Can you do to knockback what you've done to AoE?

[Macetheace]

if you diknd't know, in 2.7, your AoE will cast at the feet of the target if you double tap it's hotkey. A single click will birng up the reticule to position where you want it to go.

 

in a similar way, have knockback abilities knockback on single tap, but if you double tap, it will do the damage but not the knockback

[VitalityPrime]

if you diknd't know, in 2.7, your AoE will cast at the feet of the target if you double tap it's hotkey. A single click will birng up the reticule to position where you want it to go.

 

in a similar way, have knockback abilities knockback on single tap, but if you double tap, it will do the damage but not the knockback

 

That is great news...for someone who uses a controller, like myself.

[MillionsKNives]

1) How is this at all related to what they did to AoE, other than adding double-tap as a thing?

2) How do you propose that they tell whether you meant a single tap vs. a double-tap, and do you not care about the delay in knockback activation that would result from it?

3) How do you solve the fact that many people press their abilities multiple times to make sure they go off?

4) What possible use would this have? Not only would you be putting a knockback on cooldown without actually getting the benefit of the knockback ability, but knockback attacks do pitiful damage. Abilities actually meant for damage would be a better use of your GCDs.

Edited April 3, 2014 by MillionsKNives

[ninjonxb]

if you diknd't know, in 2.7, your AoE will cast at the feet of the target if you double tap it's hotkey. A single click will birng up the reticule to position where you want it to go.

 

in a similar way, have knockback abilities knockback on single tap, but if you double tap, it will do the damage but not the knockback

 

I don't think those 2 are similar.

 

The AoE change is only a qol change in how you tell the AoE to cast.

 

What you are asking for is to actually change how an ability works.

[Macetheace]

1) How is this at all related to what they did to AoE, other than adding double-tap as a thing?

2) How do you propose that they tell whether you meant a single tap vs. a double-tap, and do you not care about the delay in knockback activation that would result from it?

3) How do you solve the fact that many people press their abilities multiple times to make sure they go off?

4) What possible use would this have? Not only would you be putting a knockback on cooldown without actually getting the benefit of the knockback ability, but knockback attacks do pitiful damage. Abilities actually meant for damage would be a better use of your GCDs.

1. that's exactly what i meant.

2. presumably if you pressed it once you meant to single tap, if you pressed it twice you meant to double tap, just like in the aoe sitaution.

3. the same with the aoe, do they press it many times? knockback abilities ALL have cooldowns. you don't spam them, that won't be an issue.

4. You can't see it? hey, in a group with lots of mobs, you want to use your AoE to do damage or heal, but you don't wanna knock back all the mobs and complicate things for the tank. Simply, double tap the button instead of single tap it. it may be pitiful dmaage or healing, but we use them for both, and in certain situations, whether grouped or solo, it would be nice to be able to decide whether you want the ability to knockback or not, no?

[Macetheace]

I don't think those 2 are similar.

 

The AoE change is only a qol change in how you tell the AoE to cast.

 

What you are asking for is to actually change how an ability works.

 

Where is the can-do attitude ninjonxb? and you could make the same argument on both your points for what happened to the AoE change. And I meant to call attention to using double tap to execute this functionality, there wasn't meant to be any other similarity intended or presumed.

[Eitetsu]

Why are you using a knockback for damage? They don't do that much. A knockback is a knockback for a reason. To, I don't know, KNOCK STUFF BACK or interrupt a cast. The minor damage is there for flavor more than function. If you're using it for damage, it sounds like you need to learn your class. Sorry for the cliche "L2P" line but that's all I'm getting from your explanation. Edited April 3, 2014 by Eitetsu

[ninjonxb]

Why are you using a knockback for damage? They don't do that much. A knockback is a knockback for a reason. To, I don't know, KNOCK STUFF BACK or interrupt a cast. The minor damage is there for flavor more than function. If you're using it for damage, it sounds like you need to learn your class. Sorry for the cliche "L2P" line but that's all I'm getting from your explanation.

 

To my knowledge the only time that any class actually wants to cast a knock back when they don't actually care about the knockback is sorc healers since it also does some healing in a pinch. (however I guess an argument could be made that if that pinch is needed maybe the knock back will actually help).

 

Outside of that knock backs shouldn't be part of your standard rotation. They are purely situational attacks.

 

The idea of using double clicking on abilities is an interesting one, but I wouldn't fight for it in this situation.

[Macetheace]

To my knowledge the only time that any class actually wants to cast a knock back when they don't actually care about the knockback is sorc healers since it also does some healing in a pinch. (however I guess an argument could be made that if that pinch is needed maybe the knock back will actually help).

 

Outside of that knock backs shouldn't be part of your standard rotation. They are purely situational attacks.

 

The idea of using double clicking on abilities is an interesting one, but I wouldn't fight for it in this situation.

 

sorc heals

sage heals

merc heals

commando heals

 

sage dps

sorc dps

shadow dps

assassin dps

commando dps

merc dps

GS dps

Sniper dps

Guardian dps

Warrior dps

Guardian tank

warrior tank

 

for a full comprehensive list

 

in fact everyone but sentinels, marauders, powertech's and vangaurds

[Malastare]

How does the client know if you single tapped or if you are halfway through the process of double-tapping?

 

The reason this works on targeted AoE is because the ability requires two actions to fire now: a key press, and a mouse button tap. The update will allow a second keypress to act as the mouse button tap if a target is selected.

 

For all of the knockback abilities I know of (wave, overload, pulse, boost...), the ability fires immediately after the button is pressed. Are you suggesting that the game wait 0.25 or 0.5 seconds before actually firing the ability in order to check to see if you're double tapping?

 

...because people seem to absolutely hate ability delay, and that's the only way I see to accomplish this.

[ninjonxb]

sorc heals

sage heals

merc heals

commando heals

 

sage dps

sorc dps

shadow dps

assassin dps

commando dps

merc dps

GS dps

Sniper dps

Guardian dps

Warrior dps

Guardian tank

warrior tank

 

for a full comprehensive list

 

in fact everyone but sentinels, marauders, powertech's and vangaurds

 

Are you trying to say that all of those classes use their knock backs as part of their standard rotation or are you listing the classes that have knock backs?

 

I can tell you that isn't true for Assassin DPS and I would be shocked if it was actually true for anything else.

Quoting dulfy:

Overload can be used if you want to do some instant damage against a group of targets that are immune to physics, and considering Lacerate’s awful damage output and high cost, sometimes it’s best just to Overload to do some quick AoE to help finish off some adds, rather than burning all of your force for little return.

Under 1.8 AOE rotation

It even says its part of your rotation if the enemy is immune to knock back.

http://dulfy.net/2014/01/08/swtor-madness-and-deception-assassin-dps-class-guide/

 

Knockbacks do so little damage that they shouldn't be used as part of your standard rotation. Most classes either have alternatives or you just deal with not doing good AOE damage.

[Macetheace]

Are you trying to say that all of those classes use their knock backs as part of their standard rotation or are you listing the classes that have knock backs?

 

I can tell you that isn't true for Assassin DPS and I would be shocked if it was actually true for anything else.

Quoting dulfy:

 

Under 1.8 AOE rotation

It even says its part of your rotation if the enemy is immune to knock back.

http://dulfy.net/2014/01/08/swtor-madness-and-deception-assassin-dps-class-guide/

 

Knockbacks do so little damage that they shouldn't be used as part of your standard rotation. Most classes either have alternatives or you just deal with not doing good AOE damage.

careful, dulfy's class guides are exactly that , class guides, using them as definitive proof of whether something is part of rotation or not, when it's a matter of opinion or good advise is not advised.

 

saying that, to answer you directly, I am not saying that those classes' knockbacks are part of their rotation. that is not the point. The point is not whether you use them regularly in rotation or not, its for when you do want to use them in a situation, that you have the functionality to decide whether your ability will knockback or not. You can control this. I think it's kinda neat that the player can choose when his knockback ability will apply the effect or not, and whether you're dpsing, tanking or healing, there are times when you want the damage or healing of the ability but not the knockback, this gives you the functionality to make it so. or do you disagree??

Edited April 3, 2014 by Macetheace

[MillionsKNives]

1. that's exactly what i meant.

2. presumably if you pressed it once you meant to single tap, if you pressed it twice you meant to double tap, just like in the aoe sitaution.

3. the same with the aoe, do they press it many times? knockback abilities ALL have cooldowns. you don't spam them, that won't be an issue.

4. You can't see it? hey, in a group with lots of mobs, you want to use your AoE to do damage or heal, but you don't wanna knock back all the mobs and complicate things for the tank. Simply, double tap the button instead of single tap it. it may be pitiful dmaage or healing, but we use them for both, and in certain situations, whether grouped or solo, it would be nice to be able to decide whether you want the ability to knockback or not, no?

 

1) Pretty weak comparison.

2) You realize that in order to press it twice you have to press it once first right?

3) No it isn't the same. Pressing the AoE button will bring up a targeting reticle even before you're off GCD. Knockbacks are instant and more likely to be hit multiple times to get the timing right

4) No I can't see it, knockbacks are the worst AoE damage you could possibly do. As for healing, I think the knockback-turned-heal was a terrible idea to begin with, but if people insist on using it then maybe they should get better awareness about when they choose to use it.

[MillionsKNives]

careful, dulfy's class guides are exactly that , class guides, using them as definitive proof of whether something is part of rotation or not, when it's a matter of opinion or good advise is not advised.

 

saying that, to answer you directly, I am not saying that those classes' knockbacks are part of their rotation. that is not the point. The point is not whether you use them regularly in rotation or not, its for when you do want to use them in a situation, that you have the functionality to decide whether your ability will knockback or not. You can control this. I think it's kinda neat that the player can choose when his knockback ability will apply the effect or not, and whether you're dpsing, tanking or healing, there are times when you want the damage or healing of the ability but not the knockback, this gives you the functionality to make it so. or do you disagree??

 

They have a really cool way for you to choose whether or not you apply the knockback effect already. It's called not using the knockback. Are you also going to request that if you double-tap stuns then it will only apply the damage? How about leaps too, and roots, and knockdowns.

[IsserWoloch]

Knockbacks are useless as anything but a knockback in 99% of situations, and the 1% is only there for that horribly contrived scenario someone is sure to come up with. Making changes like this to support a play style that should never happen isn't worth the dev's time.

 

PS. I mash the **** out of my knockbacks, and judging from the percussion section I can hear over skype sometimes, I'm not the only one.

[Malastare]

Even ignoring the lack-of-usefullness, the OP hasn't addressed the problems with the actual mechanism. There is no way to detect single-tap vs. double-tap without creating ability delay.

 

It seems pointless to discuss how often such a thing would be used when the mechanism itself is unusable as described.

[Macetheace]

Even ignoring the lack-of-usefullness, the OP hasn't addressed the problems with the actual mechanism. There is no way to detect single-tap vs. double-tap without creating ability delay.

 

It seems pointless to discuss how often such a thing would be used when the mechanism itself is unusable as described.

 

ok, what other mechanisms would you employ? at first i was thinking a shift + knockback would have the desired effect, but i opened with double tap because at least people would be familiar with what i was getting at.

 

i don't think a glyph system like what wow has is necessary at all, and the aim is not to permanently remove the knockback it's away that you can use the ability with or without it at ease.

[MillionsKNives]

ok, what other mechanisms would you employ? at first i was thinking a shift + knockback would have the desired effect, but i opened with double tap because at least people would be familiar with what i was getting at.

 

i don't think a glyph system like what wow has is necessary at all, and the aim is not to permanently remove the knockback it's away that you can use the ability with or without it at ease.

 

What happens when you have another ability bound to shift+[knockback key]? Or if the knockback is tied to shift already?

 

This just seems to me like a (problematic) solution looking for a problem.

[Halinalle]

sorc dps

 

I only use it to interrupt when I'm doing solo content (for example Section X gold mobs that heal themselves often)

 

shadow dps

 

Why I would want to lower the damage of already lowish dps class (middle tree is ok in bursts)?

 

commando dps

GS dps

 

Only if I get two or more mobs too close to me.

 

warrior tank

 

Isn't part of threat rotation or damage rotation

 

Special uses: protecting healer as dps (as a tank I have more brutal ways to do it)

 

How does the client know if you single tapped or if you are halfway through the process of double-tapping?

 

It's going to be setting under... you know, Settings. Just like Area Loot or similar QoL options you can choose if you want to use it or not. I will never understand clickers who click every button in their quickbars 3 times/s.

Edited April 3, 2014 by Halinalle

[MillionsKNives]

It's going to be setting under... you know, Settings. Just like Area Loot or similar QoL options you can choose if you want to use it or not.

 

Go back and reread what he said. You missed the question entirely.

[HelinCarnate]

ok, what other mechanisms would you employ? at first i was thinking a shift + knockback would have the desired effect, but i opened with double tap because at least people would be familiar with what i was getting at.

 

i don't think a glyph system like what wow has is necessary at all, and the aim is not to permanently remove the knockback it's away that you can use the ability with or without it at ease.

 

Many of us would just not employ any means of doing this as no fix is needed and it is working fine as it is.

[Halinalle]

Go back and reread what he said. You missed the question entirely.

 

Or maybe I just don't care enough. This would be bad feature since knockbacks are already too popular.

[Malastare]

ok, what other mechanisms would you employ? at first i was thinking a shift + knockback would have the desired effect, but i opened with double tap because at least people would be familiar with what i was getting at.

 

Shift is even worse. For example: On my Assassin, I have Overload bound to W (yes, I ignore the default binds...). Shift-W is "Mark Target with Purple Gear". Using Shift would mean that Shift couldn't be used for any keybinds, as it would have to always be free in case the key was being used for a Shift-modified ability.

 

So, getting to the heart of the matter, you're trying to apply delayed targeting mechanics to an instant-cast ability. No matter what you come up with, it's going to remove one of the more powerful aspects of the skills in question. I don't use my knockback to deal damage. I know it does damage, but the only time I purposefully kill anything with that damage is for the giggles of killing something with a weak attack. I know Sage/Sorcs get the ability to do group healing from it, but that's frankly a quirk of that one class, and not something that we should design a game mechanic to cater to.

 

Instead, knockbacks are use for (in order of likelihood):

• Knocking opponents back, putting enough distance between them and me that they cannot perform melee attacks.
  
• Pushing opponents off cliffs, catwalks or bridges. Or pushing them into fire, acid, friendly AoE, etc.
  
• Interrupting channeled or cast attacks
  
• Marking/Claiming a group of mobs to ensure I get kill credit for them (Area only)
  

 

So far, I haven't seen anything about this suggestion that improves any of those uses. In fact, it seems to make a few of them worse. If I'm trying to move an opponent to a particular place with Overload, I need the angle to be set by me, not my target's location. If I mis-time it, then its better that it fires in the angle I picked, rather than the unexpected angle to my opponent.

 

However, it's more important to note the new failure mode in the final example: You want to create a delay in cast time. That means that I have less time to interrupt my opponent, because I have to account for the delay needed to detect a double-tap, or check the position of a targeting angle, or whatever you suggest. (I'm ignoring the shift, because it's just unusable). No matter what you think of, if the ability does not fire immediately after I press the key, its a downgrade.

 

The only viable alternative I see is for Bioware to add duplicate abilities, for example: Overload and Overload (Targeted). The first would be the current, Instant cast version. The second would be a Sector/Reticle/Whatever targeted version that would either take a mouse click or a double-tap to cast.

 

But again, that would be a decent amount of work to solve a problem that doesn't really exist. This is one of the big lessons I was taught in college: Just because you can apply some new technique doesn't mean you should. It's only worth doing if it fixes an actual problem. Otherwise, its more likely to simply cause problems, waste your time, and upset whoever uses your software.

[Macetheace]

but it'snot always about fixing. Sometimes it's about enhancing, adding new functionality, new features, and new depth.

 

they could have left the AoE situation like it is in life, but they improved the functionality with the double tap. Some of these old rpg techniques of doing things have long since needed overhaul, glad they're doing that with aoe.

 

the ability to choose whether you apply the spell with a knock back or without it's knockback effect would also be a useful functionality, you can't say it is not because you don't use your knock back for damage, it's good that it does damage, and an old system might not be able to separate the two halves, but a new one can, it adds another dimension. I like that knockback does damage or healing. The idea of the ability may not primarily be knocking back as you're putting it.

 

From a lore perspective, the power of the force of a force wave/overload or a concussion surge is so damaging it knocks you down, one without the other does not happen except in the situation where the recepient is powerful enough to withstand the being thrown back, or, the caster is adept enough to use his ability with just the precision needed to hurt you but not throw you down. - from a lore perspective.

 

but it's from a game perspective i'm coming from, and as a healer or dpser during some situations, i just think if a way can be found, it would be cool to have.

 

I'm not saying you're wrong about it being unfeasible using a double tap because it changes the spell and the need to implement time delay, i'm saying they should try to find away to make this possible, i'm sure a way can be found for you to suppress the knockback dimension at will. but maybe it's not as easy as I think

[Malastare]

but it'snot always about fixing. Sometimes it's about enhancing, adding new functionality, new features, and new depth.

 

Then describe that. For the time being, you're just sort of dancing around a set of statements and claiming that people aren't understanding when they point out problems (rather like you were doing with your "ethics" thread).

 

You started talking about adding ability delay to all pushbacks in order to change targeting or to remove the primary utility of the attack. Neither of these things are widely popular. I haven't heard many people expressing a desire for attacks that do minimal area damage and nothing else. Neither have I heard people wishing that it was difficult to aim pushbacks, or that pushbacks cast time was too fast.

 

they could have left the AoE situation like it is in life, but they improved the functionality with the double tap.

 

That is an improvement that actually serves a need: In a fight, some of the reticle-based AoE attacks are difficult to use, as aiming a reticle is far slower than simply tapping the key again. It provides a way of using the current skill, in the same way its being used today, in a faster and more accurate manner by performing an optional technique.

 

You haven't yet described just what you're trying to improve, or what problem you're fixing. It looks more like you're applying the "solution without a problem" pattern. The double-tap is actually a good solution to the reticle aiming slowness. You seem to be trying to apply that to other areas, without actually first establishing a reason to do that.

 

In general, that's bad design.

 

the ability to choose whether you apply the spell with a knock back or without it's knockback effect would also be a useful functionality

 

How? Without the pushback, most pushback abilities are just weak area attacks with a pointlessly high resource cost. Why not suggest a stun that only does damage and doesn't stun? Wouldn't that be just as useful as a knockback that doesn't knockback?

 

So, again: What problem are you solving? Is there some common game situation where you wish you could do a pointless amount of damage to a group of nearby enemies while wasting a bunch of resources?