Gap Closer Drama

[meisterjedi]

I guess it's time for me to share my take on jet charge as well.

 

If you want jet charge for PVP dps (the area where it would have a meaningful impact) I can only say, we already have very little trouble to stay on our targets regardless of class compared to other meeles. this would be way over the top even just for an additional interrupt on 30m range with a 15 sec cd. It would greatly increase the value of HO vs nonsniper ranged classes as well, as you don't have to use HO to close in through slows/roots. and theese are just the most impactful points I see.

 

for PVE jet charge would mostly only help your DPS, if you do not position yourself properly (because you don't know the fight, don't know how to play to your classes strenghts) or your tactic for the boss is not optimised for the use of meele classes, which mainly comes down to your tanks doing a poor job at positioning the mobs correctly and your ranged/healers scattering randomly all over the place without any coordination.

The main exception to this are bosses, where you have to run to targets more than 15m away multiple times in quick succesion (less than 15 sec), and in this case jet charge would bring our dps uptime over every other meele class in the game by a significant margin. and there aren't even many bosses where you can't circumvent this happening to you. brontes droid phase comes to my mind and maybe bestia sub 50% if you have a lot of meele in the group. Operator IX might be another one if your DPS in the circle can''t keep up with the adds (only on HM, as on NIM you can't afford that stuff untill you are overgeared, in which case that shouldn't be happening in the first place).

 

on most target switches/location switches in the game you can simulate leaping to a target very well by moving to 10m range as soon as you used your 4m abiliites (of yourse you need to know in which direction the new target will appear, which might not work when you see the boss the very first time, but should be fairly doable after a couple of pulls) and use explosive dart while running over. If you have HO ready you can close a 20m distance back in your effective 10m range from your already 10m distace from the current target without loosing a fraction of a GCD. this way you can close an almost 30m distance and still keep your DPS higher than warriors for example as their leap does less dmg.

 

If you don't have HO ready you still can close almost the same distance without loosing anything every 15sec (which happens to be the leap/jet charge cd) with only explosive dart (which happens to be AOE as well, so it might even be a DPS gain in some situations). AP has 15% increased run speed further increasing your target switch range and if you are lucky you can even use Rail shot if it just came off cd. Pyro has a way shorter cd on Railshot and due to the nature of PPA can even save it for some seconds if you know a switch is incoming very soon, so you are pretty likely to even have Rail shot ready as well (unless it's a new target and you have no ranged that can DOT it (read: only arsenal mercs)), which might even make explosive dart unecessary. On top of that your rapid shots can refresh your cylinder DOT and therefore it's not that terrible as well, if you have to use it.

 

So jet charge would only be a DPS increase if it did more damage than explosive dart in most cases, and even then mainly for the fact, that it costs 16 heat less, so you can use it as resource regeneration. the only thing it would do, is reduce the difference between good PTs and bad ones, and eliminate all the fun I have with my PT while DPSing, becasue that's the point where you have influence on your DMG. Especially in AP this is the case, as its heat management is almost nonexistant and it's rotaion is already fairly simple and static. Then only your PFT positioning and your ability to avoid interupting it would remain as any challenge of the spec.

Edited March 6, 2014 by meisterjedi

[Kaos_KidSWTOR]

Please do your best to explain to me how another class would be able to counter a DPS PT in PVP when he has Jet Charge, HO, and Grapple. I am eager to hear how this is balanced. With how strong DPS PT's are right now in PVP, it can't be done without the nerf bat swinging down HARD.

 

Give Hydraulic Overrides a 5 second duration then, 5 seconds is PLENTY of time for you to have Physics Immunity, and it would be more in line with other buffs of the sort like Force Speed with Egress or the Tank talent nobody takes. I would be more than pleased with that. But my point still stands, Tank PT/VG Is Balanced while having all 3 Tools, AND to throw even more support my way tank can spec into a Root for Grapple, and still be balanced with all 3.

 

Also, you are looking at Jet Charge for tanks all wrong. Tanks NEED an ability to leap to targets so they can PEEL for allies efficiently. It isn't a matter of threat or damage. Why do you think Sin tanks get a Force Speed that breaks all roots? Because it looks cool? No, it's to allow them to stay near those that they are guarding in PVP and swap fluidly in PVP.

 

Taunnnts... Do you keep forgetting about Taunts? And besides, if your in PvP the better method of peeling someone off is Taunting the attacker and Grappleing them to you, if anything Juggernauts are the worst at peeling targets because of no pull, Now im not saying give them a pull because they have Force Push to differ. I have a level 52 Sin Tank, and i havent wasted the point for that talent, mainly because it's damn near useless in PvE, and i play Deception in PvP, because Sin Tanks suck at PvP, unless your some god at PvP. Point is, PT and VG tanks already have the tools to Peel targets, now stop gimping PT and VG DPS by only giving them a puny Pull that cant pull half the things in endgame, and Hydraulic Overrides, which is COMPLETELY situational, I dont even have it on an extra keybind it's that Situational, If i remember that it's there (because i wasnt conditioned to use it in leveling) then i may use it, but 9/10 i use my Reactive Shield and just tank my happy butt through it all.

 

 

Responses in Bold.

[Kooziejr]

Responses in Bold.

 

Taunting is something a DPS does to peel...Tanks have to peel properly or else they are bad. You are showing a lot of ignorance with these responses....you do realize you have to stay within 15 metres of the target you are trying to peel for right? As you have to be in guard range? Peeling means stunning, slowing, taunting during their burst phase, staying on top of them to interrupt them, keeping within guard range, as well as pulling away from them......Juggs have better peeling tools because they can intercede to the target, have 2 4 second stuns, and an AoE mez, plus a push that resets leap = root again etc.. They have an AoE slow (so do PTs).

 

The difference between a tank and a DPS is how fast then can kill you. a DPS can kill u in 4 - 5 GCDs. A tank takes 20......I really think you need to play this game a little more before you respond so often on the forums.

 

EDIT: Just read the bit how you don't have HO on keykind *sigh* and *facepalm*

Edited March 6, 2014 by Kooziejr

[ScytheEleven]

Responses in Bold.

 

To the first response:

 

Again, you are under the assumption that because a tank class is balanced with JC, Grap, and HO, that the DPS class would be balanced as well. As I am sure you are aware, a tanks job is to absorb/deflect damage meant for others and to withstand it. A DPS is designed to dish out the hurt. And yes, people do take those talents that you scoff at since they are useful.

 

To your second response:

 

Of course I know about taunts, I keep mine on CD. To be blunt, taunt + pull seems like a waste of a taunt. Assuming focus fire is happening and there are 2 DPS on my gaurded ally, I would pull the melee attacking my ally, and taunt the ranged (Sorc/Sniper/Merc). Juggs are quite good at peeling, since they have two leaps (enemy + friendly) and a spammable AoE slow, not to mention Force Push and an AoE mezz. Also, you referring to HO as a completely situational move is baffling; in mine and many others' opinions, giving HO to the entire PT class was the best upgrade in 2.0. It's an AMAZING ability that is borderline OP for this class from a DPS perspective.

 

Here is an example of what would happen if we had all 3 as a DPS:

 

Jet Charge to Sorc

Sorc uses knockback

Grapple sorc back to us

Sorc roots and Force Speeds away

HO activated

Sorc is dead.

 

We would have no counter as a DPS class in PVP with all three. With our range of 4m, 10m, and 30m options, we are more than a force to be reckoned with.

 

I am not quite sure what you actually do...do you do HM/NiM content for PVE? Do you do ranked for PVP? You are coming off as more of a casual player, one who does SM and regs. No offense meant, but that's the only conclusion I can come to when I'm reading your responses. It also doesn't sound like you DPS on your PT in PVP. My main is my DPS PT, and I am telling you, we are so close to being overpowered it's not even funny. When I'm on my other toons and I see someone on the other team that I know is at least a solid PT DPS, I know we are going to be in for some hurt if we don't peel him off his/her target(s). And that's just for a SOLID player. The great ones? Oh sh*t.

Edited March 6, 2014 by ScytheEleven

[Fazaani]

You mean you're condescension? Good on you man! You certainly showed me how to be less sarcastic/less of a jerk by being one yourself! Grats!

 

Oh and in case you hadn't noticed I don't care who likes/dislikes me on the forums :-) - I speak my mind in the hope it benefits the majority of players.

 

I'm sorry that you missundestood me but i wasn't mocking you. I was pointing out sacasticly that i know that this topic is going on the "jesus level"(from my part) and i don't goin to continue it any futher.

 

Also i did my orginal posting just as in the same spirit, since i hope that the respectful coversation even with "stupid ideas" benefits the majority of players more than rudeness.

Edited March 6, 2014 by Fazaani

[Ottoattack]

Responses in Bold.

 

I just read juggernauts are the worst peelers, laughed for like 30 minutes, then I realized that you can't explain something logically to people who do not understand the basics of the basics.

 

This thread was the last attempt to explain politely and logically why PT does not have JC. I will put simply, if you are a seasoned player who PT is like your 4th alt and think PT needs JC, G.T.F.O. and stop wasting asking for things that did not and will never be added for the class.

[Kooziejr]

I'm sorry that you missundestood me but i wasn't mocking you. I was pointing out sacasticly that i know that this topic is going on the "jesus level"(from my part) and i don't goin to continue it any futher.

 

Also i did my orginal posting just as in the same spirit, since i hope that the respectful coversation even with "stupid ideas" benefits the majority of players more than rudeness.

 

Yes, we tried the respectful conversion. It didn't work? have you read the past 5 threads on this topic??????? So I guess you're wrong...because neither of them have worked.

Edited March 6, 2014 by Kooziejr

[Fazaani]

So are you afraid that they will get their will if you dont counter them (and so are fighting for the game). Or trying to change the mind's of the ones who want it?

 

cuz if it will not happen as was said here somewhere why bother to wind up your self with the matter?

[Ottoattack]

So are you afraid that they will get their will if you dont counter them (and so are fighting for the game). Or trying to change the mind's of the ones who want it?

 

cuz if it will not happen as was said here somewhere why bother to wind up your self with the matter?

 

The class rep. questions (which I created this thread to explain nicely why PTs/VGs don't need additional gap closers) should be tuned for issues and improvements, not for "my marauder has leap and my PT doesn't, and I do not like it." If I am a dev, I will respond, "L2P. Working as intended." This is a waste of time and forum space.

 

Dude, I had someone comparing PT tank to another tank class and did not even understand how the other class operates.

Edited March 6, 2014 by Ottoattack

[AAntan]

The class rep. questions (which I created this thread to explain nicely why PTs/VGs don't need additional gap closers) should be tuned for issues and improvements, not for "my marauder has leap and my PT doesn't, and I do not like it." If I am a dev, I will respond, "L2P. Working as intended." This is a waste of time and forum space.

 

You are not the only one that would say that to baddies that ask for JC.

 

Something I still don't understand is why people believe JC will actually improve our PvE dps by a lot? It's just a leap that does 2k dmg max, and saves you 2s of dps. Assuming you leap 5 times on a fight, do you actually think that's gonna give us the 250 dps that we currently lack to be on par with the other classes? If you said yes, you are an idiot.

 

Check the parses, they are ideal situations no movement, no damage going, no mechanics, no nothing... and yet we are way behind on dps (slighty ahead of Sins woohoo), do you think JC would make a difference on a dummy parse? If you say yes, I promote you to complete idiot now.

 

Also a lot of people stated this, but guess I'm gonna have to say it 1 more time. Adding JC to PT as a baseline is going to lead us into a massive nerf because PT is awesome on PvP right now, and you guys want to break it just to add a skill you would probably use ONE TIME on a PvE boss fight.

[ReclaimerDonar]

As a Vg/PT i have absolutely no problem chasing down the enemy with Harpoon and HO. People just cant understand that JC will not improve their dps in PVE.

[AlrikFassbauer]

The reasoning above this beyond stupid "Don't FEEL like a BH". Its a game you idiot

 

Then why didn't they put into the game something like Transformers, when it is - according to you - "just a game" ?

 

If I am a dev, I will respond, "L2P. Working as intended."

 

To the Sorcs they actually said that.

Edited March 6, 2014 by AlrikFassbauer

[WillLongstick]

Responses in Bold.

 

"I have a level 52 Sin Tank, and i havent wasted the point for that talent, mainly because it's damn near useless in PvE"

 

Sin tank pull is one of the most useful points in that tree. 9k threat as soon as a boss fight starts, that's what makes Sin tanks so good at snap threat. Being unwilling to use all the available tools for a class (Sin pull, HO...) does not mean the class isn't performing poorly. It means you're performing poorly.

 

Now if we waste for a question asking for a jump4all, can we also ask to have an ability that resets the jump because Juggs can do that?

[foiblesqt]

Why is wanting Jet Charge because it is a fun and iconic ability not acceptable? This is a game played to have fun.

 

You can not think it's a bad idea all you want, but ordering everyone to stop asking for something they want is simply a lesson in foolishness.

Edited March 6, 2014 by foiblesqt

[JMagee]

Why is wanting Jet Charge because it is a fun and iconic ability not acceptable? This is a game played to have fun.

 

You can not think it's a bad idea all you want, but ordering everyone to stop asking for something they want is simply a lesson in foolishness.

 

It's a really enjoyable ability. The problem with it is it's a very valuable movement utility. Especially in PvP.

 

PTs have several other valuable "movement" skills, HO and Harpoon, that adding a 3rd would make the class quite imbalanced in certain game types. Again, namely PvP.

 

While I agree it's a cool ability, the game has to at least attempt to keep the classes relatively balanced, or else the diversity in the game is lost, or the class who is woefully is knocked back down, usually to somewhat underbalanced.

 

When the argument boils down to, for a lot of people "My personal fun" vs. "game balance for all". The game balance is more important. As much as I want all of those things on my PT. I know I don't want to face all of them on my Sage.

Edited March 6, 2014 by JMagee

[Frenesi]

It's a really enjoyable ability. The problem with it is it's a very valuable movement utility. Especially in PvP.

 

PTs have several other valuable "movement" skills, HO and Harpoon, that adding a 3rd would make the class quite imbalanced in certain game types. Again, namely PvP.

 

While I agree it's a cool ability, the game has to at least attempt to keep the classes relatively balanced, or else the diversity in the game is lost, or the class who is woefully is knocked back down, usually to somewhat underbalanced.

 

When the argument boils down to, for a lot of people "My personal fun" vs. "game balance for all". The game balance is more important. As much as I want all of those things on my PT. I know I don't want to face all of them on my Sage.

 

Why don't remove Harpoon in exchange? Or HO? Or both, if you really feel so OP? Place it in tank tree.

 

Problem isn't even in DPS - it sucks by default, yes. But not having proper gap closer is simply irritating. Can we switch between distant enemyes/adds? Nope. We need to walk all the distance on foot. What are we doing in Fp/Ops when everybody else jumped/stealthed in fight? We walk on foot. Usually 30 meters (thanks, jump-tanks). Simply to initiate our rotation. With really stupid walking animation.

Edited March 6, 2014 by Frenesi

[JMagee]

Why don't remove Harpoon in exchange? Or HO? Or both, if you really feel so OP? Place it in tank tree.

 

Problem isn't even in DPS - it sucks by default, yes. But not having proper gap closer is simply irritating. Can we switch between distant enemyes/adds? Nope. We need to walk all the distance on foot. What are we doing in Fp/Ops when everybody else jumped/stealthed in fight? We walk on foot. Usually 30 meters (thanks, jump-tanks). Simply to initiate our rotation. With really stupid walking animation.

 

Because I personally would much rather have HO and Harpoon.

 

As far as making up distance in PvE. I agree it can be annoying. HO helps, if already in combat, but compared to Force Speed or Leap, PTs will always be bringing up the rear in a foot race.

 

I'm sorry if your experiences have been with tanks who leap in from max range when they feel like it. The Ops group I run with is at least raid aware (and considerate/takes pity etc.) enough to realize that pulling when I'm nowhere close (<15m) from the boss is going to be a detriment to the effort. Or they just kill it without me and then ridicule how little I helped. Either way, in my experience, far from the end of the world.

 

My point isn't that gap closers are bad. It's that PT DPS (in PvE) has way more pressing issues that can't be solved by making JC a baseline ability. And this change (more than a lot of others I've seen in this Class forum) has potential implications in areas that may make the class unfair.

 

I'd rather see an increase in sustained DPS for PTs than JC.

[eVentHoriZn]

I will put simply, if you are a seasoned player who PT is like your 4th alt and think PT needs JC, G.T.F.O. and stop wasting asking for things that did not and will never be added for the class.

 

Finished my PT Pyro a couple days ago as my 7th 55. Due to legacy gear awesomeness I ran as a sub in one of the guilds DP HM groups last night. Gotta say coming from Jugg/Sentinel/Assassin/Shadow I was a little apprehensive about my effectiveness without a significant 30m gap closer...

 

...But it was never a problem, couple times on Raptus after being teleported I missed the Intercede + Leap combo on the Jugg, but to be honest it didn't feel any worse than my Assassin.

 

Throwing in my 2cents as a brand new powertech alt, Jet Charge would be nice - but theres no way I would trade other skills like Grapple and Hydraulics for it. It's just not needed.

[AAntan]

I'd rather see an increase in sustained DPS for PTs than JC.

 

This is what all the good PT players are looking for PvE (because dps on PvP is nice atm).

 

But as always people that barely know how to play this class come with stuff like this: "Uh well... a Warrior can leap, a PT tank can leap, it's only logic that my dps PT leap too, because I have a jetpack (beware that Mercs have this too) and I want to leap because I dont want to spend 2s by walking, no fun for me".

 

The main reason that all classes are different in some aspects is to create a variety of gameplay, otherwise, why bother? If you want a dps leap, roll a Warrior, simple. Don't expect the game balance to put leap on all classes just to amuse you... learn to use what is at your disposal (in this case HO and Grapple).

[Kooziejr]

Common trend in this thread:

 

Players I know and respect on the forums and have been around for a long time who either main a PT or have played one a long time say "No"

New players I have never seen before saying "Yes"

 

/thread

[WillLongstick]

Common trend in this thread:

 

Players I know and respect on the forums and have been around for a long time who either main a PT or have played one a long time say "No"

New players I have never seen before saying "Yes"

 

/thread

 

I can take a guess which bracket Jerc is in, and since he's submitting the questions I think we're fine.

[Fazaani]

Just to be clear on my stand on the matter (and so to avoid the obvious hate ), i don't see need for JC to Ap or Pyro atleast time being.

 

Still as for the coversation itself this is a matter that prolly will be on the wishlist till the day of ends.

 

And reason's like i want it, it's smth that all pt's should be able to do by default, lore, story, coolness and history are all VALID reasons to want it. And if ppl (noobs or not want it) they have all the right's to demand it. Hell they can even go to march EA doorsteps with banners if they want it. It has nothing to do with the reasons why it should not be done...

 

The problem is that the reasons against it are just more valid.

 

As such opening post was and is all that is needed to counter this wish. There's no need to wage war over this. If you try to force your opinnion to those who don't know as much as you do or simply disagree... well thats bit North-Korea aint it?

 

So the matter will prolly allways be at hand. You cant kill it by insuting the ones asking for it, more so i think you will spite the opposition to counter and drive it harder just to wind you up more. Or then you just get trolled

 

All this matters only for the subject itself and represent's dealling with the matter and how are decissions made and rationalized. (again back to my orginal comment)

 

On the other hand:

 

If you are looking for venting your overheated rotation or just enjoy of the fight or like to pick on others thats a completely different case

[TheSupaCoopa]

Duran'del here:

 

I have suggested that Jet Charge would only be useable in PvE If youre a DPS. Tanks would get a talent that would remove this restriction in their skill tree.

[ZoreWon]

They just need to add damage/dot to harpoon. It keeps the class unique and helps PVE damage while not tipping PVP.

[Cempa]

You can not make comparisons like that it just will not work....You need to use empirical data to show why YOU think this change is a must!

 

would you give up Grapple for it? HECK NO!