Nikolu Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 Never had the farmed gear and or read any tactics, we were a pretty casual guild and just slower at getting to them, we learned from wiping and picking ourselves up and doing them again. EQ raids were harder because they were designed harder, WOW intentionally made everything easier. Nothing in WOW had you tank mez 6 uber elite mobs it takes a raid of 75 to kill while also having 6 others ones have to be kited around by druids bards and rangers because you cannot kill them until you kill the 6 ones being tank mezzed by a single group, and you could not kill any of the 6 as they all had to be killed within a minute of each other or they all re-spawned,. Do your self a favor and look up time flagging in EQ and what was necessary to get it. Spare me the WOW is hard crap only people who never played EQ would ever compare WOW raiding to EQ raiding, it was one of the downfalls of EQ and blessings of WOW how they made raiding so much easier. So is short do not talk about things you have no clue about. That's cool and all but would you mind actually contributing to the topic of the thread? EQ did have a combat log, or didn't it? Could you parse EQ raids or couldn't you? And what does that have to do with this game, now, in 2011? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cutiecat Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 If you are that good, you shouldn't need a meter to tell you that you are good. Trial and error is how you should learn the fights, not solving some math and making the fight trivial. You're advocating work harder, not smarter, which doesn't make sense. I don't ENJOY dying or losing and if I can use tools to gain a more advanced understanding of the math and the mechanics that does not trivialize it, it means I understand it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiragrim Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 So don't join those guilds. What's the big deal? Ah.. You don't know, or haven't experienced, the bane of casual players existence; ... guild mergers. It happens all the time. And in-game friends from a casual guild get broken up because someone of the 'new leadership' decides someone can't possibly contribute to raids and they're out. Yeah. That *never* happens. Has never happened in your experience. And no one would ever do that. That would just be wrong. Isn't there flightless bird that sticks his head in the ground and thinks that if it doesn't see the danger it can't hurt him? I know its a myth. I just can't remember that birds name. Stop the meters! Stop the meters! Stop the meters! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nategray Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 Nothing in Wow? Major Domo, what else you got? So you were in a time flagged EQ guild? Somehow I doubt it, what else you got. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlyJeff Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 If you are that good, you shouldn't need a meter to tell you that you are good. Trial and error is how you should learn the fights, not solving some math and making the fight trivial. Trial and error only works if you can measure the results. In a raid there is so much input and so little output that you cannot effectively measure an individual's input, at least not for something like damage. It can be pretty obvious to see who is standing in the fire or ignoring adds. It's hard to judge dps effectiveness outside of a group because the encounters are so different. You vary rarely run up against a mob that requires you to go into a full raid damage rotation and sustain it for several minutes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cutiecat Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 Ah.. You don't know, or haven't experienced, the bane of casual players existence; ... guild mergers. It happens all the time. And in-game friends from a casual guild get broken up because someone of the 'new leadership' decides someone can't possibly contribute to raids and they're out. Yeah. That *never* happens. Has never happened in your experience. And no one would ever do that. That would just be wrong. Isn't there flightless bird that sticks his head in the ground and thinks that if it doesn't see the danger it can't hurt him? I know its a myth. I just can't remember that birds name. Stop the meters! Stop the meters! Stop the meters! People who don't put as much effort forth don't get as far? Stop the presses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeelol Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 People who don't put as much effort forth don't get as far? Stop the presses. But but but but... it's not fair! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nategray Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 That's cool and all but would you mind actually contributing to the topic of the thread? EQ did have a combat log, or didn't it? Could you parse EQ raids or couldn't you? And what does that have to do with this game, now, in 2011? We did them without dps meters and I was responding to someone who is trying to say WOW raiding is hard, its a joke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeelol Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 We did them without dps meters and I was responding to someone who is trying to say WOW raiding is hard, its a joke. You're still pretending? Cute Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caelrie Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 Ah.. You don't know, or haven't experienced, the bane of casual players existence; ... guild mergers. It happens all the time. And in-game friends from a casual guild get broken up because someone of the 'new leadership' decides someone can't possibly contribute to raids and they're out. Yeah. That *never* happens. Has never happened in your experience. And no one would ever do that. That would just be wrong. Isn't there flightless bird that sticks his head in the ground and thinks that if it doesn't see the danger it can't hurt him? I know its a myth. I just can't remember that birds name. Stop the meters! Stop the meters! Stop the meters! You just tried to argue that casual guilds don't exist. All of your arguments are pretty much gross exaggerations. I'm not taking them seriously anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrelle Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 Just to circle back on the OP: I am truly enjoying this epic game. I thank you for not dividing the community by allowing the flood gates of mod's to be let in. Thank you truly for letting me play flash point's without people spamming a requirement. Truly Happy Holidays. BW doesn't even have a chance to "divide the community" by including the combat logs. We divide each other just by the shear mention of it. Its fascinating to watch. Its like having the argument in your head, long before the confrontation occurs, if ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aramyth Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 I also feel like pointing out that I've never had a group fail because we felt someone's DPS wasn't high enough. lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhigtimm Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 You're advocating work harder, not smarter, which doesn't make sense. I don't ENJOY dying or losing and if I can use tools to gain a more advanced understanding of the math and the mechanics that does not trivialize it, it means I understand it. So if you can look at a log and determine that boss A does x damage per strike - (y damage*points of armor) how does that not make the fight easier? If you can tell that Boss B does a raid wide aoe that hits for x damage every 12.75 seconds unless you have clicked on cube q in which case it does 1/4 x damage not make the fight easier? If you can tell that World Boss J takes 125.5 dps/sec from assassins and 1.55 dps/sec from snipers why not stack snipers and take no assassins thereby making the fight easier? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiragrim Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 People who don't put as much effort forth don't get as far? Stop the presses. "as much effort"? Yeah... some of us have real jobs and aren't 5 credit hour college students (or whatever is the minimum at your community college). You seem to be saying that players deserve to get judged harshly for not being top performers and subsequently subjected to the wasteland of PUGs. Yeah... you must be a really fun player to group with. Stop the meters! Stop the meters! Stop the meters! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trigaa Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 Just to circle back on the OP: BW doesn't even have a chance to "divide the community" by including the combat logs. We divide each other just by the shear mention of it. Its fascinating to watch. Its like having the argument in your head, long before the confrontation occurs, if ever. Dividing the community is what will kill this game, and fast. I know if I see this game going the way of WOWs elitist garbage I am going to unsubscribe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nikolu Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 That's the focus change exactly. None of the best games I've played were about the math. They were about the challenge, not pulling apart the numbers and ignoring the rest of the game. By taking a game like this and reducing it to the math, all you do is create a very, very complicated game of simon says. Boss says this, push this button, boss does that, push this other button. The challenge of a game, something I think they are doing very well at thus far, is to create situations that can be solved in multiple ways by different classes. Encounters you just barely get through by timing a stun right or using the terrain correctly. Honestly, the most fun I had in other games wasn't getting everyone together and min/maxing our way through an encounter. It was going into a difficult instance with less players than required and finding a way through it anyway. A very complicated game of simon says is what we are playing. I'm sorry but that's what this style of game is. You can "hide" it, if you want, but someone will figure it out. Your third paragraph contradicts the second. The challenge is timing a stun right now because... simon said stun right now. The challenge in standing on this rock to avoid the fire because... simon said I'm casting fire over here right now. Under manning a raid or instance doesn't have much to do with a combat log. That's artificially increasing the challenge for yourself for no reason. While I'm not saying you didn't have fun doing that, it really makes no difference if you have a damage meter or not to undertake that activity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seismax Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 "as much effort"? Yeah... some of us have real jobs and aren't 5 credit hour college students (or whatever is the minimum at your community college). You seem to be saying that players deserve to get judged harshly for not being top performers and subsequently subjected to the wasteland of PUGs. Yeah... you must be a really fun player to group with. Stop the meters! Stop the meters! Stop the meters! People gravitate towards like minded people. If that's where you end up that's just how it is, sounds like you want to have lunch with the corporate execs, even though you're still working the sales floor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrelosDarksky Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 Dividing the community is what will kill this game, and fast. I know if I see this game going the way of WOWs elitist garbage I am going to unsubscribe. It's already begun. This is just a bunch of players harping on and on about how they know so much better than the developers when it comes on how to build a game. The division is already here. I honestly did not think it would happen so soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cutiecat Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 "as much effort"? Yeah... some of us have real jobs and aren't 5 credit hour college students (or whatever is the minimum at your community college). You seem to be saying that players deserve to get judged harshly for not being top performers and subsequently subjected to the wasteland of PUGs. Yeah... you must be a really fun player to group with. Stop the meters! Stop the meters! Stop the meters! I work 55+ hrs a week and am on a work trip unable to play and am responding from my phone, so clearly I am a pimple-encrusted child because I disagree with you. People group with me because the job gets done quickly and efficiently and everyone benefits. I don't care if you want to spend 60 minutes on content that takes me 15 minutes, that is your right, but we're not villains for wanting nothing to do with your idea of 'fun'. We just want to play to win and not be spit on because slaying the dark space dragon was beyond your group's capabilities and we're zipping around on our billion dollar pixel car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nikolu Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 We did them without dps meters and I was responding to someone who is trying to say WOW raiding is hard, its a joke. Alright, so you raided with how many people? I think you mentioned 75? Question. What do you think the value of each persons contribution was? Like did you immediately fail the encounter if one of those 75 died? Or D/C'd? Or was simply making a sandwich? A TOR raid has 8 or 16 people right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiragrim Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 I also feel like pointing out that I've never had a group fail because we felt someone's DPS wasn't high enough. lol Nor have I... which is why I don't understand the usefulness of the damage meters. Even the meters that let you parse and flag a ton of activity. Raids usually wipe because some atypical event happens and someone doesn't change tactics fast enough. The guys that bother me even worse are the ones that use the meters not to ensure success, but to try to get the time down. It usually takes them eight YEARS to organize people and tell them what to do EXACTLY before even starting combat. Meters reduce the game to "press this button, then this one, wait this long, press this button". Is that fun?! NO! Fun is having a wandering mob that shouldn't have respawned sneak up during the boss encounter and somehow not only surviving but *not* getting wiped. Meters are *NOT* fun. Meters reduce the game to a huge human macro. Bioware! If you introduce combat parsing and meters, make encounters dynamic enough that they do *NOT* repeat on a regular schedule! Stop the meters! Stop the meters! Stop the meters! Stop the meters! Stop the meters! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murdaralph Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 Lets go meters lets go meters !!!!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeelol Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 Lets go meters lets go meters !!!!!!!!!!! I'm sorry. I'd go with a xD xD for greater effect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlyJeff Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 "as much effort"? Yeah... some of us have real jobs and aren't 5 credit hour college students (or whatever is the minimum at your community college). You seem to be saying that players deserve to get judged harshly for not being top performers and subsequently subjected to the wasteland of PUGs. Yeah... you must be a really fun player to group with. Stop the meters! Stop the meters! Stop the meters! What is this judging harshly? I don't think I've done anything that could be considered judging harshly, unless asking a player to improve his contributions is considered a harsh judgement. But really, all that is doing is asking that player to live up to the commitment he made when he said he wanted to contribute to the group effort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pythoris Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 You were, this topic wasn't. You dropped in a topic and started to HURP-A-DURP about your own problems. LOL What problems? Seems to me like you're the one with problems with what I said. I merely stated that I never had any need for mods to do well in an mmo, and that includes damage meters. I'm sorry if that makes you and others like you feel insecure. *shrug* But really, that's your own fault, not mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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