emp pulse?

[Zoom_VI]

Yeah, and that scout will likely eat a seismic or two in the process, especially if the bomber is being smart and weaving around a satellite (at which point your chances of getting the lock are essentially nil). The results aren't pretty.

 

But mines taste so good, kinda like chicken with a side of salami.

[Armonddd]

But mines taste so good, kinda like chicken with a side of salami.

 

You still have functional taste buds after biting into one of those?

[-Streven-]

Yeah, and that scout will likely eat a seismic or two in the process, especially if the bomber is being smart and weaving around a satellite (at which point your chances of getting the lock are essentially nil). The results aren't pretty.

 

Well....it works for me quite well. I'm not talking theoretical here. I don't go in close til the probe is launched. EMP clears out the immediate vicinity if needed while I take down the bomber. For sat weavers I typically just park around 4000m directly above or below the sat and let other people chase. I can't believe how seldom I get focused on just parked near the satellite and get more locks than I probably should.

 

I consider this build to be fairly specialized and it doesn't often result in the highest kill count but it's utility is immeasurable plus it's awfully fun to fly. Typically I'll get the most assists and will be at our near the top in damage. This ain't no scout to scout dogfighter but is great at shutting down both bombers and gunships.

[Verain]

I think you put too much emphasis on clearing a minefield. A good tier 1 scout will sabo probe the bomber and feed laser up its tailpipe for a relatively easy kill. The EMP burst simply makes this easier. The right way to clear a minefield is to kill the bomber.

 

I can 100% assure you that a bomber on a node will never eat a sabo probe unless bad. And a bomber floating his way, if intercepted, can be killed with any number of missiles.

 

I can absolutely assure you, without any reservation or hesitation, that your assertion that minelayers are easy prey for a type 1 scout is absolutely and completely false.

[Verain]

For sat weavers I typically just park around 4000m directly above or below the sat and let other people chase.

 

Again, this is on the bomber to fix.

[-Streven-]

I can 100% assure you that a bomber on a node will never eat a sabo probe unless bad. And a bomber floating his way, if intercepted, can be killed with any number of missiles.

 

I can absolutely assure you, without any reservation or hesitation, that your assertion that minelayers are easy prey for a type 1 scout is absolutely and completely false.

 

Never is a strong word. Again, I kill all kinds of bombers at all kinds of skill levels with EMP/probe scout build. I think they are absolutely easy kills anywhere other than on a sat but even there you can't outmaneuver me and I will lock you up with a probe in most cases.

[Armonddd]

Never is a strong word.

 

It's an almost entirely accurate one, though.

 

Sab probes have an enormous lock-on time. No one gets 2.5 seconds of clear LoS on anyone around a satellite. Hell, clusters have half the lock-on time, and they're still nearly impossible to land on someone who doesn't want to get hit, even factoring in retro thrusters. Bombers may be slow and clunky, but they're not going to eat a sab unless they want to.

 

The only time a bomber would ever want to eat a sab is if they think eating the missile is nicer than the alternative -- perhaps a gunship is covering the other side of the sat and they think they're looking at a conc for some reason. Even then, there's better things they could be doing.

[Morgrid]

It's an almost entirely accurate one, though.

 

Sab probes have an enormous lock-on time. No one gets 2.5 seconds of clear LoS on anyone around a satellite. Hell, clusters have half the lock-on time, and they're still nearly impossible to land on someone who doesn't want to get hit, even factoring in retro thrusters. Bombers may be slow and clunky, but they're not going to eat a sab unless they want to.

 

The only time a bomber would ever want to eat a sab is if they think eating the missile is nicer than the alternative -- perhaps a gunship is covering the other side of the sat and they think they're looking at a conc for some reason. Even then, there's better things they could be doing.

 

Or if the trade off for them eating the probe is for you to eat some mines.

[-Streven-]

I'm not making this up guys. Getting sabo locks on sat huggers is not so impossible. I'm NOT saying its easy but it does happen more often than I think you guys think.

 

Have either of you two tried this build out for any measurable amount of time?

[Verain]

Never is a strong word. Again, I kill all kinds of bombers at all kinds of skill levels with EMP/probe scout build.

 

Nonsense. If he's eating sab probes with any regularity whilst on a node, he's not good.

[Armonddd]

Yes. I loaded that build on my Nova because I wanted to try something other than my usual. The problem was, the bombers I was facing generally weren't bad, so I didn't get locks on them. The ones that were bad died more slowly than if I were using BLCs.

 

Sab probe is effective against bad bombers, no one's denied that. Unfortunately, against good bombers, it's just flat terrible.

Edited April 4, 2014 by Armonddd

[Verain]

Also, mostly pertinent to this thread:

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=9geumg&s=8

[Kuciwalker]

Nonsense. If he's eating sab probes with any regularity whilst on a node, he's not good.

 

Well if the bomber isn't on a node he doesn't really have a choice.

[Armonddd]

Well if the bomber isn't on a node he doesn't really have a choice.

 

Right, but that guy was saying he was getting sab locks on bombers that were camping nodes. Thus, bad.

[-Streven-]

Yes. I loaded that build on my Nova because I wanted to try something other than my usual. The problem was, the bombers I was facing generally weren't bad, so I didn't get locks on them. The ones that were bad died more slowly than if I were using BLCs.

 

Sab probe is effective against bad bombers, no one's denied that. Unfortunately, against good bombers, it's just flat terrible.

 

Well for one thing, I've never seen a bomber beat me to the sat when in a scout, so the obvious strategy is to intercept bombers before they arrive. As for my assertion that I do get probe locks on bombers much more often than never, I guess I'm just playing on a n00b server.

 

My point to this whole discussion is that EMP is a worthwhile component in combo with sabo probe. Mr 'bad' bomber usually doesn't get a chance to drop more than one mine whilst being probed and the EMP easily handles that one and anything else that might be in range. Effectively shutting down the bomber while it's being killed.

 

Light lasers inside of 500m do the the job nearly as efficiently as BLC are able to with a probed target. I think you guys are a bit too dismissive of builds that aren't your favorites.

[Armonddd]

Well for one thing, I've never seen a bomber beat me to the sat when in a scout, so the obvious strategy is to intercept bombers before they arrive.

 

If you're intercepting a bomber, you're coming at him from the front or the sides. Dfield BLCs double volley lol boom. Worst case scenario he's weakened but smart enough to not drop his mines until he gets to the point, and even then, I can probably pop him before he gets two seismics off. Probably.

 

My point to this whole discussion is that EMP is a worthwhile component in combo with sabo probe.

 

EMP field has synergy with sab probe, and not just against bombers. The problem is, you're taking it at the opportunity cost of BLCs, which are just superior to that combo. The reason I stopped playing my Nova was because the utility of sab probe + EMP field just wasn't as good as booster recharge + BLCs.

 

And again, against bad bombers, BLCs blow them up faster.

 

Light lasers inside of 500m do the the job nearly as efficiently as BLC are able to with a probed target. I think you guys are a bit too dismissive of builds that aren't your favorites.

 

My LLCs rarely seem to hit inside of 500m, whereas my BLCs always seem to hit. But let's ignore that -- let's say we're at 600m, where both lasers have great accuracy. Against a probed target, LLCs will do more DPS (assuming similar upgrades)... but in practice, the delta in time to kill isn't very big, and BLCs are far superior in every other situation (most notably, clearing out things other than bombers).

 

I don't think it's fair to say we're overly dismissive -- we make judgments off of trial and analysis, not favoritism.

 

Sab probe isn't the answer to bombers, and BLCs aren't a great answer either. Maybe EMP field/LLCs/rocket pods is a better solution -- I don't know. I will admit that I am far too used to BLCs with massive firing arcs, and find that other lasers are simply inferior for clearing non-bomber ships (partly because BLCs are overpowered). Still, base scout hull makes EMP field risky at best and suicidal at worst.

[-Streven-]

I will never argue emp/probe scout is more effective than BLC/cluster combo. You and I both agree that BLCs need a little tuning. You can easily make your case for the flashfire as the best build. However I really don't see other options as so inferior they aren't worth taking. I get bored every time I fly my flashfire that still isn't mastered. I still love flying my mastered novadive and mastered strikes even though they are often discounted as inferior ships.

 

To be honest I think heavy lasers are the best tool for clearing minefields. I think if more good pilots flew strikes with heavies you wouldn't see near the amount of bombers currently out there. But that's getting off topic again.

Edited April 4, 2014 by -Streven-

[-Streven-]

I should also note my suggestion for EMP changes on the nova would be slightly larger range and slightly lower cooldown.

[-Streven-]

Sab probe isn't the answer to bombers, and BLCs aren't a great answer either. Maybe EMP field/LLCs/rocket pods is a better solution -- I don't know. I will admit that I am far too used to BLCs with massive firing arcs, and find that other lasers are simply inferior for clearing non-bomber ships (partly because BLCs are overpowered). Still, base scout hull makes EMP field risky at best and suicidal at worst.

 

I don't care for rockets against bombers. They aren't terrible per say but rockets are tough against any moving target that is not flying straight. The deal with probes is it makes it very easy to literally park your nose inside a bomber's tail pipe and burn him down before he can crap more than a single mine.

 

As an aside, do you really kill bombers in a single pass with BLC and double volley clusters? I would have thought it takes at least a second missile volley.

[Armonddd]

I don't care for rockets against bombers. They aren't terrible per say but rockets are tough against any moving target that is not flying straight.

 

Yeah, that's the general problem with them. They're possibly better than most weapons at hitting a target weaving around a satellite, though.

 

I just flat out don't know of an ideal combination of weapons to take out node-hugging bombers. It's rather tough.

 

As an aside, do you really kill bombers in a single pass with BLC and double volley clusters? I would have thought it takes at least a second missile volley.

 

If I catch a bomber approaching the node, I can hit them a couple times in the head to head, though against skilled opponents I'm decelerating while they're boosting and thus don't get a whole lot of face time. I then have to peel off at a bit of an angle so I can hit them from behind while they approach the node. Often this is pretty close to enough, especially if for some reason they're not running the +hull/+shield components (especially overcharged shield). If it's not, I dodge the seismic they tend to drop on their way to the node and dogfight around the satellite -- generally at this point I'm only a shot or two away from a kill. If I get hit by an interdiction mine, though, it's GG; I have suddenly lost my enormous mobility advantage and am not likely to land the kill before their seismic recharges, which means I either stay on the sat (and probably die to the next seismic) or back off and re-approach (giving him time to set up on the node, which will definitely kill me).

 

Of course, a bomber on an approach vector to a node is generally a Number One Priority Effing Target, so Concentrated Fire goes on cooldown and crits can save me a lot of trouble.

[Delta_V]

Yeah, that's the general problem with them. They're possibly better than most weapons at hitting a target weaving around a satellite, though.

 

I just flat out don't know of an ideal combination of weapons to take out node-hugging bombers. It's rather tough.

 

 

 

If I catch a bomber approaching the node, I can hit them a couple times in the head to head, though against skilled opponents I'm decelerating while they're boosting and thus don't get a whole lot of face time. I then have to peel off at a bit of an angle so I can hit them from behind while they approach the node. Often this is pretty close to enough, especially if for some reason they're not running the +hull/+shield components (especially overcharged shield). If it's not, I dodge the seismic they tend to drop on their way to the node and dogfight around the satellite -- generally at this point I'm only a shot or two away from a kill. If I get hit by an interdiction mine, though, it's GG; I have suddenly lost my enormous mobility advantage and am not likely to land the kill before their seismic recharges, which means I either stay on the sat (and probably die to the next seismic) or back off and re-approach (giving him time to set up on the node, which will definitely kill me).

 

Of course, a bomber on an approach vector to a node is generally a Number One Priority Effing Target, so Concentrated Fire goes on cooldown and crits can save me a lot of trouble.

 

Yeah, the problem isn't so much bombers *attacking* a node, since you can, theoretically at least, deal with them before they get there. The problem is when you need to attack an enemy node (like if your team failed to capture a 2nd node at the start of the match), and the enemy bombers are already set up. In that case, it takes far more attackers than there are defenders to even have a chance at flipping a node.

 

And that (along w/ how well they stack w/ gunships in TDM) is my biggest complaint about bombers - they make Domination matches less dynamic and less fun. Most of the time, matches are decided in the opening couple minutes, based on whoever gets bombers set up on the nodes first. Then the remaining 2/3 or so of the match is just either boredom or frustration, depending which side you happen to be on. Prior to bombers, it was much easier to flip nodes (even w/ D-Field scouts hugging the satellites), and there were more come-from-behind wins, which help keep matches interesting and dynamic.

[Gavin_Kelvar]

My LLCs rarely seem to hit inside of 500m, whereas my BLCs always seem to hit. But let's ignore that -- let's say we're at 600m, where both lasers have great accuracy. Against a probed target, LLCs will do more DPS (assuming similar upgrades)... but in practice, the delta in time to kill isn't very big, and BLCs are far superior in every other situation (most notably, clearing out things other than bombers).

 

I've been trying to figure that out and I noticed something with the Improved Firing Arc and Tracking upgrade. Once you get it the tooltip for the tracking penalty states "X per degree, less 5%" Now I'm not sure whether that means the tracking penalty is 5% less than what it normally would be (so for a small tracking penalty such as 1% it would be a negligible amount) or whether it subtracts 5 from the tracking penalty (so until you get over a 5% tracking penalty you effectively have no tracking penalty).

 

Since the tracking penalty upgrade is required on BLC but not LLC if it flat out nullifies any tracking penalty that is 5% or less it might explain the 500m accuracy of BLCs since they have such a low tracking penalty to begin with and not everyone is going to pick that upgrade on LLCs.

[Armonddd]

I've been trying to figure that out and I noticed something with the Improved Firing Arc and Tracking upgrade.

 

Even disregarding tracking penalties, once you get closer than 500m, most lasers (as far as I know) flat out miss even when you're perfectly lined up with the target, as though they're suddenly taking like a -70% penalty to accuracy. BLCs seem to be the exception.

[Kuciwalker]

Even disregarding tracking penalties, once you get closer than 500m, most lasers (as far as I know) flat out miss even when you're perfectly lined up with the target, as though they're suddenly taking like a -70% penalty to accuracy. BLCs seem to be the exception.

 

I suspect it has something to do with the camera, e.g. tracking penalties are measured relative to your ship but the circle is drawn relative to the camera, and at very short ranges those are extremely different.

[Gavin_Kelvar]

Even disregarding tracking penalties, once you get closer than 500m, most lasers (as far as I know) flat out miss even when you're perfectly lined up with the target, as though they're suddenly taking like a -70% penalty to accuracy. BLCs seem to be the exception.

 

true, I was just putting the upgrade forward as a possible reason BLC may be an exception. It does seem to be something that needs to be sorted.