously. As already mentioned, I've seen a few games and different communities and I have to say that DPS meters are..well, "poison" (I'm not sure if you can say that in English - as you might have realized, I'm not a native speaker).

I really can't stand players posting them all the time, asking other players "ZOMG WHY ARE YOU SO BAD????????" and worse - even if I'm not the one on the last rank, but it's simply annoying. See reason 1 as well

 

Reason 3:

Honestly, I would feel sorry for the Bioware Customer support. If ToR had damage meter, I'm pretty sure some players would wirte tickets like "OLOLOLOL buff class X", "NERF Y PLX", "Your game is sooooooooooooooo bugged, the damage of *insert random attack here* isn't recorded properly, fix this or I'll cancel my subscription, I'm paying for this game, etc." "player XY has less DPS than me but won item 123"- and many other things which would be censored here in the forums.

 

All of the problems you described can be explained by humans being ******es. Which is - as far as MMOs and the internet in general goes - how people are on the internet. People misinterpret DPS Meters because they are too lazy to think about why the numbers are, what they are or what they represent. The community is destroyed because they are ******es about it. And honestly, look at the forums, people are complaining about class balance already. You don't need a DPS Meter for that. Dieing to a stunning agent is enough of a DPS Meter for the whiners.

 

None of the problems above (People misinterpreting performance, being ******es about it and then whining about themselves not being strong enough/others being too strong) can be solved by ignoring numbers and praying that we never get to see them.

[Thankyjack]

I swore I would not post about this again, but I see so much misinformation. I will be short. If your guild needs or would use dps meters, not parses but meters, to progress, then you should disband immediately. The game doesn't need your kind and you know exactly what I mean.

 

The idea that some people would misuse them understates the truth in every mmo that has them. Only a very few people would use them correctly. To those good people, I would say that the benefits to dps meters is not worth their impact on the game. So many pretenders out there posting high numbers after a wipe when it was their fault we wiped to an otherwise easy mechanic.

 

Good raiding guilds can use parses, but they don't need them.

[longgrassgrows]

i just looked up epeen

[Kezrik]

The only people that don't want some sort of metric are either too lazy and have no interest in excelling and are hoping to be carried based on the fact that they can't be bothered to learn their class properly (most opponents fall into this category) or the people that are just absolutely terrible at doing well regardless of how hard they try.

 

And truth be told I'd rather take the second person when we actually get said metric. Quit being a burden to those around you. Yes it's a game and shouldn't be taken too seriously but some modicum of effort is required. Is it okay for 1 guy on a basketball team to not hustle and try his or her best?? No. Same applies to cooperative gaming.

 

The problem with a damage meter is that damage doesn't show everything. If I am constantly slicing droids so they stay out of the fight for 60 seconds while my DPS counterpart just keeps blasting away, guess who is on top of the damage meter? In this case, the "lazy" guy is the one who doesn't bother to CC, interrupt, or perform other utility when he has that chance, yet he is "seen" as the more competent player on a damage meter.

 

For another example, as a Gunslinger, if I shoot my armor reduction shot and my DPS counterpart just blazes away with DPS skills 1, 2, and 3, he will do more damage because of my choice (which is the correct choice), but by your metric I will be seen as having "no interest in excelling".

[MetallicaRulez]

I swore I would not post about this again, but I see so much misinformation. I will be short. If your guild needs or would use dps meters, not parses but meters, to progress, then you should disband immediately. The game doesn't need your kind and you know exactly what I mean.

 

I have no idea what you mean. Are you saying that using meters to determine spell usage, dispels, standing in fire, etc is not beneficial? Parses do the same thing, but the information is not as readily accessible and often isn't posted until the raid is finished.

 

Well, either way, plenty of VERY good guilds (my WoW guild included) use meters properly and have benefited heavily from their usage.

[Zothlar]

I swore I would not post about this again, but I see so much misinformation. I will be short. If your guild needs or would use dps meters, not parses but meters, to progress, then you should disband immediately. The game doesn't need your kind and you know exactly what I mean.

 

I swore I wouldn't post here again too, but your post is full of misinformation. You claim that guilds shouldn't need a meter for progression. However, in a thread asking about finding information for dps min/maxing and specific damage info for rotations you said:

 

For raiding? No way to tell. The information just isn't above the level of speculation.

 

In one thread you very clearly state your understanding that necessary information isn't available, while in this thread you claim that people shouldn't need meters (that provide that info incidently).

 

The idea that some people would misuse them understates the truth in every mmo that has them. Only a very few people would use them correctly. To those good people, I would say that the benefits to dps meters is not worth their impact on the game. So many pretenders out there posting high numbers after a wipe when it was their fault we wiped to an otherwise easy mechanic.

 

Good raiding guilds can use parses, but they don't need them.

 

This is just ridiculous hyperbole. I have played with hundreds of people in raid situations and most of them understand how to correctly use a meter. As for the "impact" on the game there is absolutely ZERO negative impact. I said this in another thread and it bears repeating here:

 

If you have been treated badly by someone "because of the dps meter" you have brought it on yourself in two ways. 1) you joined a group that was motivated by performance and 2) you failed to perform well."

 

Nobody can make you feel bad about your terrible dps unless you join a group that cares about performance. Some people are jerks about it. They will be jerks whether or not there are meters.

 

If you don't like meters don't use them, and don't group with people who do. Please try to understand that if you don't care how badly you play, and you join a group of people trying to have fun by excelling at the game, that YOU are the problem, not them.

 

If a high performance player joins a group of RPers showing off costumes and tries to get them to post DPS, then you can complain about meters "ruining the community".

[Vyrion]

I love it when people talk about how meters don't show "everything" it's so adorable. Because you know, recount didn't track kicks, and damage taken. Nope, never

Seriously have you people ever actually used a meter? Or did you just get kicked from a ZA PuG once for doing 7k so now you're mad?

 

Meters are important, and yes, they are important for legitimate reasons, let me list a few

 

1.) Approximating boss mitigation to know how much accuracy actually helps

 

2.) Approximating boss armor for melee theorycraft purposes

 

3.) Comparing dps builds in actual fights as opposed to idealized theorycraft which doesn't account for how a given build might have lower theoretical dps but higher practical dps because it is easier to execute while watching mechanics.

 

4.) Identifying if a given player is doing too little dps given their gear/class/raid role. Oh and by the way, if you have a mixed role like you're a ranged doing the panel puzzle on the Karraga's boss and you throw some shots/spells too you won't be chastised by any good guild for not topping meters, trust me.

 

Oh and yeah "as long as the boss dies blah blah" but what if the boss doesn't die? This game actually relies on some fairly tight hard enrage mechanics, and if you hit one it helps to see why and whose fault it is. But I guess nobody wants to be responsible for their performance, it "hurts their self esteem" or something.

[Psiwuff]

On the subject of damage meters, I come from WoW and used to do normal mode raids. I didnt get awfully far, partly because our guild exploded and didnt get together much, but I got a good experience of cataclysm raiding.

 

As such, my stance on dps meters mostly is that it is a tool to learn your class better. Yes, there will be elitist guilds who deny particpation based on DPS, but then again, if you want to have fun with your game, you shouldnt join those guilds anyways, since they are elitist in more way than just looking at your DPS parse.

 

That aside, interface mods, dps and threat indicators are nice, and they help players and imho are essential little tools for harder group/raid content where you cant just faceroll. I for one would like to know how much more pain i can dish out before I get a face full of boss mob because I overdid it. And I would also like to know if changes to my rotation and playstyle actually make me play better or worse as my DPS role.

 

Imho, let players have their tools if they want them. If you dont need them/want them, dont use them. But try not to keep them from people who actually ahve a desire to use - not abuse - those tools.

[DarkqDJK]

I hope they will never add DPS meter or Target Dummies

 

<<< WOW that way

 

I already see gen Chat : LFM DD do not reply under 3k dps...

[TipsyDrow]

1. If people are abusing a tool, blame the player, not the tool. Otherwise we'd be sending guns to jail instead of murderers.

 

2. Jerks will be jerks regardless. Again, blame the players, not the tools

 

3. Complainers are going to complain. They already have in this game without meters.

 

All of your complaints deal with players, not meters themselves. A poor player shouldn't prevent good players from having the tools they need to succeed.

 

Your camp keeps saying a good player needs these tools to succeed. I disagree. A good player needs nothing more then a keyboard, a mouse and brain to succeed. I never played wow and I never will. I did however play DDO for quite a few years and never had dps meters or adons of any kind and we raided epic content just fine without all that stuff, so don't try to tell me you NEED this. You want it sure, but need? No, no you don't. Combat logs are coming as bioware has already stated they are putting them in. Use them and be happy.

[Khalma]

If your so for not having meters then don't use it, simple. Why fight something that will happen and needs to happen. Why shun others for there wants and desires who are you to say no to others.

 

Do you pay there bill on the game. No, there a customer just like all of you and they want a meter as do I.

 

Now I know for some this is a bad thing as your being carried and getting free loot and thinking ( hey we died 5 times on this boss but we killed him and got me some loot.. all I care about and I had fun because I was carried and got loot.. How about you guys huh?!!!) When in fact they shouldn't have wiped and would've found out that person was to fault.

 

Thus saving them headaches and time that we all know we DON'T like wasted. I can't tell you how many people I sit with for hours trying improve them. Some get great results.. some are just not good and that is fine. But yes that person is either in another group or is given more time to improve.

 

How is it elitist to say *Hey man your dps is showing you pretty low for a few fights tonight and your gear is well beyond what those numbers show, so lets work on it and see if we can improve*

 

I've been in some top 100 world guilds in WoW, Rift, FFXI never had that type of system but I played with Japanese so w/e. And never had anyone of my leaders or officers be complete ***** to people. We work with you and help you. Try to make your goofy hybrid spec work and make it max out, but if it sucks it sucks and well let you know it.

 

So this crying about possibly losing your hybrid specs is just stupid. I mean if you think specing into three trees is effective because you can tank, heal, dps at the same time or fill those roles you are sorely mistaken and need to rethink your gaming ability.

 

Devs don't design roles to be effective with hardly any points spent into it. Use some common sense, but again this world lacks it hardcore.

 

Now sorry for making this long winded but people need to realize that WoW was successful for a reason. There's that common sense kicking in. I'm not saying allow boss mods as THAT is what really killed WoW raiding for the most part, not damage meters.

 

Sorry some of you got hurt and couldn't get progression or see the content in a timely fashion due to your lack of skill or you group's lack of skill and effectiveness, thus making it to where you had to over gear on give me epics or just out level the content.

 

But I'm wasting my time as people here don't care about anything but themselves and just want to be carried as long as possible before there chased off another game for just being a horrible player. Your personal worth is one thing but ability to be effective and helpful to the guild is other. Unless your guild would like a cheerleader I guess.

 

I know my grammar isn't great and I don't really care, I just hope people get over this NO METERS OR MODS because this game needs to be plain and appeal to us who just play here and there. But you forget that I and many others pay as well and also WANT some of our demands met. Get over it people, until you pay our monthly bill I would suggest keeping your demands to yourself.

[CedricDur]

I hope they will never add DPS meter or Target Dummies

 

<<< WOW that way

 

I already see gen Chat : LFM DD do not reply under 3k dps...

 

 

You know, if you *are* that crappy and can't do your fictional 3K I wouldn't want you either.

 

This is what this whole argument boils down to. People want to faceroll and do things like spamming their Tracer Missile to 100 heat and then auto attack the rest of the boss fight but not have fingers pointed their way.

 

Good riddance. Casual is *NOT* equal to being crap.

[Fierze]

I hope they will never add DPS meter or Target Dummies

 

<<< WOW that way

 

I already see gen Chat : LFM DD do not reply under 3k dps...

 

Target dummies was the best thing wow ever did! I spendt loads of hours on them!

How can you say giving us a way to "train" is bad?

 

If we are both marauders with the same gear, and i do 5k dps and you do 2k.... Why the hell would anyone want to play with you vs me? Just because i can nuke high dps doesnt mean i derp in bossfight and dont interrupt.

Edited January 30, 2012 by Fierze

[Rehom]

I hope they do allow us to customize the UI and add in Threat and Damage meters because some people like modding their UI to make it unique and maybe like small UI for more room to see, if they dont i wouldnt be pleased but still play becuase its a game i enjoy

[Tetriarch]

Switch items. Repeat above. We had to do it in EQ1 without even a real combat log, and people still knew their class/rotation, and that was one of the hardest MMOs to date.

 

 

Correction: EQ1 IS the hardest MMO to date. Forced grouping for most classes beginning at level 12...hell, level 9 if you couldn't solo Kodiak's for their pelts. But you know what? THAT was the key to a great community. You had to group. There was no soloing to the level cap...unless you could root/snare/kite/dot a pack of mobs and only 1 class could do that. But that's why I hated WoW (and CoH)... Players soloing elite class mobs.

 

/ontopic

DPS meters weren't necessary for us MMO vets of the early games and I had no problem maximizing my DPS or maintaining my part of a 3 man CHeal rotation.

 

Damn, I just remembered an Army joke from Boot Camp: How many Drill Sergeants does it take to screw in a light bulb? 9, 1 to screw it in and 8 to tell you how hard it was when they had to do it.

 

Yeah, I'm that guy.

 

Respectfully yours,

 

MMO OG (Original Gamer)

[Darekar]

Why do you want DPS meters ? Is it for Epeen ?

 

As long as the enemies die whats the problem ?

 

that is exactly the problem. if the enemies do not die, you want to know why

[limmermanrz]

Well I have seen a lot of opinions and ill throw mine in as well just in case a dev decides to read this.

 

GIVE US DPS METERS and macros...