Armonddd Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 I don't fully understand the purpose of standardization of terms for this. What else are you gonna do between queues and/or while procrastinating an essay? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OscarDivine Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 Fair point, but there really should be a tangible goal at the end of all this discussion. So far as I can tell, defining these terms to a standard get us no further if we cannot educate the population of forum posters on said terms. If a second Aces thread were to appear, these definitions could be used, but then that means a new thread would have to be started and we all know that would end up the same way as the last. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr_sim Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 I ment 5 or greater battle record kills not individual match K/D Yeah doesn't matter, 5 K/D is still insanely high for Ace, if you wanted to say 5 kills per match, sure maybe. But not a ratio of 5 that's crazy high numbers. Clearly you don't understand what an Ace is, Try Wikipedia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armonddd Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 Yeah doesn't matter, 5 K/D is still insanely high for Ace, if you wanted to say 5 kills per match, sure maybe. But not a ratio of 5 that's crazy high numbers. Clearly you don't understand what an Ace is, Try Wikipedia. If you think 5 K/D is a lot, well, uh, I mean... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoom_VI Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 Yeah doesn't matter, 5 K/D is still insanely high for Ace, if you wanted to say 5 kills per match, sure maybe. But not a ratio of 5 that's crazy high numbers. Clearly you don't understand what an Ace is, Try Wikipedia. IRL a ace is 5 career kills, also in real life you only get one death. So having a K/D of 5 in GSF is a related benchmark. On a side note I am easily certain that getting a K/D of five or higher in GSF is way easier than five kills IRL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuinMantha Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 On a side note I am easily certain that getting a K/D of five or higher in GSF is way easier than five kills IRL. Hah! You can say that again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr_sim Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 (edited) If you think 5 K/D is a lot, well, uh, I mean... RATIO!!! that means if you die which even the best player do, you have to increase your kills to maintain that ratio. IRL a ace is 5 career kills, also in real life you only get one death. So having a K/D of 5 in GSF is a related benchmark. On a side note I am easily certain that getting a K/D of five or higher in GSF is way easier than five kills IRL. Probably true though If you actually flew in GSF to get zero deaths like RL pilots do then well........ You both seem to be missing this whole it's a ratio, not hard numbers. Maybe you should actually look at death counts. Tell you what I'll just focus down any player on the Ace list to inflate their Deaths so they don't have 5 KDR, guess they stop being Aces then. If you think that is a load then consider that if I do focus a player, 2 things will happen. Either their deaths go up or their kills go down. FACT. Lastly if your are a excellent player in a terrible group, YOU WILL NOT EVER BECOME ACE IF 5 KDR IS REQUIRED. It simply won't happen if your team lets you down. But whatever maintain your F**k You solo ques who don't only run premade policy. You defiantly want to maintain your elitest ranks and defiantly not make quality players feel good about their gameplay because they haven't reached that oh so exclusive and limited pool of top players. A pool that really doesn't grow as it is redefined higher and higher as more and more players reach it each time. The Ace title is not meant to separate Elite from common pilot. It's to reward pilots for competence and effectiveness. Edited March 24, 2014 by mr_sim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yndras Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 (edited) If you think 5 K/D is a lot, well, uh, I mean... Across your entire battle record on a baseline of 1000 matches a K/D of 5:1 is actually pretty high. Especially if you have included all your various ship types. You might get 15+ kills some matches, but to maintain a 5:1 ratio is pretty difficult, but how often to you do that with one death, or none? Edited March 24, 2014 by Yndras Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armonddd Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 RATIO!!! that means if you die which even the best player do, you have to increase your kills to maintain that ratio. Does the fraction bar not indicate a ratio in some language? The Ace title is not meant to separate Elite from common pilot. It's to reward pilots for competence and effectiveness. For better or for worse, that's what happens when you segregate ranks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuinMantha Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 The Ace title is not meant to separate Elite from common pilot. It's to reward pilots for competence and effectiveness. For better or for worse, that's what happens when you segregate ranks. I'll take my reward with tens and twenties! Or cheesecake. Or a hundred-dollar gift certificate to Bed Bath and Beyond! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armonddd Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 (edited) The bigger problem with basing things off of K/D is that, even if you only look at the player's best ship (e.g. I consider myself a flashfire ace, but my strike fighter stats are embarrassing), you're including all the time it took to master that ship, and in many cases time it took to learn how to be an ace. My current main's flash has something like 4.1 K/D and 5.1 KHADR (kills plus half assists over deaths) -- but if you took out the matches before I mastered it, both of those stats would be significantly higher. Further, I've had plenty of tactical deaths -- when I need to reload ammo, when I need to switch ships, when I need to be on another side of the map, when it's worth the death to set up a kill for a teammate. Looking at KDR and KHADR punishes people who suicide when it's good for the team. And if you look at the character I learned to play on, my stats are frankly dismal -- 6.01 average kills per battle, because back when I was learning to play on him everyone was terrible. I was still one of the better pilots on the server, though. Do my stats mean I wasn't an ace? Frankly speaking, I don't think it's possible to objectively qualify someone as an ace pilot in this game. To do so would require a meaningful statistic representing, say, the past few weeks' worth of evenly matched battles. That's a really hard thing to measure in the first place, and GSF doesn't even try to provide it. Even if matchmaking were working properly (which would pretty much require cross-server queues and weighted statistics for when it fails to properly match teams), you'd have to look at performance since mastering a ship, as it regards to both upgrades and familiarity. Edited March 24, 2014 by Armonddd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yndras Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 (edited) The bigger problem with basing things off of K/D is that, even if you only look at the player's best ship (e.g. I consider myself a flashfire ace, but my strike fighter stats are embarrassing), you're including all the time it took to master that ship, and in many cases time it took to learn how to be an ace. My current main's flash has something like 4.1 K/D and 5.1 KHADR (kills plus half assists over deaths) -- but if you took out the matches before I mastered it, both of those stats would be significantly higher. Further, I've had plenty of tactical deaths -- when I need to reload ammo, when I need to switch ships, when I need to be on another side of the map, when it's worth the death to set up a kill for a teammate. Looking at KDR and KHADR punishes people who suicide when it's good for the team. And if you look at the character I learned to play on, my stats are frankly dismal -- 6.01 average kills per battle, because back when I was learning to play on him everyone was terrible. I was still one of the better pilots on the server, though. Do my stats mean I wasn't an ace? Frankly speaking, I don't think it's possible to objectively qualify someone as an ace pilot in this game. To do so would require a meaningful statistic representing, say, the past few weeks' worth of evenly matched battles. That's a really hard thing to measure in the first place, and GSF doesn't even try to provide it. Even if matchmaking were working properly (which would pretty much require cross-server queues and weighted statistics for when it fails to properly match teams), you'd have to look at performance since mastering a ship, as it regards to both upgrades and familiarity. 4.1 is good. I'm not sure what mine is currently but last time I checked we have similar stats. Its the bad matches that define an ace, not his good ones. Edited March 24, 2014 by Yndras Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleeters Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 (edited) Huh. This is making me feel better about my 12.68 overall K/D ratio, at least. I don't know how much I like that figure, though. I mean my scouts are pulling around those numbers, but my Rampart IV and Star Guard both have the frankly absurd 23.66 kills per death. I'm under no illusions as to the former being a result of me being particularly amazing as opposed to people just slamming into my seismic mines and feeding me kills, and the latter I just haven't played that much against effective opposition. 142 kills to 6 deaths isn't too hard to rack up on teams seemingly comprised mostly of inexperienced rookie pilots. Edited March 24, 2014 by Bleeters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RipperTheMad Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 Since i'm more of a support player than killer my ratios arent high but i have pretty good obj stats and i help others to take kills with ion cannons on my sf or my shield healing drone as bomber Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoom_VI Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 Its the bad matches that define an ace, not his good ones. That's why you use a ratio since it is averaged over all matches. mine is 8.25 on my flashfire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthSchmoe Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 An ace to me is someone that can jump in any ship and do well. Decent pilots can do well and give the appearance of being an "ace" in their "fotm" ships/builds, but true aces can jump in anything and do well. They recognize their strengths and weaknesses of ships/builds, upgraded and/or not, and adapt accordingly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallorik Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 An ace to me is someone that can jump in any ship and do well. Decent pilots can do well and give the appearance of being an "ace" in their "fotm" ships/builds, but true aces can jump in anything and do well. They recognize their strengths and weaknesses of ships/builds, upgraded and/or not, and adapt accordingly. LOL where on earth do people get the idea that you have to be good in a bunch of ships made for people with zero spatial awareness or reflexes? and "fotm ships/builds" lol, like any ace scout pilot couldn't crush you just as easy in any other ship. And someone please give me an example of a gunship "Ace", does he shoot 5 people down before someone notices him and takes the time to go kill him? or is he just good at mashing barrel roll while his premade kills the person that is going to kill him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuinMantha Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 And someone please give me an example of a gunship "Ace", does he shoot 5 people down before someone notices him and takes the time to go kill him? or is he just good at mashing barrel roll while his premade kills the person that is going to kill him? Sure. Phil or Delphi from Ebon Hawk. Both of them know the perfect spots in each map to set up and get the best use out of their railguns. They cover satellites in Domination, shoot bad guys off their teammates' backs in TDM, and are generally hard to kill. Noticing them is not an instant recipe for killing them...in fact, it'll typically make little difference if you notice them or not. If they want you dead, you're dead. They'll top damage, kill, and assist charts, and can have some scary good accuracy numbers. And if your team doesn't make special effort to shut them down, it can and will cost you a match. But, outside of a cockpit, they're also really nice players who will take the time to give advice to new pilots, encouragement to those flying, and don't seem to complain very much about getting killed or 'this ship OP' nonsense. They're very Zen about their flying...if they win, goodie; if they lose, they had fun. You're obviously very contemptuous of Gunship pilots, or, at least, that's the impression I'm getting. What we do is no different from what any other ship class does: we play to our strengths, do the best damage our abilities allow, and avoid getting killed as best we can. Just because Gunships can position themselves out of the immediate fray doesn't mean it's a one-button lolkill machine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SammyGStatus Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 For a GS at least, an Ace (to me) is someone who does the best in any situation. TDM and you have multiple people who're dogfighting? Sure, you could blast the slug all day, but it'd be more practical to AOE them with an ion (got 11 kills and 26 assists the other day doing this). That way, you're still contributing (effectively, as you're increasing the performance for your teammates, you're also contributing to the overall success of the mission). Someone who can turn the tide of battle, perform well in Kills / Damage / Assists while minimizing deaths, and can spot opportunities that provide a tactical advantage (by this I mean if you're 2 capping in a close DOM match, you don't run off and give up a sat because you're trying to 3 cap). Situational awareness and overall impact to me. From what my guildmates said about the Aces thread, it's all political vs. actually being an Ace that's putting up numbers. Just my interpretation As for Scouts / Strike Fighters, I'd figure someone who can take enemies down and or distract the best opponents so they're performance is mitigated. The same general prinicples apply though - knowing how to utilize your ship's role to best influence the environment is my definition of an ace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallorik Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 (edited) Sure. Phil or Delphi from Ebon Hawk. You're obviously very contemptuous of Gunship pilots, or, at least, that's the impression I'm getting. What we do is no different from what any other ship class does: we play to our strengths, do the best damage our abilities allow, and avoid getting killed as best we can. Just because Gunships can position themselves out of the immediate fray doesn't mean it's a one-button lolkill machine. Not contemptuous of gunship pilots, if they didn't have ships for people who cant fly, GSF would be even more dead than it is now since the whole game is made for people who cant fly. I just don't like bs, and calling a gunhip pilot an "ace" is a joke. First off and most blatantly its a dogfighting term, If you have 3 people after you and you kill them, youre an ace. If you snipe them from 15km while theyre engaged with someone else youre not. if you have 3 people after you and youre able to stay alive until your group kills them youre not. Those are all perfectly acceptable and even good play styles, but it doesn't make you an ace. I know everyone wants to be special but if you want to be an ace youll have to get in a ship that actually flies. Edited March 25, 2014 by Mallorik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuinMantha Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 So, Gunship pilots are effectively glorified turret drivers, huh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoom_VI Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 So, Gunship pilots are effectively glorified turret drivers, huh? To be fair a gunship in sniper mode is a turret Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuinMantha Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 Agreed, but now I'm really starting to worry that this brand of contempt is something that's pervasive across the GSF community. I mean, I'll even sit and agree, some of our weapons are a little overdone, but does the sentiment against Gunships now extend to anyone who touches them? Not only is this kinda personally hurtful, it's really tarnishing the image I have of GSF folks being a nicer breed of PvPer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icebergy Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 (edited) I use three categories personally when I think about other players. Vets: These are the guys with 5+ ships and have some skills. I know I can probably take them 1v1, but they have the capacity to kill me, so I have to be on my toes when they are around. New Pilots: Self explanatory, they are new to GSF. They have 2-3 ships and generally try but aren't that good. Bads: The bads have anywhere from 2-5+ ships but they are awful. They fly around doing stupid things and are generally just free kills for the vets. K:D ratio is not a good measure, IMO. Because first off, I only fly my ships that have the worst upgrades. Once I have a ship mastered, it gets removed from my bar to make room for a ship that needs the req. Also I get a ton of full teams of bads vs full teams of vets on my server. No matter which faction I am flying on at the time, its almost always full bads vs full vets one way or the other. Edited March 26, 2014 by Icebergy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SammyGStatus Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 When I'm consistently fighting 3 people BY MYSELF in a GS and evading them the entire time, just to kill them (and still maintaining a 6.0 k/d), you think that requires no skill? FALSE, considering it's what you do in a dogfight over a longer range Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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