Korithras Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 (edited) Since Bombers are bugged and imbalanced and completely ruin domination games, and gunships have always been OP and cheap as hell, I would propose a queue for GSF matches where the only ships allowed for the game are the scout and strike fighter-class ships. In my personal experience, the most fun and most exihlerating matches have always been the ones where it's few to no gunships or bombers, because it's all about pure dogfighting and skill of the pilots. Bombers and gunships don't require nearly as much skill as it does to actually hunt down and kill your opponents, and literally force you to drop whatever you're doing to deal with them. So let's have a queue for those of us who actually have skill at piloting, and want to go up against other skilled pilots. Edited March 13, 2014 by Korithras Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kain_Turinbar Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 (edited) Since Bombers are bugged and imbalanced and completely ruin domination games, and gunships have always been OP and cheap as hell, I would propose a queue for GSF matches where the only ships allowed for the game are the scout and strike fighter-class ships. In my personal experience, the most fun and most exihlerating matches have always been the ones where it's few to no gunships or bombers, because it's all about pure dogfighting and skill of the pilots. Bombers and gunships don't require nearly as much skill as it does to actually hunt down and kill your opponents, and literally force you to drop whatever you're doing to deal with them. o let's have a queue for those of us who actually have skill at piloting, and want to go up against other skilled pilots. I was in a TDM the other night where there were no bombers and gunships on either side and it was the only match of that kind I had ever played. It most certainly was fun and closely contested, believe the final score was 39-37. It was a nice challenge, that's for sure. Usually I just single out a Gunship and farm them all match. Edited March 13, 2014 by Kain_Turinbar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armonddd Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 As strongly as I believe that bombers and gunships are poorly designed, broken, and can't be balanced without changing the elements that make those classes unique... no. Purely dogfighting would quickly become stale. In Domination, lack of gunships and bombers would mean that any space that wasn't within capture range of a satellite is essentially meaningless unless your team is getting farmed. In TDM, this would mean that battles would turn into one team forming a killball rolling around the map while the other team gets farmed. Gunships fill the vital role of expanding the fighting space of a match. Bombers fill the team support and defense role, and as buggy and overpowered as it is currently, it's a legitimate playstyle that I can totally understand BioWare catering to. If neither of these existed, matches would get predictable and thus stale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Korithras Posted March 13, 2014 Author Share Posted March 13, 2014 Gunships fill the vital role of expanding the fighting space of a match. Bombers fill the team support and defense role, and as buggy and overpowered as it is currently, it's a legitimate playstyle that I can totally understand BioWare catering to. If neither of these existed, matches would get predictable and thus stale. Gunships might fill that role but they also, as I said, force you to drop whatever it is you're doing to take care of them, or you're dead. The same goes with bombers. It might get stale to somebody like you however for alot of people, bombers and gunships are hated and annoying because the former requires no skill at all in terms of chasing down your opponent and killing them, just lay mines and guns everywhere and let a computer do the work for you. The latter is less dogfigthing and just shooting ducks at a carnival. So I think we're going to have to agree to disagree here on whether or not they're necessary for a match to be fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armonddd Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 It might get stale to somebody like you however for alot of people... That's a fair argument, I suppose. I'll take it as a compliment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavin_Kelvar Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 (edited) In my personal experience, the most fun and most exihlerating matches have always been the ones where it's few to no gunships or bombers, because it's all about pure dogfighting and skill of the pilots. Bombers and gunships don't require nearly as much skill as it does to actually hunt down and kill your opponents, and literally force you to drop whatever you're doing to deal with them. So let's have a queue for those of us who actually have skill at piloting, and want to go up against other skilled pilots. To be fair if the striker and scout pilots on your team are actually skilled the bombers will only force the strikers to stop dogfighting and engage them. On a decently skilled team the scouts will not drop everything to engage the bomber but will instead continue dogfighting and focus on keeping the bomber's escort fighters off the backs of friendly strikers making attack runs on the bomber. Obviously if the scouts take out all the escort fighters they'll assist with the bomber if it isn't already dead or engage the bomber as a target of opportunity if it's the closest thing and the strikers have brought the shields down and the bomber's hull is below 25%. Part of the reason that bombers are such a problem is because everyone drops what they're doing to attack the bomber. Scouts don't have the heavy weaponry of strikers so it's going to be difficult at best, futile at worst for a scout to take on a bomber. Meanwhile the strikers that do have the heavy weaponry will be torn to pieces during their attack runs by the escort fighters because the scouts on their team are also attacking the bomber instead of dogfighting to keep the escort fighters busy. Edited March 13, 2014 by Gavin_Kelvar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zaskar Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 From now on there will be no people above six foot tall allowed to play basketball as a point guard or forward. All players over five foot eight may not enter the key. See how stupid that sounds? It's the same as anyone whining about any role in the current game. Here I'll give you a tip, don't rush a freaking bomber with its ordanance deployed. They added EMP weapons for a reason. Here is another tip, don't rush a gunship head on, choose another vector, get close, use quads and targeting telemetry or burst and blaster overcharge along with rockets to kill one dead in three seconds. Learn to play the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davionix Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 (edited) Gunships might fill that role but they also, as I said, force you to drop whatever it is you're doing to take care of them, or you're dead. The same goes with bombers. It might get stale to somebody like you however for alot of people, bombers and gunships are hated and annoying because the former requires no skill at all in terms of chasing down your opponent and killing them, just lay mines and guns everywhere and let a computer do the work for you. The latter is less dogfigthing and just shooting ducks at a carnival. So I think we're going to have to agree to disagree here on whether or not they're necessary for a match to be fun. Use the LOS & EMP Luke ! Against good opponents gunships and bombers require a lot of skill to survive, and try to kill something. On gunships : Against people that know how to "fly casual" you get only limited windows of opporunity to shoot them before they are either in your face or out of range / LOS. On bombers : Against people that just do not fly into your mines like lemnings, if you get caught out in the open without full engine power pool or fly around obstacles in a predictable way your only chance of killing them is by hoping they get blinded while flying through the big dust cloud at where you used to be before and crash into something nearby. Well if you are not playing against these kind of people then blame matchmaking system and hop on your bomber to go chase those scary gunships Edited March 13, 2014 by Davionix Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattycutts Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 my main is a gunship, but i fly all the classes, each and everyone has its unique style and it brings to the game. Last night was in a match heavy with gunships and bombers, some of which were good players, i taosted 4 gunships, 1 bomber b4 i finally died on my gunship. how u think that match would have gone without a gunship like me, problem is so many gunships, stike fighters, scouts that either have little to no skill and cry OP all time or havnt trie dand tested enough. Reason i fly all the ships, and there all mastered and i have a char that has zero mods, is i learn from the bottom to top the strengths and weaknesses of each and every ship. example, 3 bombers sat around a satalillte no one been able to budge them, me on a gunship, ion railgun either any of the bombers i see or a turret, how long b4 they get frustrated and brake cover bamm there dead. scouts, the number of times i see one go head on towards a gunship without no zig zagging, no speed boost then come to complete stop in front of me lol dead scout lol. The most fun matches i have had are ones that have some of every class in them, so much fun, no gunships and no bombers hell no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeLM Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 (edited) tl;dr - "Let's return to the bad old days when the only ship worth flying was a battle scout." Go away. Edited March 13, 2014 by FridgeLM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verain Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 tl;dr - "Let's return to the bad old days when the only ship worth flying was a battle scout." Go away. Excellent thread summary, and sadly, it summarizes a heck of a lot of threads on this forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoom_VI Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 Excellent thread summary, and sadly, it summarizes a heck of a lot of threads on this forum. Ah yes another offhand elitism comment from the gunship section. Also the only reason FF was so damn potent back then was because of how potent evasion and unnerfed dfield was plus the potency of BLC in dominion. Both of those issues have been nerfed or diluted. imo I think gsf would have been better has strike/bomber/scout under the traditional roles, I have no idea why BW felt compelled to try to reinvent the wheel with gunships Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeLM Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 (edited) Ah yes another offhand elitism comment from the gunship section. Also the only reason FF was so damn potent back then was because of how potent evasion and unnerfed dfield was plus the potency of BLC in dominion. Both of those issues have been nerfed or diluted. Wrong. I fly a Quell and both bombers. The reasons battle scouts are (still) so dominant in traditional dogfighting are the power of their lasers and the fact they have a power increase tied to their 1 ability rather than a sidegrade, the fact they get the best laser variant (BLC), their speed, turn rate, engine power and regen. Given equal pilot skill, battle scout will wreck literally every other scout and strike fighter in existence because it's flat-out better at dogfighting by a considerable margin. That's why I summed up this thread's sentiment in one sentence. Battle scout pilots on these forums seem to have no self-awareness concerning how stupid broken they were, and still are. Thankfully, bombers now counter the hell out of them. Edited March 13, 2014 by FridgeLM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoom_VI Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 Battle scouts are also incapable of doing anything other than dogfighting. notice I said bombers are fine? Because they add depth to it and bring in value to multirole platform that is strikes. The problem is with gunships + bombers is that between the two ships they invalidate dogfighting altogether which takes both scouts and strikes out of viability. If they implemented ranked GSF tomorrow every top team would be running pure gunships and bombers, the only time scouts would make a appearance is at the beginning of dominion for the initial node grab, beyond that they would have no further purpose. Strikes would not even be fielded at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irongut Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 (edited) OP you can take my bombers away from me but I'll still kick your *** in my scouts. If you can't kill a gunship with a scout you're doing it wrong. If you're trying to kill a bomber with a scout you're probably doing it wrong (unless you have wingmen). I suspect what the OP and the other whiners need to do is learn to team up. Flying a scout or strike solo at a satellite I'm defending with my drone carrier is suicide. Bringing one wingman in another scout/strike is usually suicide too. But, bring a scout/strike and a gunship and I'm in big trouble. Stop flying solo expecting to wtfpwn everything. Team up, think about tactics and just maybe you'll have fun and win a few matches. Edited March 13, 2014 by Irongut Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psandak Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 (edited) I was in a TDM the other night where there were no bombers and gunships on either side and it was the only match of that kind I had ever played. It most certainly was fun and closely contested, believe the final score was 39-37. It was a nice challenge, that's for sure. Usually I just single out a Gunship and farm them all match. On the other hand, the other night I was in a TDM battle where several bombers and gunships were obviously teamed up on the other side, and my side had our share of gunships and bombers (albeit fewer "good" ones and solo queued) and we won 50-46. My team realized that we could not take on that team of gunships and bombers so we avoided them when we could. The point is with situational awareness and teamwork gunship+bomber can be significantly mitigated. As to the OP's suggestion: how would you go about making this happen? As it stands the queue system does not take into account what ships you have. A completely separate queue would have to be created. Do you really think that's gonna happen? It would be akin to a ground PvP queue where no scoundrel/operative healers are allowed. Not possible. Let's be honest here, right now gunship+bomber is OP. But given time attempts at balancing will be made. In fact the first wave is due with 2.7 (longer CDs and higher energy consumption for evasion abilities; gunships will take longer to get into position and will have to manually evade more often). Edited March 13, 2014 by psandak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeLM Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 (edited) The problem is with gunships + bombers is that between the two ships they invalidate dogfighting altogether which takes both scouts and strikes out of viability. Please. Pre-2.6 was far, far worse for strike fighters. You're just myopic and think that what's bad for battle scouts must also be bad for strike fighters. Do you want to know what the only viable strategy was in my Quell against a team that knew what it was doing? It was to hug a satellite like a bomber and spam shield power converter in order to keep control of it, all the while hoping my team's gunships and battle scouts could kill things - because trying to kill something risked death and losing the node. Strike fighters could not, and still can't, adequately dogfight battle scouts. With bombers countering battle scouts combined with how well strike fighters counter bombers, however, strike fighters now have a viable attack role that doesn't involve node hugging. Edited March 13, 2014 by FridgeLM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoom_VI Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 Please. Pre-2.6 was far, far worse for strike fighters. You're just myopic and think that what's bad for battle scouts must also be bad for strike fighters. Do you want to know what the only viable strategy was in my Quell against a team that knew what it was doing? It was to hug a satellite like a bomber and spam shield power converter in order to keep control of it, all the while hoping my team's gunships and battle scouts could kill things. Strike fighters could not, and still can't, adequately dogfight battle scouts. With bombers countering battle scouts combined with how well strike fighters counter bombers, however, strike fighters now have a viable attack role that doesn't involve node hugging. Please L2Read I said bombers are a necessary counter to force gameplay off of pure dogfighting superiority. Gunships however make no sense in the current implementation since unlike scouts they have no counter and counter another branch of ship. (bombers) Its like rock/paper/scissors where gunships are rock and paper is not implemented. If you where somehow reading into my post anything else your just being mistaken. Also anything a pike can do a gunship can do better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magecutter Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 (edited) ... ...Here is another tip, don't rush a gunship head on, choose another vector, get close, use quads and targeting telemetry or burst and blaster overcharge along with rockets to kill one dead in three seconds lol, actually I rush GS's head on all the time in my skybolt (tho your point is still valid). it's built to take out semi-stationary or stationary targets and survive. works pretty well over all. (bombers are very hard (suicide) to charge and require different tactics.. multiple hit and run strafes with rocket pods is one way) Battle scouts are also incapable of doing anything other than dogfighting... The problem is with gunships + bombers is that between the two ships they invalidate dogfighting altogether which takes both scouts and strikes out of viability. battle scouts are not really built for space superiority, dogfighting. they're more a fast intercept hit and run striker imo. obviously they can and do dogfight very well but it's not their primary roll. they were designed to be the counter to gunships and still do that very well. (bombers require more work if you solo them and as another poster said are easiest to take down with a wingman). Edited March 13, 2014 by magecutter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llama-Eight Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 Gunships however make no sense in the current implementation since unlike scouts they have no counter and counter another branch of ship. (bombers) Its like rock/paper/scissors where gunships are rock and paper is not implemented. As has been said many time by many people, running up towards a gunship is suicide, flanking them is not. This isn't Charge of the Light Brigade here, you don't have to run headlong into the canon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoom_VI Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 battle scouts are not really built for space superiority, dogfighting. they're more a fast intercept hit and run striker imo. obviously they can and do dogfight very well but it's not their primary roll. they were designed to be the counter to gunships and still do that very well. (bombers require more work if you solo them and as another poster said are easiest to take down with a wingman). wat Flashfires are only good against gunships compared to strikes. They lack the means to stop a gunship from barrel rolling to victory. Novas are better since they at least have a lockdown tool. The best craft in game to take a gunship is another gunship. Just because baddie gunships die to scouts doesn't make scouts their counter. battle scouts counter strikes if anything and strikes sure as hell don't counter gunships in any meaningful way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Itkovian Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 tl;dr - "Let's return to the bad old days when the only ship worth flying was a battle scout." This. Do we forget the meta in 2.5? Where the absolute best thing to fly was the Flashfire/Sting, as it could take out gunships and is of course the best dogfighter? The introduction of bombers actually did a lot of good for the game balance, giving a counter to the scouts, and letting the Strike's "multi-role" capability actually mean something (Strikes do well against all roles... just not as well as the actual counter to these roles). The solution with bombers lies not in removing them, but in fixing certain issues (mostly to do with bomber stacking). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoom_VI Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 Oh and for the record I think the OP made this thread as a protest against bombers and gunships, not as a serious consideration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeLM Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 Also anything a pike can do a gunship can do better. Missile strike fighters are far more effective under 10k meters and are way better at not dying at that range too. It's why gunships couldn't hold a point pre-2.6 like my Quell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoom_VI Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 Missile strike fighters are far more effective under 10k meters and are way better at not dying at that range too. It's why gunships couldn't hold a point pre-2.6 like my Quell. And your Quell is terrible at holding point compared to a bomber. So why do we even have dogfighters again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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