Queue for Scouts & Strike Fighters Only

[okiobe]

To respond to the OP, no I wouldn't like a queue that prohibits ships other people like to play. Also a good player in any ship will cause you to drop everything and engage him or die. A bad gunship doesn't make me drop everything to engage him. Only a good one. Let me run free in my scout and I'll get 10 kills in about 3 min.

 

I always see the rock, paper, scissors comparison. Is there an official source that says they tried to design it that way. Since launch there was never a rock, paper, scissors type implementation. As FridgeLM stated before 2.6 it was all battle scouts. The ship had no easily exploitable weakness. Now post 2.6 I would still say they are powerful enough to take on any ship. The only thing a battle scout should fear in a 1 v 1 is the minelayer and specifically the seismic mine. It is the only ship that can really put out enough effective DPS on the battle scout to kill it before the scout can burst him down.

 

Let's balance the ships so that everyone can play the ship they like and have fun. Buff T1 strikes and maybe give a tiny nerf to bombers and T2 scouts (although fixing bomber bugs will probably bring them close to being balanced). But always remember that the devs can't balance for skill. An attempt to balance for skill will only make the skilled players exploit any flaw in the system to keep their skill advantage.

[FridgeLM]

And your Quell is terrible at holding point compared to a bomber. So why do we even have dogfighters again?

 

Strike fighters need buffs, armor penetration needs nerfs, etc. GSF isn't perfect but it's a lot better than it was, even for strike fighters.

[Zoom_VI]

Strike fighters need buffs, armor penetration needs nerfs, etc. GSF isn't perfect but it's a lot better than it was, even for strike fighters.

 

Strikes would be even better if gunships didn't exist.

[FridgeLM]

Strikes would be even better if gunships didn't exist.

 

"This class is able to kill me, please remove them from the game."

[Fractalsponge]

"This class is able to kill me, please remove them from the game."

 

That is epic

 

Strike fighters need buffs, armor penetration needs nerfs, etc. GSF isn't perfect but it's a lot better than it was, even for strike fighters.

 

I find that since 2.6 strikes have dramatically improved. I used to run Sting whenever the situation didn't call for my Mangler, but now I have a mastered Rycer and the Sting doesn't really leave the hangar any more. The evasion nerf made the solidity of strikes matter a lot more, and made BLC less mandatory for all scenarios. I don't think strikes really need much in the way of buffs.

 

"Fixing" armor penetration is mostly about making charged plating/deflection armor worthwhile, which I think is a relatively minor thing for fixing. I certainly don't want to see bombers get any MORE tanky than they already are on the nodes in domination.

 

All that said I'd play a scout/strike only match type. I even think that an occasional "all X class" gametypes for TDM for any class would be fun. But getting cross-server and matchmaking to allow for more competitive matches regardless of faction is far and away the most important thing to do for the long term health of GSF. The game is pretty balanced at the moment ship to ship. Most of the limited issues come from stacking, and most of that can be dealt with by good play, which the high skill barrier to entry makes harder to get as people try GSF only to give up.

Edited March 13, 2014 by Fractalsponge

[Gavin_Kelvar]

Strike fighters need buffs, armor penetration needs nerfs, etc. GSF isn't perfect but it's a lot better than it was, even for strike fighters.

 

I'd say a small improvement in speed and agility would go a long way to improving the dogfight capabilities of strikers. The mediocre mobility and poor base agility are the main things I see holding them back from truly shining.

 

With the exception of rapid fire blasters (which need a serious buff) the offensive choices for strikers is pretty solid, especially once you upgrade them.

 

I think armor penetration doesn't need a nerf per se, it just needs to be removed from being on so many weapons. Proton Torpedoes, rocket pods, and heavy cannons makes sense since they're all supposed to be used against armored objectives. The rest of the stuff though doesn't make sense since they're already very powerful and/or being used against armor objectives seems a little too versatile. IMO if the devs just decreased the number of weapons with armor penetration things would be dramatically improved.

 

An across the board nerf will ultimately not solve things because it would also nerf weapons that are meant to be used against armored targets and thus decrease their effectiveness in their role (plus an across the board nerf would end up nerfing strikers quite a bit and in effect buff bombers by making it harder for strikers to kill them).

[AceFirstCav]

...

I suspect what the OP and the other whiners need to do is learn to team up. Flying a scout or strike solo at a satellite I'm defending with my drone carrier is suicide. Bringing one wingman in another scout/strike is usually suicide too. But, bring a scout/strike and a gunship and I'm in big trouble. Stop flying solo expecting to wtfpwn everything. Team up, think about tactics and just maybe you'll have fun and win a few matches.

 

So basicaly here is said, that not even 2 scout/strike are able to take down 1 bomber. You need 2 ships (which one must be gunship (which is OP in its way too) to shot down 1 bomber. But yes, thats not OP. It is of course bomber pilot skill and all others are whiners

 

Battles are decided even before start by number of bombers and gunships on each side. Only if they are equal, there is chance for fair fight. Classical old good dogfight is very rare in these days, there is always at least one camper (gunship or bomber, doesn´t matter) farming his score.

Only Scout/Fighter would be nice battle, but only Gunship/Bombers would be much more fun - trench warfare

[Gavin_Kelvar]

So basicaly here is said, that not even 2 scout/strike are able to take down 1 bomber. You need 2 ships (which one must be gunship (which is OP in its way too) to shot down 1 bomber. But yes, thats not OP. It is of course bomber pilot skill and all others are whiners

 

To be fair I've found that if I catch a bomber out in the open and without an escort I can normally down them very fast in my Type 1 striker with Ions/heavies/concussion. Heck I've solo taken out bombers in my Type 1 scout using barely upgraded rocket pods and light lasers when I've caught one out in the open and without an escort. You by no means always need 2 fighters to take out a bomber. That being said scouts really shouldn't target bombers as they lack the heavy weaponry to kill them efficiently. Especially when there are allied strikers in the area that can deal with the bomber, you might think that the concentrated firepower helps but if the bomber has any escort fighters having both strikers and scouts focus on the bomber is the fastest way to ensure that the bomber doesn't die. Namely because the escort fighters will shoot down the strikers during their attack runs and before they can do serious damage to the bomber and then they mop up the scouts.

 

Case in point I recently came from a game where the scouts on my team did a wonderful job dogfighting and keeping the enemy fighters busy (and GS busy for that matter) so I could make attack runs on a bomber at a sat without being shot at by the escorts. Because the only damage I was taking was from the bomber I was able to tank the damage they did long enough to shoot them down (and this happened multiple times during the match). It ended 1000 - 850 our win so the other team made a good account of themselves and was not horribly uneven.

 

You only really need extra fighters when you either 1) have escort fighters to deal with 2) want to dig out a bomber tick from a sat before enemy scouts/strikers can respond. Which really is to be expected in a team game and hardly unbalanced since if you want to down an ace you'll likely want to make sure any "escorts" they have are dealt with and regardless of ship class camping a sat you'll want multiple fighters so you can destroy them before reinforcements arrive.

Edited March 13, 2014 by Gavin_Kelvar

[ptwonline]

Bombers in Domination are a problem.

 

Gunships are fine except for two things:

 

1. Still too easy for them to run away

2. In small numbers they are fine, but when you get 2 or more working together they can dominate. When you see a wall of 4 gunships it's just stupid.

[Gavin_Kelvar]

Bombers in Domination are a problem.

 

The main thing I've observed that needs to be dealt with is using drones as portable cover (as Type 1 scouts did with sensor beacons pre-2.6). That's a real cheap tactic that needs to be addressed.

[AceFirstCav]

Bombers in Domination are a problem.

Gunships are fine except for two things:

1. Still too easy for them to run away

2. In small numbers they are fine, but when you get 2 or more working together they can dominate. When you see a wall of 4 gunships it's just stupid.

 

1. They could have one energy pool for weapon and engine. It would be shoot or run. Such powerfull weapon must have major energy consumption.

2. One gunship covered by another gunship is beyond limit of lowness. I´m surprised that any team not yeat come with tactic of medieval musketters. One line of gunships fire, fly little back for regen replaced by second line of gunships and this still over and over again. That would be their ultimate skill

[Ugolino]

Sadly, gunships and bombers take no skill to do well with against a group of randoms with poor coordination (ie: most matches ever), which is why they have their own dedicated defense brigade. They're the cancer killing off GSF.

[Itkovian]

And your Quell is terrible at holding point compared to a bomber. So why do we even have dogfighters again?

 

Because my Pike is actually wonderful at killing the Bomber holding that sat. It's also good at killing that Gunship hitting my bomber friend who's holding his own sat. And it happens to do pretty well killing that Scout attacking my Gunship friend who is trying to clear the minefield around another sat.

 

And that Scout? It's good at killing the Gunship trying to clear the point, and has an edge against the Strike trying to do all the above.

 

That's why we have dogfighters. There is a role balance, and it's pretty decent.

 

Sure, it can be broken, and certain combos are currently "easy mode", but each role has its purpose in theory... even it's not quite perfect yet. I personally think having more skilled Strike fighter pilots would make it easier to handle the bombers.

 

My guess is the reason it's not the case is two-fold: in 2.5 people were used to Scouts being supreme, and view Strikes as their dim cousins, and also the "generic multirole" nature of Strike is less appealing or not as evidently useful to some than specialized fighters (if they think of Strikes as pure dogfighters, it's understandable they'd assume Scouts are more useful, and of course the Bomber and Gunships have their unique shticks going for them).

 

Thank you.

[Zoom_VI]

If your pike is shooting down gunships with ease then either your god's gift to strike fighters or those gunships are morons. Edited March 13, 2014 by Zoom_VI

[Korithras]

Use the LOS & EMP Luke !

 

Against good opponents gunships and bombers require a lot of skill to survive, and try to kill something.

 

On gunships : Against people that know how to "fly casual" you get only limited windows of opporunity to shoot them before they are either in your face or out of range / LOS.

 

On bombers : Against people that just do not fly into your mines like lemnings, if you get caught out in the open without full engine power pool or fly around obstacles in a predictable way your only chance of killing them is by hoping they get blinded while flying through the big dust cloud at where you used to be before and crash into something nearby.

 

Well if you are not playing against these kind of people then blame matchmaking system and hop on your bomber to go chase those scary gunships

 

How ignorant can you be? A strike fighter or a scout requires far more skill than the gunship or bomber ever will. Plain and simple. As for "do not fly into your mines like lemmings" then you tell me, how exactly does one get close enough to take a satellite in domination without being ripped to shreds by both mines AND defense turrets? Particularly when the drones and turrets have a longer range than most strike fighter and scout weapons?

 

The whole point I was suggesting is that a strike fighter and scout only queue would be for the best GSF pilots around to prove that they are the best. Anybody can sit at 15k meters and pick off targets or mine up a satellite and let the drones do their fighting for them. But you need "real" skill to chase down an opponent who is just as fast, maneuverable and armed as you are, to take them out before they or one of their wingmen get you.

[Korithras]

OP you can take my bombers away from me but I'll still kick your *** in my scouts.

 

If you can't kill a gunship with a scout you're doing it wrong. If you're trying to kill a bomber with a scout you're probably doing it wrong (unless you have wingmen).

 

I suspect what the OP and the other whiners need to do is learn to team up. Flying a scout or strike solo at a satellite I'm defending with my drone carrier is suicide. Bringing one wingman in another scout/strike is usually suicide too. But, bring a scout/strike and a gunship and I'm in big trouble. Stop flying solo expecting to wtfpwn everything. Team up, think about tactics and just maybe you'll have fun and win a few matches.

 

I'm not saying I can't kill a single gunship or a single bomber one on one. The problem is that there are always multiples of them and when there's multiples there's no point in even trying because the scouts or strike fighters will never get close enough before they're torn apart.

 

As for your statement where you'll still take me in a scout? Bring it. >

[jankiel]

I'd love this idea but I know it won't happen

[zaskar]

The whole point I was suggesting is that a strike fighter and scout only queue would be for the best GSF pilots around to prove that they are the best. Anybody can sit at 15k meters and pick off targets or mine up a satellite and let the drones do their fighting for them. But you need "real" skill to chase down an opponent who is just as fast, maneuverable and armed as you are, to take them out before they or one of their wingmen get you.

 

You really don't get it or you play on a server with all bads. A good bomber pilot gets her kills with her lasers, the drones and mines are force multipliers allowing her to strategically hold a location. A gunship is designed to deny a location.

 

They both do the same job one from range, one from melee range.

 

Learn the tools given to kill these ships and stop whining.

[Zoom_VI]

You really don't get it or you play on a server with all bads. A good bomber pilot gets her kills with her lasers, the drones and mines are force multipliers allowing her to strategically hold a location. A gunship is designed to deny a location.

 

They both do the same job one from range, one from melee range.

 

Learn the tools given to kill these ships and stop whining.

 

Kinda like the best tool to kill gunships and to kill bombers is guess what? another gunship

 

Killing gunships with scouts only works on lolbad GS. Otherwise the scout would require their entire build to focused around the single purpose of 1v1'ing a gunship in order to succeed against a marginally competent GS. On a side note, you do not need specialized builds to kill strikes, scouts and even bombers. Cuz yaknow gunships are entitled.

Edited March 14, 2014 by Zoom_VI

[Itkovian]

Kinda like the best tool to kill gunships and to kill bombers is guess what? another gunship

 

That does not match my experience at all. Gunship vs Gunship is an equal contest... Scout vs Gunship is definitely in favour of the Scout, at least when the Scout is actively hunting the Gunship... and I dare say the same goes for Strikes.

 

Gunships are snipers, they depend on getting the drop on people with a long range shot... when a dogfighter knows the gunship's location and goes hunting, that Gunship knows its time to go defensive.

 

Now, I grant that good gunship pilots can be deadly at short range too, due to Burst Lasers (whoever decided to give gunships Burst lasers should be taken out and shot, most ludicrous decision I've seen), but overall the edge lies with the Scout (and Strike, to a lesser extent). But even the best GS knows its time to get away when a good scout is on top of them.

Edited March 14, 2014 by Itkovian

[Armonddd]

If your pike is shooting down gunships with ease then either your god's gift to strike fighters or those gunships are morons.

 

Pretty much the former. I have no idea how he does it (with torps, even!), but he's amazing.

 

Also Itk, gunship v gunship is lost by whoever screws up their approach. That's pretty much the entirety of it in 1v1.

Edited March 14, 2014 by Armonddd

[Itkovian]

Pretty much the former. I have no idea how he does it (with torps, even!), but he's amazing.

 

Also Itk, gunship v gunship is lost by whoever screws up their approach. That's pretty much the entirety of it in 1v1.

 

I don't see the post you're quoting in the first place... was it deleted?

 

[never mind, found it, thought he replied to my last post... that was confusing. ]

 

But it's not that bloody hard. You just go in and kill 'em. Quad lasers, clusters, if they barrel roll protorp them. Just, you know, don't go at it head-on. Hit from the side, don't let up. The danger is when they're got buddies guarding them.

 

Granted, the _very best_ gunships are definitely a threat at short range, you gotta watch out for those burst lasers (shot is too kind, drawn and quartered I say!), but overall with clusters and quads you have the edge at close range. At that point you're in a dogfight, and your scout or strike is a better dogfighter than any gunship.

Edited March 14, 2014 by Itkovian

[Ramalina]

I'd say a small improvement in speed and agility would go a long way to improving the dogfight capabilities of strikers. The mediocre mobility and poor base agility are the main things I see holding them back from truly shining.

 

As they are, you can build a fast strike or an agile strike. I haven't had much luck with attempting balanced builds, but I haven't tried them recently either. I should probably give them another look.

 

I find a Pike works well with a long range missile loadout and a fast ship build. It competes with scouts on speed and range and with a standoff weapons loadout it doesn't really need more than mediocre maneuverability.

 

I also find that a Starguard with an agile build can hold its own against other ships in a dogfight. It feels a bit weaker than a Pike in overall build though, because while there are Pike builds that do just fine without much maneuverability, the lack of speed and range in a Starguard agile enough to dogfight does have a moderate negative impact. It's hard to get from node to node in a timely manner in domination, and you have to stick close to cover or you become much too vulnerable to gunships. In a Starguard built for dogfighting the most dangerous weapon an opponent can have is an ion railgun.

 

Still, you wouldn't want a huge buff to strikes otherwise they'd loose the title of, "Only ship class that hasn't generated lots of 'nerf them' threads." Speed and agility come out of the same upgrade budget, and I like that tradeoff. If there were a buff I'd start with something moderate. Say maybe 30% of the difference between scouts and strikes. Amount of distance that one can boost is really where an agility Strike build falls down. Engine pool, boost efficiency, or power regen would be the places to look at I think. Might be tricky to help a dogfighting Starguard without making fast Pikes the fastest ships in the game by a hefty margin though.

[Davionix]

How ignorant can you be? A strike fighter or a scout requires far more skill than the gunship or bomber ever will. Plain and simple. As for "do not fly into your mines like lemmings" then you tell me, how exactly does one get close enough to take a satellite in domination without being ripped to shreds by both mines AND defense turrets? Particularly when the drones and turrets have a longer range than most strike fighter and scout weapons?

 

The whole point I was suggesting is that a strike fighter and scout only queue would be for the best GSF pilots around to prove that they are the best. Anybody can sit at 15k meters and pick off targets or mine up a satellite and let the drones do their fighting for them. But you need "real" skill to chase down an opponent who is just as fast, maneuverable and armed as you are, to take them out before they or one of their wingmen get you.

 

Go play a gunship or bomber against competent enemies and come back to tell us your experiences.

 

If there are mines, turrets and bomber at satellite you open up on turrets first because mines activation range is shorter than range of turrets. If mines are palced in such a way that you can not get in range to hit turrets without triggering mines it means mines are out in the open and thus you can shoot them with your lasers.

 

Or you can go easy mode and get on a strike with emp missile or a gunship with aoe ion.

 

If you try to go in close range with a strike or scout to mines you are going to have a bad time.

 

I disagree with your notion that "Real" skill is chasing down an opponent who is just as fast, maneuverable and armed as you are, to take them out before they or one of their wingmen get you. It just shows that you are not efficient and instead of applying right amount of force at right time you try to win by attrition.

 

For me "Real" skill is to out-fly an opponent who is faster and more maneuverable than you are long until help arrives or an opening happens for you to kill / escape from them.

[NotThatOne]

Another Korithas rage thread? He's cut back, it seems.

 

Let me some it up:

 

Korithas: SIT STILL AND DIE FOR ME!!!11!!!1 EVERY GAME MECHANIC I DON'T UNDERSTAND IS OPED AS F%$&! I CAN'T EVEN LOLSCOUT RIGHT!

 

Every other GSFer: Shut up and L2P