Is it ethically right to play SwTOR?

[ikinai]

.....ouch....too soon!

 

Next were you going to suggest a luxury flight on Malaysian Airlines?

 

Hmmm, I can't deny that the ASVAB test was inaccurate.

[DOHboy]

Hmmm, I can't deny that the ASVAB test was inaccurate.

 

hey, moral ambiguity opens you up for a whole world of great careers; international banking...politics...head of IRS...NSA/CIA operative.

[Rasen]

.....ouch....too soon!

 

Next were you going to suggest a luxury flight on Malaysian Airlines?

 

[BuriDogshin]

Greed is very unethical ...

Perhaps you should post your personal definition of "unethical." Check a dictionary first, though, because I am pretty sure it is not defined as either of 1) behavior you do not approve of, or 2) behavior that does not serve your interests.

 

Words have meanings. Conversations depend on mutual agreement on a meaning for the words. That you think "greed" is unethical is an indication that such a mutual agreement may be lacking here.

 

That said, if other people's ethics are so important to you, may I suggest you focus your on-line efforts on a different target, like, for example, using government agencies to target political opponents, or making luxury products using virtual slave labor, or something else a little more REAL than a video game's internal market ?

 

But if inequity in games seems more worthy of your efforts, let me ask you: Is it unethical for rents at Boardwalk to be so much higher than at Park Place, given that development costs for the two properties are the same? Shouldn't ethical Monopoly players charge the same rates on both properties? In fact, shouldn't they charge the same rents as at Baltic, just around the corner? Is it unethical to build a hotel on Boardwalk ? Is it unethical to play Monopoly at all ?

[Criosdh]

Honestly I never understood why anything would be very expensive at all in a digital store like the CM. This is exactly what is wrong with businesses in America and why we have such a high failure rate for businesses and especially corporations. They'd rather sell one hammer at a 4 dollar profit than sell 2 hammers at a 3 dollar profit a piece. Sound crazy? I've worked for more than 1 large corporation who had this mentality. The problem with doing this in a digital store like the CM or the Turbine store is that it literally costs them NOTHING to supply a 2nd and 3rd and so on product. Selling anything at a high price in the store is like a caveman making a fire and then dying of starvation because he wanted an entire deer just to let someone light their torch over his fire. It costs him nothing to let them hold their torch over his fire and light it so why charge so much that you hardly sell any product? If it's free to produce at a certain point (such as after your artists/etc labor are calculated you can make multiple copies of gear/mounts/etc for ZERO overhead) why charge a lot and have very few people purchase it?

 

Things like dyes should be easily and readily available. Dyes encourage people to buy things that can be dyed. There's been at least a couple of outfits I was tempted to buy in the CM but didn't because if I was going to use them I would want it to be in something like solid black and I am not about to spend CM points or 1 million credits on a single use dye. No how, no way, no thanks. If I'm going to bother with dyes then I want to be able to dye and dye and dye again at no significant hit to my bank account. I'll drop significant credits/CM points on outfits to use dyes on, but I'm not paying a fortune to get the colors I want.

[Kourage]

Capitalism is indeed ethical.

[Reno_Tarshil]

It is ethical to play SWTOR because cake.

[DOHboy]

It is ethical to play SWTOR because cake.

 

but the cake is a lie. yes i know that is old, but car tire.

[ZionHalcyon]

Capitalism is indeed ethical.

 

Still the fairest system of trade there is, and allows small business and entrepreneurial people to enter a market otherwise shut to them.

[TravelersWay]

Honestly I never understood why anything would be very expensive at all in a digital store like the CM. This is exactly what is wrong with businesses in America and why we have such a high failure rate for businesses and especially corporations. They'd rather sell one hammer at a 4 dollar profit than sell 2 hammers at a 3 dollar profit a piece. Sound crazy? I've worked for more than 1 large corporation who had this mentality. The problem with doing this in a digital store like the CM or the Turbine store is that it literally costs them NOTHING to supply a 2nd and 3rd and so on product. Selling anything at a high price in the store is like a caveman making a fire and then dying of starvation because he wanted an entire deer just to let someone light their torch over his fire. It costs him nothing to let them hold their torch over his fire and light it so why charge so much that you hardly sell any product? If it's free to produce at a certain point (such as after your artists/etc labor are calculated you can make multiple copies of gear/mounts/etc for ZERO overhead) why charge a lot and have very few people purchase it?

 

Things like dyes should be easily and readily available. Dyes encourage people to buy things that can be dyed. There's been at least a couple of outfits I was tempted to buy in the CM but didn't because if I was going to use them I would want it to be in something like solid black and I am not about to spend CM points or 1 million credits on a single use dye. No how, no way, no thanks. If I'm going to bother with dyes then I want to be able to dye and dye and dye again at no significant hit to my bank account. I'll drop significant credits/CM points on outfits to use dyes on, but I'm not paying a fortune to get the colors I want.

 

I would agree with you on principle. Heck, it is my belief that all MMOs should be Freemium and offer three ways to obtain every single item created in the game - normal gameplay, in-game purchase via an NPC vendor, via real money in the Cash Shop. However, I think Mal puts it best:

You're getting frivolous, ill-formed responses because you asked a frivolous, ill-formed question.

 

You say that you're asking if its exploitive, but failed to describe any actual exploitation. You alluded to exploitation, but never described a situation and showed how it was exploitive. The closest you came was in describing an Economics 101 example of supply and demand. If you think that controlling supply and demand is exploitation, then its time for you to move to an island in Oceania, because virtually every commodity industry in the modern world controls price and sales by manipulating supply and demand.

 

In the real world, this is actually a necessary practice as it prevents price/supply fluctuations which would produce dangerous situations with essential commodities. In a game... its just a frivolous simulation of economics.

 

Let's use a good analogy from the real world: The world's diamond industry stockpiles uncut diamonds. One of the prime reasons is to maintain a low availability of cut diamonds and keep the price high. This helps them by keeping their profits high. However, it also helps customers because the customers only see value in diamonds because they are rare and are seen as a prestige item. I'll reiterate: Customer want them to be rare. They like them because they are rare.

 

The same happens with items in the CM. Bioware makes some items rare because players want rare things. That requires making it hard to get some items. Driving people to buy extra packs is the financial motivation, but don't believe for a moment that any player is forced to buy packs, or that they would prefer it if all items were easily obtainable.

 

 

 

And for the 3rd time (who knows how many times by now) people are telling you No. They are telling you this by saying that the foundation of your question is unsound and invalid.

[Apeth]

Everyone holds differing ethics, your article will be relevant for you only I'm affraid op.

[NoFishing]

That's sorta what's going on in my head. now, not sure if any of it makes sense.

 

With all the run-on sentences in that...no...no it doesn't.

[NoFishing]

you're right as well.. it becomes wrong because it is irresponsible if you are spending more than you can afford, but then think aboutthis yeah, even if you can afford it, should you be spending such a valuable resource in such a large amount? If you have it to spend, isn't it morally right to give it to a self less cause? seeing so many people around you need money, you could invest it to help start up business or even start a project of your own.

 

Except at this point, we open ourselves to arguing about all the ways people "waste" money.

 

Is spending money going out to eat, when you could prepare a cheaper meal at home ethical? You could probably spend that money better. Except now the restaurant has no business and lays off all it's employees. Same argument to be made about going to see a movie in a theater vs renting one at home.

 

How about this: Is spending time and money on a computer and internet connection to post on an internet forum ethical? Couldn't you make better use of that time and money? Not to mention you are using electricity that causes pollution and harms the environment. That's pretty bad, isn't it?

 

Is it ethical to spend more money buying a hybrid car than you can actually save in fuel costs? What if takes more energy to make the hybrid than it could actually save in fuel in 20 years? Heck, is purchasing any new car ethical, given how quickly new cars depreciate in value?

 

My point of all this is that individuals will spend their time and money in ways that make sense to them. If you get enjoyment from the game and CM, then you shouldn't worry about it. If you are worried that you are spending money you can't afford, then maybe you should cut back.

 

But unless somehow that money was being funneled towards oppression, terrorism, etc, there really isn't a case to be made about "ethics" or "exploitation". And especially since we are talking about an entertainment service here, that people are free to participate in or not, and not something like access to health care, it's just a silly discussion to be having at all.

[Mowermanx]

Complaining about gambling or how the game might feed a gambling or compulsive addiction is pretty pointless. The CM doesn't meet the legal definition of gambling in any jurisdiction I've heard of (and that is a long, boring debate that ends up drawing in loads of people who can't separate the idea of legally defined gambling and "it feels like gambling").

Hiding behind a legal definition to dismiss a subject that is far from black and white is very weak by your own standards.

Id love to be able to view the world and all its issues as black and white, right or wrong.

[DOHboy]

Hiding behind a legal definition to dismiss a subject that is far from black and white is very weak by your own standards.

Id love to be able to view the world and all its issues as black and white, right or wrong.

 

ethics are a legal term. Morals are a social term.

 

it is ethical (and required) for defense lawyers to defend pedophiles, murderers, and the worst of the worst of humanity. It is up to the morals of the person to whether they can meet the ethical requirements of the job (aka to the fullest of their ability).

[skarlson]

They do not control all aspects of the market. They do not control how often someone decides to use an item making unsellable. They do not control how often people horde items hoping to take advantage of future market unavailability. Also players benefits from the same decisions by being able to sell stuff higher. What's bad is that I see black selling for millions of credits, that tells me the drop rate needs increased. What's bad is making the purposeful decision to allow the free flowing of the ugliest colors as though it is some sort of boon.

 

I would be willing to bet a substantial sum the majority of the color combos being as atrocious as they are rarely get used because most people think they are ugly as hell. When you can control an aspect and you purposefully release garbage then you are in the wrong. You are saying here is this great content go for it and selling it and most of the time it is useless trash that people spent real money on. That is obviously wrong just as selling someone a lemon of a car is wrong. They know it and it is done on purpose.

 

Having a greater variety of stuff people will actually USE even if it isn't their first choice because they don't want to fork over 5m credits or whatever for a black color would invariably lower the price of those other items. More people would buy thus supply would go down making those prices go up until they stabilize at something more realistic.

[TravelersWay]

They do not control all aspects of the market. They do not control how often someone decides to use an item making unsellable. They do not control how often people horde items hoping to take advantage of future market unavailability. Also players benefits from the same decisions by being able to sell stuff higher. What's bad is that I see black selling for millions of credits, that tells me the drop rate needs increased. What's bad is making the purposeful decision to allow the free flowing of the ugliest colors as though it is some sort of boon.

 

I would be willing to bet a substantial sum the majority of the color combos being as atrocious as they are rarely get used because most people think they are ugly as hell. When you can control an aspect and you purposefully release garbage then you are in the wrong. You are saying here is this great content go for it and selling it and most of the time it is useless trash that people spent real money on. That is obviously wrong just as selling someone a lemon of a car is wrong. They know it and it is done on purpose.

 

Having a greater variety of stuff people will actually USE even if it isn't their first choice because they don't want to fork over 5m credits or whatever for a black color would invariably lower the price of those other items. More people would buy thus supply would go down making those prices go up until they stabilize at something more realistic.

 

Selling a Lemon car has nothing to do with limiting or driving the price up on a particular color of dye. Limited edition items are a common practice in the business world specifically for the express purpose of generating demand and charging a premium price on said item. Absolutely nothing wrong with that - especially taken in the context of of video game where nothing at all is needed for the health or sustainability of human life. It is not without precedent that things like dyes in other games have a variable cost based upon their desirability. In the original GW, black dye was always very expensive in relation to the other colors because market demand and desirability drove those prices higher, and it was a rarer drop in the game world. Now, one can argue that spending $20 on something like this is kind of ridiculous, but if the demand is there, then it is what it is. Again, for those not wishing to spend real money on them can purchase them from others via the GTN for in game credits. Again, that cost will be driven by the demand, desirability, and of course value of the item. Nothing really wrong with that at all.

 

In essence, a better example would be that people who want rare and popular dyes to be as common and affordable as the "crap" dyes are essentially saying that they want Lamborghini to make as many cars as Yugo and charge the same price. That is patently asinine.

Edited March 21, 2014 by TravelersWay

[DarthTHC]

Selling a Lemon car has nothing to do with limiting or driving the price up on a particular color of dye. Limited edition items are a common practice in the business world specifically for the express purpose of generating demand and charging a premium price on said item. Absolutely nothing wrong with that - especially taken in the context of of video game where nothing at all is needed for the health or sustainability of human life. It is not without precedent that things like dyes in other games have a variable cost based upon their desirability. In the original GW, black dye was always very expensive in relation to the other colors because market demand and desirability drove those prices higher, and it was a rarer drop in the game world. Now, one can argue that spending $20 on something like this is kind of ridiculous, but if the demand is there, then it is what it is. Again, for those not wishing to spend real money on them can purchase them from others via the GTN for in game credits. Again, that cost will be driven by the demand, desirability, and of course value of the item. Nothing really wrong with that at all.

 

In essence, a better example would be that people who want rare and popular dyes to be as common and affordable as the "crap" dyes are essentially saying that they want Lamborghini to make as many cars as Yugo and charge the same price. That is patently asinine.

 

The part you miss in that last is that the Lamborghini requires considerably more real-world resources to produce than does the Yugo, whereas the black/black dye requires exactly the same resources to produce as purple-pink or green-red or whatever other hideous combination you care to dream up.

 

But, really, the dye color prices and rarity don't bother me one way or the other. If I wanted black/black, or whatever the expensive, cool flavor of the day is, badly enough I would find a way to get the credits to buy it. Just like I don't complain about the price of a Lamborghini, so do I not complain about the price of dye kits. If I wanted it badly enough, I'd figure out how to earn it.

Edited March 21, 2014 by DarthTHC

[TravelersWay]

The part you miss in that last is that the Lamborghini requires considerably more real-world resources to produce than does the Yugo, whereas the black/black dye requires exactly the same resources to produce as purple-pink or green-red or whatever other hideous combination you care to dream up.

 

But, really, the dye color prices and rarity don't bother me one way or the other. If I wanted black/black, or whatever the expensive, cool flavor of the day is, badly enough I would find a way to get the credits to buy it. Just like I don't complain about the price of a Lamborghini, so do I not complain about the price of dye kits. If I wanted it badly enough, I'd figure out how to earn it.

 

In regards to the first part, I conveniently ignored that fact to make the analogy support my arguement (that is SOP and what we are supposed to do on the forums, correct?). But then again, we actually don't know what goes into the making of the dyes - for all we know, the black/black and other rare, popular ones actually are the equivalent, development-wise, to the Lambo and the crappy, unpopular ones are as easy and cheap to make as the Yugo.

 

As for the second part, agreed, of course.

Edited March 21, 2014 by TravelersWay

[Eanelinea]

As I tell people on the fleet who complain about having to pay for items whether via subscriptions or cartel market-- you want expansions, new content, more pvp areas, more whatever, right? SOMEONE is going to pay for it. Do people think it's free to run the servers? Or that the programs they use just popped out of the aether one day and Bioware was there to grab it and use it? I'm pretty sure the employees at Bioware, from the forum moderators to the people actually coding the game and everything in it get paid to do their jobs.

 

And that money is going to come from somewhere. Sure, there are games out there 100% free, from playing it to new content, but I don't think they're as good.

 

This is a game. You are under no obligation whatsoever to buy anything from the cartel market or pay a subscription fee each month. Bioware is not in your house, holding a weapon to your head, making you play it. They may take advice or suggestions from players, but only because they want your money because, now wait, this may surprise you!

 

They want your money and want you to keep paying for the hard work they put into the game for YOU, the player. It might not be the greatest thing on earth, or maybe it is. But as I said, no one at all is forcing you to play SWTOR.

[Grayseven]

Greed may be wrong, but what defines greed for an entity whose sole purpose in existence is to earn money?

 

A business has a responsibility to its shareholders to earn money. This is the basis of investment. People won't invest in a business that doesn't earn money (the government not withstanding). But Darth had it right as it isn't the push to profit that is bad, it is when there is damage as a result of that push towards profit that is bad.

 

This is why you see an outcry over American companies using what amounts to slave labor in SE Asia to make electronics for sale to the first world. Using that labor furthers the exploitation of those workers and, in my opinion, is ethically wrong.

 

But it is ultimately the consumers responsibility to do the research and to make the choice. No amount of debate will change that fact.

[Reno_Tarshil]

The part you miss in that last is that the Lamborghini requires considerably more real-world resources to produce than does the Yugo, whereas the black/black dye requires exactly the same resources to produce as purple-pink or green-red or whatever other hideous combination you care to dream up.

 

But, really, the dye color prices and rarity don't bother me one way or the other. If I wanted black/black, or whatever the expensive, cool flavor of the day is, badly enough I would find a way to get the credits to buy it. Just like I don't complain about the price of a Lamborghini, so do I not complain about the price of dye kits. If I wanted it badly enough, I'd figure out how to earn it.

 

 

But my precious green red dye which will never come out isn't hideous!

[jedimasterjac]

I don't see how ethics or a lack of ethics is involved in the purchase and playing of a video game. I play SW:ToR because it's fun, and leave it at that.

[Grayseven]

OP was about whether the CM was exploiting the users because of price controls and "grab bags". I don't think EA/BW is using slave labor on its development side. Call it a hunch but pretty sure the 'worst company in america" would be best described as worst products in america and everything to do with the consumer side and nothing to do with the employment side.

 

The OP's post was about ethics and whether the ethics of EA/BW were clashing with his own. At least, that's how I read it. Business ethics can have many different faces so using comparisons can easily show that ethics are in the eye of the beholder.

 

Exploiting workers, exploiting customers...I feel they are both bad ethically but the problem lay in the fact that we all have different views on what is or isn't ethical and what the ramifications of those ethics might be. I don't see EA/BW's actions vis a vis the CM to be unethical because I don't feel EA/BW is twisting anyone's arm to partake in the CM. It's their game, their rules and we have the free will to engage in CM purchases or not.

 

For example, I no longer buy CC. I use the free CC given me and use in game credits to buy stuff I want from people who do buy CC and buy stuff to sell for credits. If I had an ethical problem with the CM I would be hypocritical in doing this much as someone complaining about low wages at a fast food restaurant snarfing down one of their burgers would be. I don't feel the CM is ethically wrong, I just don't feel I should be spending real cash on fake items that I'll never see again once the game shuts down.

 

Ethics are a personal choice, plain and simple and I can't make suggestions for the OP's ethics based on my ethics unless he/she is willing to follow my ethical rules.

 

(And Halcy, I live downstate from Chicago by a couple hours myself and have been Union and I've seen the abuses, but I've also seen the good a Union does. Like anything else in this world, there is good and bad.)

Edited March 21, 2014 by Grayseven

[skarlson]

Limited edition items are a common practice in the business world specifically for the express purpose of generating demand and charging a premium price on said item. Absolutely nothing wrong with that - especially taken in the context of of video game where nothing at all is needed for the health or sustainability of human life. It is not without precedent that things like dyes in other games have a variable cost based upon their desirability. In the original GW, black dye was always very expensive in relation to the other colors because market demand and desirability drove those prices higher, and it was a rarer drop in the game world. Now, one can argue that spending $20 on something like this is kind of ridiculous, but if the demand is there, then it is what it is. Again, for those not wishing to spend real money on them can purchase them from others via the GTN for in game credits. Again, that cost will be driven by the demand, desirability, and of course value of the item. Nothing really wrong with that at all.

 

In essence, a better example would be that people who want rare and popular dyes to be as common and affordable as the "crap" dyes are essentially saying that they want Lamborghini to make as many cars as Yugo and charge the same price. That is patently asinine.

 

If you want to conclude with that is stupid at least be kind enough to not do the same thing you accuse another of e.g. using an imperfect example. In the business world it is NOT common practice to sell a box of stuff where you have no idea what is in the box so apples and oranges. Lamborghini vs Yugo is also a bad example. A Lamborghini is a supercar that is built by hand with precision components intended to achieve a high performance car. A Yugo...is a Yugo.