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So just wanting to understand something.....

Wolfninjajedi

By Wolfninjajedi
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Wolfninjajedi

Wolfninjajedi

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So I see many posts about this sort of thing and quite honestly...it just baffles me, it makes me look at my computer screen as I am reading in a puzzled way because...I don't see what the issue is personally. Plus I seem to notice a similar thing with other entertainment mediums, yet no one seems to really mind this type of thing...yet for Star Wars people get up in arms because of it? Am I missing something here?

 

Now you're probably wondering just *** Wolf is talking about and i'll tell you...it's this whole...

 

"Force Users have been turned into powerhouses, doing all kinds of ridiculous things using The Force.."

 

"They have been turned into demi-gods!"

 

Blah, blah, blah, you get the picture.

 

Now why this baffles me....is because, maybe I'm looking at it wrong. But....I don't see the problem in Force Users being like this, now before someone comes in and goes

 

"Yeah well in the movies, they were less powerful!"

 

Yes, but why is that? Because

 

1. If we actually saw the Force Users are suppose to be, they would be too fast for the camera to track. So the saber fights are slowed down so the audience is able to see, instead of just blurs of lightsabers and the like.

 

In the movie novelizations which is right up there with the movies, characters are described as moving in blurs both with their bodies and blades. So don't go there with the characters aren't suppose to be that fast.

 

Even then there are only a handful of characters or so that can actually move very fast anyway, it's not every Force User that can move as fast as the likes of Anakin, Luke, Yoda, Obi-Wan, Sidious, etc etc.

 

But moving on again, now in the EU we have many characters described as what people argue about and say they are "turned into demi-gods, powerhouses, etc".

 

Ok...but you guys know that in several of the movies, The Force has been described as being all powerful and being able to do pretty much anything yes? To quote...

 

"Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed, the ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of The Force"- Darth Vader, ANH.

 

"I can't. It's too big."

 

"Size matters not, look at me judge me by my size do you hm? And well you should not...for my ally is The Force and a powerful ally it is."- Yoda to Luke, ESB.

 

Speaking of this quote folks, I find it funny people complain about Force Users throwing around ships when it was stated by Yoda right there, that The Force doesn't give 2 ***** about the size of something and then proved it.

 

"The darkside of The Force is a pathway to many abilities, some considered to be unnatural.."- Palpatine to Anakin, ROTS.

 

On top of this folks, you have scenes well within the movies showcasing extreme power. Such as...

 

1. Yoda sensing Anakin's pain over his mother's death across the galaxy, also when Jedi are dying due to Order 66.

 

2. Force Ghosts, Obi-Wan, Yoda and Anakin.

 

The fact that Obi-Wan, Yoda and Anakin were able to become Force Ghosts and be physically within the living world should tell you The Force is very powerful if they could do that and it's not really limited.

 

 

Moving on....really guys, in the EU there are only about a handful of Force Users that are as put by some people "demi-gods, powerhouses" there really are not that many as a lot seem to imply and they blow it out of proportion with that

 

"Oh Force Users can do this, this and this ridiculous stuff!"

 

No...not every Force User can, it's not a big number.

 

In fact if you wanna see ridiculous/overblown things, look at DC/Marvel comics they make Star Wars look TAME by comparsion with all the things the characters do.

 

 

So I just wanna know everyone's thoughts and understand why, because...I don't understand when people start going on about all this kinda stuff.

Edited by Wolfninjajedi
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StarSquirrel

StarSquirrel

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Couple of answers.

 

For one, that would make Force Using characters Mary Sues capable of solving all problems with the force. The demi-gods would then become characters one could not relate to and any story regarding them would lack compelling human elements. Also, as their power grows you have to build opponents with yet greater power in an upward spiral that can get out of control, an issue often cited as a reason people dislike the Post-RotJ EU. <My Out of Universe explanation.

 

The majority of force users don't have the will/focus/raw power/connection that the more powerful users have. Combined with repeated accounts of skilled non-force users kill numerous force users alone, and we can see on average that Force Users are far from demi-gods. <In Universe explanation

 

It should also be pointed out that the Force has limitations based on the user, not the innate power of the force itself which is seemingly infinite.

 

Oh, Abeloth is what comes out of having hyper-powerful force users. Gotta give them a challenge right? (I hate Abeloth personally)

Edited by StarSquirrel
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sell-dog

sell-dog

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I feel like the only people who say those kind of things are the ones who are trying to put down movie and post-ROTJ EU characters in order to build Old Republic characters (and everyone knows which 2 in particular) up. And yes you're right about the DC/Marvel comparison, who hasn't been brought back to life in those things and heck some of the characters literally are gods and demi-gods.

 

Now the big thing is, "Well the post-ROTJ EU is going to be wiped soon so let's not even talk about it". That is exactly the same idea as me saying "Obama won't be the U.S. president in a couple years so I'll just say no one is the president in the meantime". Stupid and makes no sense.

 

Everyone certainly has a right to an opinion and every subscriber has the right to post whatever they want on these forums (within the guidelines). Whether I acknowledge/view it as worth my time or not is a different question :D

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cs_zoltan

cs_zoltan

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I'm actually fine with it, what bugs me though is right the contrary. When sith and jedi "power houses" do stupid thing that they could do sooo much easier with the force. Like for example "Oh I'm Obi-Wan Kenobi, one of the strongest jedi ever, and I'm gona protect my former love from this death watch assassin with my bare hands"
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Wolfninjajedi

Wolfninjajedi

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Couple of answers.

 

For one, that would make Force Using characters Mary Sues capable of solving all problems with the force. The demi-gods would then become characters one could not relate to and any story regarding them would lack compelling human elements. Also, as their power grows you have to build opponents with yet greater power in an upward spiral that can get out of control, an issue often cited as a reason people dislike the Post-RotJ EU. <My Out of Universe explanation.

 

Yes because Luke was soloing entire wars because he didn't have an entire government backing him and his friends and he displays no human emotions or what have you, especially when Mara Jade died. Oh wait...:rolleyes:

 

 

Oh let's see, what about Sidious? Because he certainly was able to take over and maintain the galaxy by himself, it's not like he didn't have an entire Galactic Empire backing him and making sure everything was in check. Oh wait....

 

Oh let's see how about Caedus? Surely this guy from the post-ROTJ has done any of what was said. Oh wait...no he hasn't, because as I recall he displayed emotions, he cared about his family.

 

They can't do everything with The Force, they can't solve everything by using it. They aren't infailable.

Edited by Wolfninjajedi
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Kaedusz

Kaedusz

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Now the big thing is, "Well the post-ROTJ EU is going to be wiped soon so let's not even talk about it". That is exactly the same idea as me saying "Obama won't be the U.S. president in a couple years so I'll just say no one is the president in the meantime". Stupid and makes no sense.

 

Doesn't have any connection at all.Obama is valid, and is part of real history.Post ep 6 EU is just garbage and mumbo jumbo that didn't even happen in the SW universe.It happened in some parallel SW fan fiction universe.

 

It's more like a historical event about which everyone was deluded about what happened.And then some archaeologist finds written evidence about what really happened at the time period,which changes our perception of the given time.

 

Clinging to the old way of understanding the event is really stupid,even if the last few pages of the text describing what really happened is not translated yet.(=movie isn't out yet)

Edited by Kaedusz
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Aurbere

Aurbere

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Doesn't have any connection at all.Obama is valid, and is part of real history.Post ep 6 EU is just garbage and mumbo jumbo that didn't even happen in the SW universe.It happened in some parallel SW fan fiction universe.

 

Incorrect. The Star Wars universe is one coherent universe, unless we're talking Infinites. The post-ROTJ novels do not take place in the Infinites theme.

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Sanguiluna

Sanguiluna

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I'm okay with the "overpowering" of Force users. It just makes all the "muggle" characters (e.g. Han, Fett, Carth, etc.) look even more awesome for being able to roll with them and even get the one up on them every so often. Edited by Sanguiluna
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ImmortalLowlife

ImmortalLowlife

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I absolutely love the idea of the Force being so powerful. The extended universe is really what got me into Star Wars...because of how the Force was portrayed.

 

I agree....although it was the original trilogy that got me hooked, it was the EU kept me hooked. The Jedi & Sith are superheroes/villains. They're supposed to be overpowered And godlike. Galen imo is a great example of how the most powerful force users should be portrayed.

 

UNLEASHED!!!!!

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Maaruin

Maaruin

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So I just wanna know everyone's thoughts and understand why, because...I don't understand when people start going on about all this kinda stuff.

 

I'll try my best to give you my reasons, which are probably not the common reasons. (It should be noted that my ideal of the Force is primarily shaped by the OT, and the PT contradicts it at several points.)

 

I actually agree with what Vader and Yoda say about the Force. There shouldn't be any limits to what the Force can do.

What bugs me is the way this is presented in most of the EU. The Force should be something mystical that can't be reduced to simple "Force powers". Example:

 

In RotJ the Emperor wants Luke to die after he rejected the dark side. He hates Luke for this decision/rejection and he wants him to die slowly, painfully. There are shorter, cleaner ways to kill Luke with the Force (snap his neck), but that is not what the Emperor wants. So he materializes his hatred in the form of lightning.

This should not be an ability you can learn and train and it shouldn't be a combat move. It should be more like a state of mind that manifests in the outside world.

 

Lifting the X-Wing out of the swamp is a state of mind as well. Yoda has rid himself of the notion that size means something to the Force. There is no difference between lifting a stone, lifting a starfighter or lifting a star destroyer. If you truly realize this, Yoda slamming transport ships together is not any more impressive than lifting something smaller.

But in the EU it is often used as a feat to show how strong in the Force he is. No, this shouldn't be about strength, not even about mastery of the Force. It is mastery of his own thoughts.

 

This introspective, mystical approach is very difficult to convey. Most SW writers seem to treat using the Force basically as superpowers. This is also the case in most of the prequels as well (see the end of AotC). Jedi and Sith use "Force abilities" at will, the stronger they are in the Force, the stronger their abilities. Arguably it is still the state of mind that counts, but this isn't visible anymore.

 

There are exceptions which present the mystical aspects of the force quite well in the EU. Darth Sion's immortality for example. Much thought is given into how his thinking enables him to do that. There are no limitations to it, he simply cannot be killed. He only dies after he decides to let go.

 

I hope you understand what I'm trying to say. If not, I'll try to clarify more.

Edited by Maaruin
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VitalityPrime

VitalityPrime

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This introspective, mystical approach is very difficult to convey. Most SW writers seem to treat using the Force basically as superpowers. This is also the case in most of the prequels as well (see the end of AotC). Jedi and Sith use "Force abilities" at will, the stronger they are in the Force, the stronger their abilities. Arguably it is still the state of mind that counts, but this isn't visible anymore.

 

I think it's still there.

 

You have to think about it...Anakin was, no doubt, one of the strongest in the force...but Dooku easily bested him in AotC...because the difference in the state of mind between the two.

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Maaruin

Maaruin

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I think it's still there.

 

You have to think about it...Anakin was, no doubt, one of the strongest in the force...but Dooku easily bested him in AotC...because the difference in the state of mind between the two.

 

It is there at some points, but it isn't conveyed well. And then there are points where OT and PT seem somewhat at odds.

 

Compare telekinesis in ESB to telekinesis in AotC:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMUKGTkiWik&t=1m40s

Yoda knows that the the Force is his ally and that to the Force size doesn't matter. He closes his eyes and pulls the X-Wing out of the swamp like it is a normal thing to do.

 

Yoda visibly struggles with the pillar, seemingly because it is heavy. It looks like this requires strength and effort.

 

 

Compare Force lightning in RotJ to AotC:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RFYoZ7H67A&t=5m00s

The Emperor's hatred is palpable (pun fully intended). This really shows that he uses the dark side to make Luke suffer. The Emperor's state of mind and the lightning fit together perfectly.

 

Lightning is a skill Dooku uses in battle. It seems like just another skill that can be learned by Sith. And I think it shouldn't be. Force lightning should come from the depths of the dark side, a manifestation of pure hatred.

 

 

 

So my problem isn't when the Force is used in impressive ways. My problem is when these don't seem to be connected to the underlaying principles anymore.

 

I'm not sure if that makes it any clearer, I'll have to think more about it.

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