Pyrotech vs. Advanced Prototype

[Sosajoshua]

Three stacks of PFT already gets a surge bonus AND 90% slow. What you propose is a nerf.

Lower CD over crit chance on SC would work better.

We already get what, a 15% SC damage boost over other specs?

Immolate is fine, it has the same CD as thermal detonator.

 

-PTF used to give 70% slow instead of the 30% it is now (not calculating stacks in this). So yeah it was a drop from what it was.

-I could probably agree with lower CD of SC but considering the poor damage it gives I dont think a boost by 20% would hurt at all may even help make use a burst spec as I believe on paper we are supposed to be

-Immolate is part of rotation no matter how you cut it...its CD is a bit longer than it needs to be because we end up using a crappy move like FB over and over until its off CD

[TACeMossie]

-PTF used to give 70% slow instead of the 30% it is now (not calculating stacks in this). So yeah it was a drop from what it was.

-I could probably agree with lower CD of SC but considering the poor damage it gives I dont think a boost by 20% would hurt at all may even help make use a burst spec as I believe on paper we are supposed to be

-Immolate is part of rotation no matter how you cut it...its CD is a bit longer than it needs to be because we end up using a crappy move like FB over and over until its off CD

 

- PFT does get 30% per stack though, and before 2.4 it would only give the 70% slow on 3 stacks, and 0 slow on any less.

- SC does about 150dps in AP, because its very good damage for short bursts, where its usually tied with explosive fuel (+25% crit chance). The missiles are usually doing about 2.36k each (Dread Forged, so PvPers take it with a grain of salt), and there are 7 of them. Imagine how painful it would be in PvP if the missiles were even more powerful than that. Also a lower cooldown means we get to use our burst more often (AP PTs are only beaten in burst by Deception Sins...)

-Immolate has a 15 second cooldown... but so does Retractable Blade, Rail Shot AND Flamethrower. Its obvious that AP is a 15 second rotation, where the skilled people fit more rocket punches into it than the bads. And Flame Burst isn't that crappy... its still a good ~2.8k per hit pre crits (once again, Dread Forged gear). Also reducing the cooldown on Immolate could cause AP to be too bursty for PvP to work nicely.

 

Now, if I were to try fix AP, i'd do it with 3 simple steps:

 

1. Rocket Punch is now on a 7.5 second cooldown (either talent this, or give Pyro a talent for a further 1.5 seconds off the cooldown).

2. Flame Barrage is no longer RNG for flame burst. Instead, make it 2 stacks, each stack is an 8 energy reduction, and Flame Burst is 1 stack, immolate 2.

3. Power Loaders reduces cooldown on shoulder cannon by 15/30/45 seconds in addition to current effects.

 

Doing this has the following effects:

 

1. No more juggling the rocket punch around, makes PvE rotation more stable.

2. Rocket Punch freebie RNG is no longer RNG, making PvE rotation more stable and removing rapid shots.

3. Reduced Shoulder Cannon cooldown allows the bursts to happen more often, though only every second one now can benefit from explosive fuel. Increases sustained without really affecting PvP Burst.

 

And why am I trying to stay away from PvP Burst? Because PvP Burst is already pretty high, and I dont want to be nerfed.

 

Also, Side effect on no Flame Barrage RNG is a 4/20/22 hybrid for pyro/AP will work, where rapid shots is replaced with free rocket punches and AP is replaced with Triumph-giving Gut's. DPS is about the same as full Pyro though which is... yeah.

Edited April 13, 2014 by TACeMossie

[Sosajoshua]

ah I see you guys better defined your statements so I can definitely agree

[Gyronamics]

Now, if I were to try fix AP, i'd do it with 3 simple steps:

 

1. Rocket Punch is now on a 7.5 second cooldown (either talent this, or give Pyro a talent for a further 1.5 seconds off the cooldown).

2. Flame Barrage is no longer RNG for flame burst. Instead, make it 2 stacks, each stack is an 8 energy reduction,

 

Also, Side effect on no Flame Barrage RNG is a 4/20/22 hybrid for pyro/AP will work, where rapid shots is replaced with free rocket punches and AP is replaced with Triumph-giving Gut's. DPS is about the same as full Pyro though which is... yeah.

 

I could see the word hybrid coming the moment I read the lines about buffing an accessible core resource/proc ability but not tying it to a cell to counter it.

Edited April 13, 2014 by Gyronamics

[Brunner_Venda]

Another possibility is to address the lack of tech crit AP gets.

 

Good pyros should be getting 6% from their trees (proto cylinders and burnout), and with full brutalizer you should cap out at no less than 30-31%. That means almost a third of all tech attacks crit (flame burst, thermal det, rocket punch).

 

Meanwhile, AP sits at around 24-25%. Admittedly AP gets a free rail shot crit, but that doesn't help nearly as much as a better crit on immolate, flame burst, or PFT (which is all fire baby, it bypasses armor and can't be shielded).

[Aetrus]

That's why in my server's recent dueling tourney, the only AP PT entered in the PT/VG bracket won it all.

 

Also immolate hits harder than pyro's railshot, and energy rebounder is not to be underestimated.

 

I didn't see this until now. I took second place in that PT/VG bracket, running Pyro. The only reason I lost to the AP player in the final was because I red barred in both rounds and missed 3 GCDs from the poor latency. And I still had her at 4% when she won the first round. In the absolute bracket we met again and I won 2-0 and took second place overall behind a Saboteur Gunslinger, which is the anti-melee spec.

 

Pyro will always beat AP 1v1 unless the Pyro player screws up. And by that I mean if you throw your shield up too late and they frontload their damage, you take too much damage to recover, even with Kolto Overload. As long as you have Pyro Shield up for their Shoulder Cannon burst, you win. That being said, I think AP is better against stealth classes and provides more utility. So it doesn't need much help unlike some people suggest.

 

The only thing I would change is the Prototype Cylinders talent, buffing it from 1% Elemental Damage increase to 5%. For Pyro, I would rebuff the CGC dot damage. Maybe not to its pre2.0 level, but definitely harder-hitting than what it is now.

[Brunner_Venda]

Pyro does not need a buff, in fact just the opposite on the kolto overload. It's the class everyone uses to demonstrate why they need god-mode too. (Like juggs and their ridiculous enraged defense)

 

AP needs a little more reliable burst to be brought up to par with pyro. AP simply can't kill a healer except MAYBE in their shoulder cannon and explosive fuel burst phase. Pyro can, with smart interrupts, stuns, using the thermal det/rail/triple dot combo, and saving the pulls and stealth scan for the right moments. PVP is about burst, and AP doesn't have any.

Edited April 13, 2014 by Brunner_Venda

[TACeMossie]

I could see the word hybrid coming the moment I read the lines about buffing an accessible core resource/proc ability but not tying it to a cell to counter it.

 

Upon further testing, when the RNG gods smile upon you its still ~100 dps less for underworld-gear-with-78-mainhand-offhand-barrel-mods gearing. It is nice to not have to use rapid shots but the loss of TD, 3% tech crit rate, 9% Rail Shot/Rocket Punch damage, and the extra 6% Incendiary Missile/Rocket Punch damage from the top end talents.

[Zakmonster]

I switched back AP because of the new CC in 2.7 (sins get a new stun, ops get a root, etc) That and with shields being up more, it handles the new buffed weapon damage mechanics in 2.7 better.

 

The biggest thing I would ask for on AP, it a shorter CD on shoulder cannon. Maybe a surge bonus on rocket punch while we're at it, because 5-6k rail shot crits don't compete with pyro.

 

Doesn't AP already have a surge bonus on Rocket Punch? Or am I mistaken? I haven't been AP in a while.

[TACeMossie]

Doesn't AP already have a surge bonus on Rocket Punch? Or am I mistaken? I haven't been AP in a while.

 

Yeah they do.

 

In relation to crits and as of 2.4, they have:

 

+6% crit rate on Elemental attacks + Rocket Punch

+30% surge on Rocket Punch, Flame Thrower, Immolate, Retractable Blade.

[Brunner_Venda]

Yeah they do.

 

In relation to crits and as of 2.4, they have:

 

+6% crit rate on Elemental attacks + Rocket Punch

+30% surge on Rocket Punch, Flame Thrower, Immolate, Retractable Blade.

 

Thanks, I haven't played AP in... Forever.

 

Pyro specs usually get the elemental crit rate too, it's a bottom tier skill in the tactics tree.

 

The surge bonus is really good, but it still feels like something is missing from the spec.

[Sosajoshua]

lmfao side note...i love facerolling Annihilation /maras and Vengence juggs on my AP powertech. dont know why but they make it so easy to just watch them burn

[Brunner_Venda]

lmfao side note...i love facerolling Annihilation /maras and Vengence juggs on my AP powertech. dont know why but they make it so easy to just watch them burn

 

Because a decent carnage mara will faceroll you?

 

They're a tough fight for AP, you really have to pay attention, kite, and avoid gore at all costs

Edited April 15, 2014 by Brunner_Venda

[Sosajoshua]

Because a decent carnage mara will faceroll you?

 

They're a tough fight for AP, you really have to pay attention, kite, and avoid gore at all costs

 

i havent done ranked in a while so i cant remember when i last saw a carnage mara thus is was really only talking about Veng/Anni...although between Hydralic Override, Carbonize, and Electrodat i dont see how we can handle a carnage mara (albiet avoiding gore as you said)