DPS Meters...

[Keeneyes]

I want to be part of a basketball team. However, I don't want anyone telling me how I should play (coaching me to improve). I like to dribble with the back of my hand (badly) and shoot underhanded (also badly) because it's fun and I don't need people telling me it's wrong and trying to make me do it their way (the techniques that years of experience have shown to optimize performance).

 

I also don't think statistics like points scored, rebounds, and blocked shots should be kept because I'm good enough to know that I'm doing just as well, if not better, than anyone else on the team without quantifiable measurements. Keeping statistics might reveal that I'm deluding myself so it's best if we leave them out.

 

Anyone who doesn't want me on the team is a jerk who takes the game too seriously (likes winning). Even though we lose sometimes (always) it isn't (is) because of my fun play style (terrible performance).

 

Also hammers and screwdrivers should be outlawed because people could hit people or stab other people with them. This relatively infrequent misuse with respect to their primary functions as important tools should be overlooked.

 

Nice! Sometimes putting things into a different perspective adds clarity and, in this case, hilarity. I think this is probably as direct a comparison as you're likely to get and it's spot on with how I feel about it.

 

If people want to play casually, there are always guilds that support that type of game play, but trying to hold other people back from playing the game the way they want to play it by denying them the tools for doing so is ludicrous. In the long run, obfuscation will just drive away people who want to play competitively. And if you think that competitive players aren't key to a game's success, you might want to think again.

 

Granted, there's a difference between competitive and obnoxious. However, you can't keep people from being obnoxious by denying them one piece of fodder for them to be obnoxious about. They'll find something else.

[Averix]

For all the people claiming to be elitist and not wanting to carry the unique snowflakes, act like one. Did you know those DPS meters are actually programmed by someone to do what they do? Did you know it does the math for you? Did you know you could actually do all of this yourself if you put in as much effort as you claim? Don't get on your soapbox and act like having a DPS meter and knowing that hitting 1-4-2-1-6 somehow makes you amazing. If you're so hell bent on being the best, do the work it actually requires to be the best. Quit being carried by programmers.

[Zothlar]

For all the people claiming to be elitist and not wanting to carry the unique snowflakes, act like one. Did you know those DPS meters are actually programmed by someone to do what they do? Did you know it does the math for you? Did you know you could actually do all of this yourself if you put in as much effort as you claim? Don't get on your soapbox and act like having a DPS meter and knowing that hitting 1-4-2-1-6 somehow makes you amazing. If you're so hell bent on being the best, do the work it actually requires to be the best. Quit being carried by programmers.

 

Did you know that there are accountants using computers to do their long strings of arithmetic for them? Did you know that if they were so good at math they could just spend the time it takes to do it with a pencil and paper instead of being lazy and letting some program calculate it almost instantly? If they are so hell bent on doing taxes they should do the math work themselves instead of focusing their time on understanding tax laws and figuring out how to use all the numbers the computer calculated.

 

Furthermore, why the hell are people letting cell phone companies carry them? If someone has a piece of information that they want to get to someone else across the country are they too good to carry it there themselves? Lazy lazy lazy.

[kpalais]

Nice! Sometimes putting things into a different perspective adds clarity and, in this case, hilarity. I think this is probably as direct a comparison as you're likely to get and it's spot on with how I feel about it.

 

If people want to play casually, there are always guilds that support that type of game play, but trying to hold other people back from playing the game the way they want to play it by denying them the tools for doing so is ludicrous. In the long run, obfuscation will just drive away people who want to play competitively. And if you think that competitive players aren't key to a game's success, you might want to think again.

 

Granted, there's a difference between competitive and obnoxious. However, you can't keep people from being obnoxious by denying them one piece of fodder for them to be obnoxious about. They'll find something else.

 

This. 10,000 times this.

[Hermanlee]

Did you know that there are accountants using computers to do their long strings of arithmetic for them? Did you know that if they were so good at math they could just spend the time it takes to do it with a pencil and paper instead of being lazy and letting some program calculate it almost instantly? If they are so hell bent on doing taxes they should do the math work themselves instead of focusing their time on understanding tax laws and figuring out how to use all the numbers the computer calculated.

 

Furthermore, why the hell are people letting cell phone companies carry them? If someone has a piece of information that they want to get to someone else across the country are they too good to carry it there themselves? Lazy lazy lazy.

 

Please stop! I have no more internets to give you!

[Bekkal]

I would be okay with them just inputting combat logs so we can at least parse some damn data. Guilds have been doing this since, what, RoK Everquest?

 

If the crybaby crowd is so afraid of add-on dps meters, surely they take no issue with enabling guilds to run general parses?

 

Do they even know the difference?

 

For all the people claiming to be elitist and not wanting to carry the unique snowflakes, act like one. Did you know those DPS meters are actually programmed by someone to do what they do? Did you know it does the math for you? Did you know you could actually do all of this yourself if you put in as much effort as you claim? Don't get on your soapbox and act like having a DPS meter and knowing that hitting 1-4-2-1-6 somehow makes you amazing. If you're so hell bent on being the best, do the work it actually requires to be the best. Quit being carried by programmers.

 

This guy, for example, does not realize that there is no combat log. If he knew there was no combat log, he would know that was he is asking is literally impossible.

Edited January 10, 2012 by Bekkal

[Averix]

Did you know that there are accountants using computers to do their long strings of arithmetic for them? Did you know that if they were so good at math they could just spend the time it takes to do it with a pencil and paper instead of being lazy and letting some program calculate it almost instantly? If they are so hell bent on doing taxes they should do the math work themselves instead of focusing their time on understanding tax laws and figuring out how to use all the numbers the computer calculated.

 

Furthermore, why the hell are people letting cell phone companies carry them? If someone has a piece of information that they want to get to someone else across the country are they too good to carry it there themselves? Lazy lazy lazy.

 

The difference is that you're demanding a service that is currently unavailable. I'm not sure about you but I would never let someone touch my taxes if they have to rely on a program to get them done properly. Don't try to put reason and logic into the fact that all you're doing is asking for a way that YOU can have access to information you obviously shouldn't have access to. Same goes for the guy that said it's "literally impossible" to do without combat logs, is this a joke or do you simply not understand what literally and impossible mean? The damage is still displayed on your screen. You want another shortcut by putting it into a combat log, it is however FAR from impossible.

 

If you can't handle the extra work it takes to do this properly without a program, you don't need to know it. This is the problem with DPS meters, they give the uninformed access to information they simply shouldn't have access to. I rather not see you back on the forums in two months after DPS meters are released bragging how the rotation you found online makes you uber. Also, relying on metaphors to make your argument seem sound only does the opposite. For example: The government doesn't post launch codes on television for a reason. It may make my point easier to understand to the masses but it has no relevance with actual DPS meters.

[kpalais]

The difference is that you're demanding a service that is currently unavailable. I'm not sure about you but I would never let someone touch my taxes if they have to rely on a program to get them done properly. Don't try to put reason and logic into the fact that all you're doing is asking for a way that YOU can have access to information you obviously shouldn't have access to. Same goes for the guy that said it's "literally impossible" to do without combat logs, is this a joke or do you simply not understand what literally and impossible mean? The damage is still displayed on your screen. You want another shortcut by putting it into a combat log, it is however FAR from impossible.

 

If you can't handle the extra work it takes to do this properly without a program, you don't need to know it. This is the problem with DPS meters, they give the uninformed access to information they simply shouldn't have access to. I rather not see you back on the forums in two months after DPS meters are released bragging how the rotation you found online makes you uber. Also, relying on metaphors to make your argument seem sound only does the opposite. For example: The government doesn't post launch codes on television for a reason. It may make my point easier to understand to the masses but it has no relevance with actual DPS meters.

 

 

Broken logic is far worse then using logic to ask the developers to add a useful tool to the game.

 

I wish I could downvote your post but the nicest I can be with an actual response is to say i have contempt and disdain for your post.

[AForgottenTome]

I do want a combat log to be added, so that parses could be made OUT of the game, to confer if strategies are working, or methods of attack, etc...

 

As a healer, I find players are more apt to pay attention to their surroundings when they don't have some silly meter to stare at, so an in game damage meter (imo) should NOT be added.

[krameriffic]

If you can't handle the extra work it takes to do this properly without a program, you don't need to know it. This is the problem with DPS meters, they give the uninformed access to information they simply shouldn't have access to. I rather not see you back on the forums in two months after DPS meters are released bragging how the rotation you found online makes you uber. Also, relying on metaphors to make your argument seem sound only does the opposite. For example: The government doesn't post launch codes on television for a reason. It may make my point easier to understand to the masses but it has no relevance with actual DPS meters.

 

Are you really hatching the philosophical argument that if you cannot bear the burden of creating the machinery yourself for fully analyzing the numerics of combat in this game that you do not deserve access to it?

 

Really?

 

Seriously?

 

Welp, you shouldn't be on the internet, because I'm guessing you don't grasp how it works. Probably shouldn't drive a car either, or live in a house, or operate a cell phone because I can utterly guarantee that that you don't know how to create or how any of these things actually work.

[Hermanlee]

The difference is that you're demanding a service that is currently unavailable. I'm not sure about you but I would never let someone touch my taxes if they have to rely on a program to get them done properly. Don't try to put reason and logic into the fact that all you're doing is asking for a way that YOU can have access to information you obviously shouldn't have access to. Same goes for the guy that said it's "literally impossible" to do without combat logs, is this a joke or do you simply not understand what literally and impossible mean? The damage is still displayed on your screen. You want another shortcut by putting it into a combat log, it is however FAR from impossible.

 

If you can't handle the extra work it takes to do this properly without a program, you don't need to know it. This is the problem with DPS meters, they give the uninformed access to information they simply shouldn't have access to. I rather not see you back on the forums in two months after DPS meters are released bragging how the rotation you found online makes you uber. Also, relying on metaphors to make your argument seem sound only does the opposite. For example: The government doesn't post launch codes on television for a reason. It may make my point easier to understand to the masses but it has no relevance with actual DPS meters.

 

6/10 You actually got some people. Almost had me if it wasnt for the "relying on metaphors doesn't help your argument" business.

[Keeneyes]

Don't try to put reason and logic into the fact that all you're doing is asking for a way that YOU can have access to information you obviously shouldn't have access to.

 

I don't know about your definition of the word "obvious", but it's not "obvious" at all that we shouldn't have access to this information. Other MMO's have exposed their combat logs and a large portion of the player base not only wants that functionality, but feels it is important to the game's viability long-term. If YOU believe that people shouldn't have access to that information, that's fine, but stop playing it off like this is some logical conclusion with only one answer because it's not.

 

Same goes for the guy that said it's "literally impossible" to do without combat logs, is this a joke or do you simply not understand what literally and impossible mean? The damage is still displayed on your screen. You want another shortcut by putting it into a combat log, it is however FAR from impossible.

 

Really? So, stopwatch in hand, you can write down each damage number and sub-second precision timestamp as it appears on your screen while doing an optimized rotation? Because if you're looking to truly calculate optimized combat rotations/priority, this is the sort of information you'd need. And you really think that's a reasonable solution?

 

If you can't handle the extra work it takes to do this properly without a program, you don't need to know it.

 

So, let me get this straight: your argument is that if something is tedious and impractical but still marginally possible, you should never look for a tool that shortcuts that process? So I suppose an accountant should never use a spreadsheet and we probably should never have even created computers. In fact, apparently the whole of human technological innovation is baseless. Honestly, as a professional application developer, your statement is so far beyond the bounds of the core philosophy of my day-to-day life that I don't really even know where to start.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Keeneyes

[silentwon]

OK you guys who dont want add-ons you guys are just gonna kill every new MMO that comes out cause of this issue,

This game probably has the best chance to succeed where all the other MMO's have not been able too all cause of this bogus notion of "I want to play the way I want to!" or "you just want to show your EPEEN",

You know what just for you guys they should make a game where there's no enrage timers,no AOE damage and just put a timer on when the boss is gonna die so all you have to do is run around hit w/e buttons you want just sit afk and let the other people do the work so you can chat with your friends or watch your movie,

Im sorry but this is the stupidest argument in the world.

Oh i will say unless the devs decide not to give a fair warning for the boss mechanics which i think they have done a pretty good job of something like DBM is not necessary or

macros.

[JeepeeB]

DPS meters can have their advantages but also their disadvantages.

 

Most of the time people use meters as a stick to beat when someone is below his/her standard.

And then kick them out of the group/raid.

the only comment people get is "ah you suck, blablabla, not good enough, blablabla," and then get kicked.

When a meter is used in this way then you are demotivating people to play the game since they just got kicked around all the time from group to group.

 

But using a meter in a positive way is also a bigger challenge on the part of the "i am the best, so i can judge you person"

Instead of going into the usual blabla and then kick someone, people can also talk to the "low performing person" and find out why he/she is not performing as if you think it should be.

Maybe it has nothing to do with skills, but just with wrong use of rotation/mods/skilltree.

So instead of using the meter as a beatingstick, you use it as a tool to help another player get better.

And that makes the "Mr. Knowitall" one of the cool guys, and gives the status he/she desperatly seeks on the server.

Being the best does not mean only being able to top any thinkable meter there is, it also means helping other people staying on the right path of their class.

[Seanhazz]

I personally don't want the addons. They breed Elitist attitudes and standards among raiders and create cookie cutter builds just to try to keep up. Where is the fun in everyone playing the same build?

 

We have the tools in-game to do what is being asked here. Find Elite mob A with 30k health, and time how long your rotation takes to down him. Switch up gear and build if necessary, and repeat. Don't you think some of the features were left out for a reason? To create a different type of community from the standard MMO clones. If they don't like it or it is unbearable they can go back to their former MMO. Ultimately it is Bioware/EA's decision.

 

The same goes for macros. They create inattentive button mashers, who are destined to fall asleep pressing their one button.

[Sath_Wishes]

I personally don't want the addons. They breed Elitist attitudes and standards among raiders and create cookie cutter builds just to try to keep up. Where is the fun in everyone playing the same build?

It's not that we got some Hybrid Builds or something, what you have to skill and not too, is pretty obvious.

Standards in Raids aka. a estimated amount of dps/heal ? What's wrong with that ? Better let a Boss go enrage 10 times because 1 is doing it wrong and let 7/15 suffer ? This is not even about kicking everyone below the elitist dps, it's about giving them tips and stuff. Elitist are really helpfull people.

 

We have the tools in-game to do what is being asked here. Find Elite mob A with 30k health, and time how long your rotation takes to down him. Switch up gear and build if necessary, and repeat. Don't you think some of the features were left out for a reason? To create a different type of community from the standard MMO clones. If they don't like it or it is unbearable they can go back to their former MMO. Ultimately it is Bioware/EA's decision.

For good Data's you would need to do this like 1000 times, cool story bro. Damage Meter is not even just for the Damage, i watch for dps, hps and even more important things like Interrupts etc.

 

The same goes for macros. They create inattentive button mashers, who are destined to fall asleep pressing their one button.

Play Sentinel and say this again, i bound so much buttons, my keyboards cry's every raid.

 

PS: Theorycrafting, Damage Meter and Spreadsheet's are pretty core for me, a good amount of the fun for me in a mmorpg, without it feels dumb... kinda

Edited January 12, 2012 by Sath_Wishes

[RiskyBiz]

I'm 100% for DPS meters. Here's my post from a shorter but relevant thread:

 

I think bad guilds and bad groups used DPS meters inappropriately-- looking at them as "Person 1 did x DPS, Person 2 did y DPS, therefore person 1 is better." If you want an addon that ruined games, talk to Gearscore.

 

Addons like Recount let you see not only how much damage was done, but how many interrupts were performed, how many CC's (and broken CC's), and other useful stats that could really give you a good idea of who needs improvement. For newer players, it was also useful to see where improvements can be made. If a similarly geared character of the same level and class is doing significantly more DPS than you, you might want to ask that person a few questions and see what you're doing wrong.

 

Recount was also extremely useful for healers, to see how much overhealing they were doing and particularly which spells were overhealing. I used this to develop new healing strategies when Cataclysm hit (and mana conservation actually mattered).

 

One last thing: If you have one DPS in your group that is doing virtually no damage (or 99% of their damage is autoattack), then yeah-- he needs to be talked to. MMO's are about downing content by working as a group, not 90% of the raid carrying the bad.

Edited January 12, 2012 by RiskyBiz

[GengisKahn]

DPS meters are needed, fast.

 

We need to be able to test our builds and how changes in stats work with them. I dont want to be happy with a mediocre way of testing that its not accurate enough, and i'm sorry, testing how much damage my skills hit and how long it takes x mob to down is a crappy way of testing them.

 

We need training dummies and meters.

[GengisKahn]

The difference is that you're demanding a service that is currently unavailable. I'm not sure about you but I would never let someone touch my taxes if they have to rely on a program to get them done properly. Don't try to put reason and logic into the fact that all you're doing is asking for a way that YOU can have access to information you obviously shouldn't have access to. Same goes for the guy that said it's "literally impossible" to do without combat logs, is this a joke or do you simply not understand what literally and impossible mean? The damage is still displayed on your screen. You want another shortcut by putting it into a combat log, it is however FAR from impossible.

 

If you can't handle the extra work it takes to do this properly without a program, you don't need to know it. This is the problem with DPS meters, they give the uninformed access to information they simply shouldn't have access to. I rather not see you back on the forums in two months after DPS meters are released bragging how the rotation you found online makes you uber. Also, relying on metaphors to make your argument seem sound only does the opposite. For example: The government doesn't post launch codes on television for a reason. It may make my point easier to understand to the masses but it has no relevance with actual DPS meters.

 

You dont know what you are talking about. What we need is an accurate way to test the damage, and for that we need THE SERVER to inform us WHEN do X ability did YYYY damage, not when it was showed in our screen.

 

Please stop posting if you dont have a clue about what you are talking.

[Dedd]

Wasn't it supposed to be 'Feel' the Force .. not 'Parse' ?

[CedricDur]

The epeen witty(less) line is oooooooold. It's a knee jerk answer. Yes, yes, I think we have all played in random pugs and had a player suddenly flooding our screen to brag at how much he did. So? We also have people using cars to drive to work or school and others that do drunken racing. We don't ban cars because of that.

 

The crowd that does not want meters reek of bad players who were chastised.

 

The whole 'player X had low DPS and was kicked out of the group/raid' is bad.. why? Why? Most things have requirements. If someone is doing badly it can be because of gear (sorry man, you need to gear up a bit more before you can join us again) or lack of knowledge of the game (sorry man, you're doing a quite a bit less than the same person in the same group with roughly the same gear. Go ask him a few questions). Without meters how do we know?

 

This, seriously, has been a staple on WoW. I played my hunter, I had new hunters joining and we would trade ideas and share rotations and gear ideas. I've seen some of those players with wacky builds because they liked those extra points in quality talents, without knowing that the same points would help them perform better somewhere else.

 

It's okay to have those quality talents when soloing or doing stuff that has no pressure, and the crowd who is against cookie cutter specs are right in saying they can play them if they want to, but not when it messes with the other 24 players.

 

The analogy above about basketball was spot-on (seriously, kudos), but to take it down further you *can* dribble with the back of your hand and you *can* shoot underhanded.... as long as you're doing a friendly game between friends.

 

Go for it!

 

But hard modes and Ops are the equivalent of trying to play in a minor neighbors league. You either decide you *really* prefer having no pressure and dribbling with the back of your hand, or you start jogging to build your stamina and throw a hundred shoots a day to ameliorate your aim.

 

Of course, for some people that's insane. It's just a minor neighbors league (HMs /Ops), why the hell should I be jogging (improving the rotation) and learning how to dribble properly (being more aware that Fire Really Hurts) just to have my fun in playing with friends and throwing my goofy balls which just so happen to go in well enough (soloing).

 

On the other hand your friends might still love you to bits but still weight down your goofy balls versus the athletic neighbor that wants in the team and who *does* jog and throw his hundred balls a day to improve his aim.

 

Actually, re-reading what I typed I think I can see where this is all coming from. People just want to throw their goofy balls and be out of shape within the first 15 minutes of the hour long game and not have fingers pointed at them.

[va_wanderer]

The problem with DPS meters is simple.

 

You have DPS meters, you can min-max. When players can min-max to that tight a rotation, devs then build content for an equally tight margin of error.

 

With that small a margin, cookie-cutter builds become the norm, and content becomes more and more marginalized in the process.

 

I'd rather just see them put hard modes in, perhaps even world-boss type spawns that vary depending on what "bait" you use- and forgo the DPS checks. I did my share of that drek in WoW, and it turned raids into number games.

[Dedd]

Players are always going on about how people should 'learn' their classes skills etc or as some say it L2P ..

 

To me that would be trial and error, working with groups, seeing how you can fit in and do your best with the skills you have chosen.

 

Not .. have some programme/guide that god knows how many others have followed/used tell you which buttons to press and in what order.

 

----

 

I remember one example, in City of Heroes where I was refused due to 1 skill choice (can't remember which), just told picking a different one at that time would have got a better result.

 

hmm .. ok, pay my sub and you can decide my build and yes then the answer to that is then usually something about groups etc etc

 

But no-one should have to pick skills to fit in around damage meters and bosses etc .. I agree, pull their weight but if their gear is lacking or they are not sure of their role ... no reason to leave them behind.

 

Sure it slows the group down but you pass on a bit of knowledge, give some pointers and hopefully they'll soak it up .. if after awhile you see they are ignoring any advice THEN you know to just block them and let others know they are leeching.

 

I've always believed in learning by experience but then I have more patience than a deal of players mmo's seem to have these days :-(

 

For those that do want meters, as it seems part of the argument is for the real difficult bosses .. maybe something inbuilt into the game that only became usable during those?

 

Would give help with the major bosses for those that wanted meters and then the rest of the game meter free to suit others but you should still have info that might help with rotations etc with a bit of working out.

 

swtor could advertise as being almost completely mod free unless up against (show x players vs x boss .. if they give consent) which could draw in some of the older gaming crowd

 

Btw .. has anyone seen swtor advertised on tv?

[Aeywyn]

Wonder how many of these threads there have been.. think i should start saving my posts and just copy-paste them.

 

Short version:

 

People who do not have the skill or ability to work out the best way of playing a class need a crutch to play this game. So they ask for the meters.

 

Good players do not.

 

 

There is no constructive reason for them and a lot of destructive reasons why they shouldnt be in the game.

 

If you are one of the people who dont think they can work out the best possible rotations on their own by doing some basic maths, join a guild and ask somebody who can.

[CedricDur]

Wonder how many of these threads there have been.. think i should start saving my posts and just copy-paste them.

 

Short version:

 

People who do not have the skill or ability to work out the best way of playing a class need a crutch to play this game. So they ask for the meters.

 

Good players do not.

 

 

There is no constructive reason for them and a lot of destructive reasons why they shouldnt be in the game.

 

If you are one of the people who dont think they can work out the best possible rotations on their own by doing some basic maths, join a guild and ask somebody who can.

 

 

::snicker::

 

And of course, without meters you can prance around without anyone to challenge your 'math skillz'.

 

How convenient.

 

Note that if you are that good then people will bow to you, not ask you to do better.

 

Oh wait, you're doing this for your less 'math skillz' enhanced brethren, right? Not for you.

 

Roight.

 

Funny how the meter crowd wants them to improve, and the non meter crowd says they are uber without them. As in, as long as there is no way to actually test that out.

 

Ah well, this is a round and round conversation that leads nowhere. Carry on with your 'I am *sure* I have great stamina and can run along with the best! No, of course I am not going to compete in the marathon, I do not need that to know I am good and do not need to improve'.

 

::snicker::

 

P.S. Get your addons straight. A DPS meter does not 'tell you which button to press'. It just calculates your damage along with everyone else in your group.

 

Peace out.