Palpatine's Death.

[jaytdasme]

There are some factors to consider as to why it was rather easy for Vader.

 

1. Palps was completely focused on torturing/killing Luke.

 

2. He thought Vader couldn't be turned from the darkside, so he had no reason to think that Vader was gonna turn against him.

 

1. Someone of Palpatine's caliber doesn't get to where he was by letting his guard down that much. Jedi and sith as a rule tend to not conentrate on one thing and ignore the rest of their surroundings. That's why we oftensee fights where they are fighting like a dozen droids at once. So, unless the were like literally shoulder to shoulder i suppose you could argue he didn't quite have enough time to react.. then.. maybe. but it doesn't see clear to me how close Vader was. But any movement at all should have Sparked Sidous's attention/reaction. At the very least a "hey, what are you doing!?.. Sto...ahhhhh..."

 

2. Again this is speculative vs then and now knowledge. We now know that Vader spent a lot of time plotting to overthrow and defeat Sidious.. and Sidious was fully aware of this as it is the way of the Sith. But, at the time of the Movie's production, the exact degree of this relationship was vague at best. So possibly....

I'm not necessarily debating what happened. Just, how it happened.

Edited March 12, 2014 by jaytdasme

[Maaruin]

But it then creates a bit of a paradox... Showing Vader nearly effortlessly toss his Sith master like that really begs the question; why didn't he do that long ago? That couldn't possibly have been his only viable opening... Which pretty much forces the Sidious build up to be created and making him out to be such a bid badazz so he could in a sense, keep Vader on a leash. If Vader feared to challenge him, it would undoubtedly leave us to assume that Sidious is more powerful and thusly ending him they way he did still makes little since even if the newer data on Sidious is moot. Again, Your right.. not his movie, not about him.. but still... they could have done it better. lol

 

You are right, it is a bit of a paradox I hadn't noticed before. I do have a somewhat mystic explanation, but it is only partly based on the movie and partly based on speculation:

 

Sidious was more powerful than Vader, but not extremely more powerful. (If Luke had joined Vader in ESB they could have defeated the Emperor together.) While Sidious does have strong force abilites, his primary edge is his foresight. He claims that he has predected and planned all the events until Vader brought Luke to him.

Because he is so good at this, he would be prepared for every betrayal from Vader's side and able to fend it off. But Vader turning back to the light side, that was something he could not predict. Even Yoda and Obi-Wan wanted Luke to kill Vader, not redeem him. All of them thought bringing Vader back to the light was impossible. Only Luke clung to this foolish hope.

So when the Emperor tortured Luke, he had one blind spot in his foresight. And this blindspot allowed Vader to kill him.

 

(When Vader had Sidious in his grasp, Sidious did try to defend himself. And Vader did collaps from the damage the lightning did only moments after throwing him down. So with his surprise attack Vader seized the advantage for a short time, but this time was just enough.)

 

It's a little similar to Lord of the Rings (SPOILERS by the way): Sauron lost because (a) he couldn't imagine anyone would try to destroy the ring instead of using it and (b) he hadn't thought Hobbits where important, so he didn't bother looking for the Ring among them.

Sauron and Sidious were evil and could comprehend good only to a certain extend, which allowed others to exploit a weakness they hadn't noticed.

 

 

But as I said, mostly speculation. I'm not sure if the EU supports this.

[jaytdasme]

i get what you're saying and i totally agree. But, Good or Evil, either way he should have at least at some point expected a betrayal. Even if it wasn't for the sake of returning to the light, Sidious shouldn't have completely ruled out the possibility Vader might just back-stab him then finish Luke off himself. Again... it's the nature of the sith. An endless Cycle of usurping the reigning master by betrayal. Granted, Sidious (like most of them) didn't plan on being overthrown and wanted to live and rule forever, but he knew what he was getting into the second he became a dark lord and murdered his own master. Seems like Sith 101 to me: trust no one. especially not your apprentice.

[Maaruin]

i get what you're saying and i totally agree. But, Good or Evil, either way he should have at least at some point expected a betrayal. Even if it wasn't for the sake of returning to the light, Sidious shouldn't have completely ruled out the possibility Vader might just back-stab him then finish Luke off himself. Again... it's the nature of the sith. An endless Cycle of usurping the reigning master by betrayal. Granted, Sidious (like most of them) didn't plan on being overthrown and wanted to live and rule forever, but he knew what he was getting into the second he became a dark lord and murdered his own master. Seems like Sith 101 to me: trust no one. especially not your apprentice.

 

And that's the point where I have nothing to offer. The Sith's endless circle of usurping the master hadn't been thought of when the original trilogy was made. Personally, I don't like that concept that much. Betrayal should happen more often among Sith, but did it need to become their preferred method of succession?

 

One could argue that Palpatine was prepared for typical Sith betrayal through his foresight. If Vader had tried to use the moment for that, he would have seen it moments before it happened. But his dark side powered skills of precognition simply didn't work when predicting turns to the light side.

The decision to rely entirely on foresight to protect him was unwise, but in his arrogance he thought that it was enough.

[jaytdasme]

And that's the point where I have nothing to offer. The Sith's endless circle of usurping the master hadn't been thought of when the original trilogy was made. Personally, I don't like that concept that much. Betrayal should happen more often among Sith, but did it need to become their preferred method of succession?

 

One could argue that Palpatine was prepared for typical Sith betrayal through his foresight. If Vader had tried to use the moment for that, he would have seen it moments before it happened. But his dark side powered skills of precognition simply didn't work when predicting turns to the light side.

The decision to rely entirely on foresight to protect him was unwise, but in his arrogance he thought that it was enough.

 

Ah i see.. So he uses his darkness for anticipating more evil, but since Vader's intent wasn't for evil's sake, Sidious wasn't prepared for his assault.. makes sense i suppose.

 

Not a fan of the Dark side Infighting either but the more i think about it the more i get it.. It was Bane's understanding that As a Sith lord you train an apprentice who will one day be stronger than you and take your place and then that Sith lord with train an appreciate to kill him and so on and so fourth making each more powerful than the last until you have One supreme Sith who's too powerful to be overthrown and rules indefinitely. Obviously everyone embracing the darkside is power hungry so they will always have infighting for rule. But this at least attempts to have some sort of control and not have 2 weak sith lords team up and kill the reigning master and then get taken out by superior jedi or a flock of underlings. In theory this sort of works out as we see with Palpatine.

 

A bit bitter for my tastes.. I personally wouldn't want to join knowing i'd likely be murdered before old age and in a constant state of paranoia.. but i get the system.

[Maaruin]

Ah i see.. So he uses his darkness for anticipating more evil, but since Vader's intent wasn't for evil's sake, Sidious wasn't prepared for his assault.. makes sense i suppose.

 

Exactly

 

Not a fan of the Dark side Infighting either but the more i think about it the more i get it.. It was Bane's understanding that As a Sith lord you train an apprentice who will one day be stronger than you and take your place and then that Sith lord with train an appreciate to kill him and so on and so fourth making each more powerful than the last until you have One supreme Sith who's too powerful to be overthrown and rules indefinitely. Obviously everyone embracing the darkside is power hungry so they will always have infighting for rule. But this at least attempts to have some sort of control and not have 2 weak sith lords team up and kill the reigning master and then get taken out by superior jedi or a flock of underlings. In theory this sort of works out as we see with Palpatine.

 

A bit bitter for my tastes.. I personally wouldn't want to join knowing i'd likely be murdered before old age and in a constant state of paranoia.. but i get the system.

 

In theory it does make sense, but Sith don't have to be like this.

 

The Dread Masters don't have closely connected minds instead of infighting. And IMO they manage to be just as strong, just as dark side and also almost as scary as Sidious.

Exar Kun and Ulic Qel-Droma became friends after the battle for who leads the Sith was decided. They wouldn't think of betraying each other.

 

So... maybe I just want to say that I'd like to see more variety among the Sith.

[Kaedusz]

Not everyone can have a spectacular death.

 

Spectacular is not the objective.

The objective is not being embarrassing.

Edited March 13, 2014 by Kaedusz

[Beniboybling]

To be honest even if Vader hadn't thrown Palpatine down the reactor shaft and Luke had died. Both Vader and Sidious would have died when the Death Star was destroyed anyway - Palpatine was in a very vulnerable spot.

 

Honestly he was taking a massive risk being on the station in the first place.

[jaytdasme]

To be honest even if Vader hadn't thrown Palpatine down the reactor shaft and Luke had died. Both Vader and Sidious would have died when the Death Star was destroyed anyway - Palpatine was in a very vulnerable spot.

 

Honestly he was taking a massive risk being on the station in the first place.

 

and that... would have been a much more satisfying death. Still lame cus it would have still been a very circumstantial death and hardly tactful or skill related. (Like slipping on a banana peel into a wood chipper...etc) but like guys said before that would have been a little less embarrassing for him. (Albeit marginally)

Edited March 13, 2014 by jaytdasme

[Beniboybling]

and that... would have been a much cooler death. Still lame cus it would have still been a very circumstantial death and hardly tactful or skill related. (Like slipping on a banana peel into a wood chipper...etc) but like guys said before that would have been a little less embarrassing for him. (Albeit marginally)

I think being killed in an impossible to predict double cross at the hands of your Sith apprentice is less embarrassing than being defeated by a ragtag band of rebels and ewoks on a station just moments ago you had claimed to be "perfectly safe." Not that the topic of death could be so trivialized by the word "embarrassing" lol.

 

Altogether I thought it was a perfectly reasonable, possible and thematically satisfying end for Sidious.

[jaytdasme]

]I think being killed in an impossible to predict double cross at the hands of your Sith apprentice [/b]is less embarrassing than being defeated by a ragtag band of rebels and ewoks on a station just moments ago you had claimed to be "perfectly safe." Not that the topic of death could be so trivialized by the word "embarrassing" lol.

 

Altogether I thought it was a perfectly reasonable, possible and thematically satisfying end for Sidious.

That part i get and i'm fine with. the 50 second toss off the bridge is what sucked. Need something a bit more imaginative. Or at the very least not make it look effortless for vader. Could he have slowly force gripped him over or tried to repel the lightening first or distracted him long enough for he and luke to force him over or something like that...

 

Also, we now know he didn't ultimately die there so it was much more so "embarrassing" for him than it would be for us mere mortals.

Edited March 13, 2014 by jaytdasme

[Fyurii]

Was watching some fights scenes on Youtube and came across Palpatine's defeat and well..It was so unsatisfying...I wish Lucus would release an alternate scene where he's instead maybe Luke and Vader impale him together or something more dramatic. It was so anti-climatic.

 

1 = 1983

2 = Vader didn't have a lightsaber because his 'saber hand and 'saber were at the bottom of the tower

3 = The man's son was being tortured to death in front of him, and he did the only thing he could - Hurl the old sod to his death to save his son, which in turn cost him his life. It doesn't get more dramatic than that.

 

Lucas screwed about enough with that scene already with the entirely pointless addition of another "nooooooo" for the Blu-Ray release.

 

the 50 second toss off the bridge is what sucked. Need something a bit more imaginative. Or at the very least not make it look effortless for vader.

 

He had already been shown holding a man off the ground with one hand round the guy's neck for an extended period of time before breaking his neck and tossing him aside like a piece of rubbish.

One arm, not both. Lifting papa-Palpatine with both arms wouldn't be a problem unless the old bag was played by Dom DeLuise or Marlon Brando before their deaths - Old & badly overweight.

Edited March 13, 2014 by Fyurii

[Beniboybling]

That part i get and i'm fine with. the 50 second toss off the bridge is what sucked. Need something a bit more imaginative. Or at the very least not make it look effortless for vader. Could he have slowly force gripped him over or tried to repel the lightening first or distracted him long enough for he and luke to force him over or something like that...

There are several things you need to understand however.

 

The limitations of cinematography at the time: Lucas originally wanted Sidious to fight in ROTJ, but the limitations of the time didn't allow him. So we had to what for ROTS before we saw that. Likewise the limitations of the time meant that we couldn't see a spectacular CGI endowed ending for the Sith Lord, simply because they couldn't do it.

 

The sense of gravitas: here is an interesting quote from Lucas, "It's just a couple of guys banging sticks against each other. Don't worry about that. It is bigger because of what is going on in their heads. That is what makes it bigger." And he's right, and its in part what made the Prequel duels not quite as good, because they all too often traded flashy CGI for substance. I feel the same can be said here and for your suggestions, the gravitas would be lost.

 

It works because its fast and it takes hold of the epicness of the moment, there is nothing to distract you from what is really going on here i.e. Vader being redeemed and fulfilling the Prophecy of the Chosen One, he picks him up and he throws him down. What makes it spectacular is what is going on in their heads, not what is visually happening.

 

Which is why you found it lackluster while searching for eye-candy. I expect if, or rather when, you watched the entire film for the first time you found that scene far more fulfilling. If you did not, then all I can say is that you have been conditioned by recent cinema to not appreciate this kind of cinematography, which is a shame.

Edited March 13, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Beniboybling]

Also, we now know he didn't ultimately die there so it was much more so "embarrassing" for him than it would be for us mere mortals.

And I sincerely hope that that gets retconned, because it spoils the significance of the scene and the saga as a whole in exchange for the kind of flashy eye-candy your proposing here. Edited March 13, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Fyurii]

And I sincerely hope that that gets retconned, because it spoils the significance of the scene and the saga as a whole in exchange for the kind of flashy eye-candy your proposing here.

 

To be fair it only spoiled the end of RoTJ originally. Then Lucas decided that the films are all about Anakin Skywalker, and retroactively always have been.

[jaytdasme]

There are several things you need to understand however.

 

The limitations of cinematography at the time: Lucas originally wanted Sidious to fight in ROTJ, but the limitations of the time didn't allow him. So we had to what for ROTS before we saw that. Likewise the limitations of the time meant that we couldn't see a spectacular CGI endowed ending for the Sith Lord, simply because they couldn't do it.

 

The sense of gravitas: here is an interesting quote from Lucas, "It's just a couple of guys banging sticks against each other. Don't worry about that. It is bigger because of what is going on in their heads. That is what makes it bigger." And he's right, and its in part what made the Prequel duels not quite as good, because they all too often traded flashy CGI for substance. I feel the same can be said here and for your suggestions, the gravitas would be lost.

Yes this is point i agree with most and already brought up. Based on the technology, date, the film time and the budget they had to cut a lot of corners. So yes, for the period for which it air a lot of what took place then seemed appropriated and well executed. But by today's standards, and background knowledge, this scene was weak. I think some of us are clinging to nostalgia lol.

 

It works because its fast and it takes hold of the epicness of the moment, there is nothing to distract you from what is really going on here i.e. Vader being redeemed and fulfilling the Prophecy of the Chosen One, he picks him up and he throws him down. What makes it spectacular is what is going on in their heads, not what is visually happening.

 

Which is why you found it lackluster while searching for eye-candy. I expect if, or rather when, you watched the entire film for the first time you found that scene far more fulfilling. If you did not, then all I can say is that you have been conditioned by recent cinema to not appreciate this kind of cinematography, which is a shame.

 

So basically i didn't like it because i lack imagination and the "substance" i'm looking for was more subtle yet prevalent than blunt and apparent? possibly i guess...

Lucas screwed about enough with that scene already with the entirely pointless addition of another "nooooooo" for the Blu-Ray release.

.

Ugh love the "nooooo's" in movies... they are often comically overly dramatic. Particularly Vaders.. i have the Nooo button app on my phone for laughs XD Edited March 13, 2014 by jaytdasme

[Beniboybling]

Yes this is point i agree with most and already brought up. Based on the technology, date, the film time and the budget they had to cut a lot of corners. So yes, for the period for which it air a lot of what took place then seemed appropriated and well executed. But by today's standards, and background knowledge, this scene was weak. I think some of us are clinging to nostalgia lol.

Evoking "today's standards" is hardly a platform for argument, in many respects today's standards are more base and vulgar than they were before, and this is coming from someone who grew up among these standards. We put too much emphasis on visual quality and are all to often prepared to dispense with everything else in favour of that.

 

Transformers, Iron Man, Avengers etc. are good examples of this.

 

For me there is something of the Original Trilogy lacking in the Prequels, too much eye-candy over substance.

So basically i didn't like it because i lack imagination and the "substance" i'm looking for was more subtle yet prevalent than blunt and apparent? possibly i guess...

I'm not about to make broad assumptions about your character, but yes the substance your looking for is more subtle yet prevalent as opposed to blunt and apparent. I can assure you the changes you suggest would degrade the scene.

 

EDIT: In the end though, it is a matter of taste. But I simply find this mode far more satisfying and timeless to be honest, its not supported by CGI or any other special effects, so it can never become dated.

Edited March 13, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Aurbere]

Considering that Palpatine had become so powerful that no one could actually defeat him straight up (until you get to Dark Empire Luke), the death was rather fitting.

[tunewalker]

There are some factors to consider as to why it was rather easy for Vader.

 

1. Palps was completely focused on torturing/killing Luke.

 

2. He thought Vader couldn't be turned from the darkside, so he had no reason to think that Vader was gonna turn against him.

 

not only this but remember Vader was never this desperate before. Vader was incredlibly powerful, but not strong enough to assuredly take his master with out costing his own life in the process. And Palps knew it. This was the first time in Vader's life where it didn't matter if he made it out alive. He sacrificed himself for his son it was an act of desperation that likely only Vader could have pulled off and one know one would have ever thought he would do.

[jaytdasme]

Evoking "today's standards" is hardly a platform for argument, in many respects today's standards are more base and vulgar than they were before, and this is coming from someone who grew up among these standards. We put too much emphasis on visual quality and are all to often prepared to dispense with everything else in favor of that.

 

True, but that's besides the point I'm making. Even i had no knowledge of the film but read everything up until that scene in a novel i'd probably go "..what?.. -_- " no matter how well illustrated and detailed. I think Scar (and Mufasa) in the Lion King had a way better yet very similar end. lol pardon me for bringing up Disney cartoons but gotta give credit where it's due.

 

 

EDIT: In the end though, it is a matter of taste. But I simply find this mode far more satisfying and timeless to be honest, its not supported by CGI or any other special effects, so it can never become dated.

^^ this. To each his own .. i was born 88' so i'm probably spoiled.

[Beniboybling]

True, but that's besides the point I'm making. Even i had no knowledge of the film but read everything up until that scene in a novel i'd probably go "..what?.. -_- " no matter how well illustrated and detailed. I think Scar (and Mufasa) in the Lion King had a way better yet very similar end. lol pardon me for bringing up Disney cartoons but gotta give credit where it's due.

 

^^ this. To each his own .. i was born 88' so i'm probably spoiled.

Well it is a matter of taste I suppose, I agree that there is something to be said about the most powerful Sith Lord in the galaxy being tossed down a chute but at the same time I feel the non-visual aspects of that scene were executed perfectly so that I honestly didn't care. But is doesn't work vice versa so well I feel.

 

P.S. Among my generation Disney is literally the new cool, praise Disney with pride my friend.

Edited March 13, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Falcon_Runner]

Palpetines strength was in his ability to manipulate people and prey on their fears and bend them to his will. When Luke tossed his lightsaber and refused to finish his father he defeated the emperor right then and there. It was that act that prompted Vader to save his son and redeem himself. He was always physically stronger then Sidious but Sidious had total " mental" control/manipulation of him.

[Wolfninjajedi]

not only this but remember Vader was never this desperate before. Vader was incredlibly powerful, but not strong enough to assuredly take his master with out costing his own life in the process. And Palps knew it. This was the first time in Vader's life where it didn't matter if he made it out alive. He sacrificed himself for his son it was an act of desperation that likely only Vader could have pulled off and one know one would have ever thought he would do.

 

Well...technically if we take into account the Will of The Force, given that Anakin/Vader is the Chosen One and thus mandated by The Force to kill Sidious, it would happen. How it would happen doesn't matter, so even if Vader decided to confront Sidious despite the fact the latter is leagues above Vader, somehow Sidious would end up dead as foretold, though Vader would probably end up dead too.

 

But I mean if we take all that prophecy stuff out of it all, then yeah that was pretty much Vader's only shot.

Edited March 14, 2014 by Wolfninjajedi

[Trixdope]

Considering that Palpatine had become so powerful that no one could actually defeat him straight up (until you get to Dark Empire Luke), the death was rather fitting.

 

Just like palp couldn't beat his master straight up? Lol just sayin

[Aurbere]

Just like palp couldn't beat his master straight up? Lol just sayin

 

You've read the novel, right? You'd want to make sure the guy was dead, too, if you knew what he did to his assassins.

 

Besides, it's called risk management.