How do you take down a good gunship pilot with a scout?

[Verain]

so its like 50 points of drain?! wow that's not OP in the slightest......

 

I'm... actually surprised at the video. I don't feel the direct hit of the ion railgun is ok draining so much. When this happens to me, which is rarely, I have assumed that I misjudged or didn't see something. The video makes it clear- the ion railgun direct hit is like 50% of engine and weapon pool. This isn't even documented in the game, and the game is a veritable river of numbers.

[Zoom_VI]

remember those jokes about how concealment had a talent that caused hidden trike to have a 2% chance to unsub the target?

Well I think ion rail has a 2% chance to caused the target to quit GSF

[okiobe]

I don't think that drain is too bad if you only consider a full charge doing it plus shield damage. I think it becomes OP when you add that its full effect is applied with any fireable charge (>25%) and it disables regen. All of it together makes it OP.

[Zoom_VI]

I don't think that drain is too bad if you only consider a full charge doing it plus shield damage. I think it becomes OP when you add that its full effect is applied with any fireable charge (>25%) and it disables regen. All of it together makes it OP.

 

The problem with ion is that it takes all of your shields and half of everything else and then prevents you from regenerating any of it. And if you don't run around with everything topped off (basically everyone except stationary gunships.) chances are a ion hit will leave you without enough power to do anything at all. Even if it required full charge it would still be stupidly overpowered.

 

hence space CC

Edited March 13, 2014 by Zoom_VI

[Gavin_Kelvar]

The problem with ion is that it takes all of your shields and half of everything else and then prevents you from regenerating any of it. And if you don't run around with everything topped off (basically everyone except stationary gunships.) chances are a ion hit will leave you without enough power to do anything at all. Even if it required full charge it would still be stupidly overpowered.

 

hence space CC

 

This pretty much. It's not ok for a weapon to be able to leave a ship dead in the water in 1-2 hits.

 

It also explains why the GS/bomber combo is so powerful. Crippling an enemy in two shots renders it impossible for enemy scouts/strikers to either 1) boost through a bomber screen or 2) destroy the bombers to clear the path to the GS.

[okiobe]

The problem with ion is that it takes all of your shields and half of everything else and then prevents you from regenerating any of it. And if you don't run around with everything topped off (basically everyone except stationary gunships.) chances are a ion hit will leave you without enough power to do anything at all. Even if it required full charge it would still be stupidly overpowered.

 

hence space CC

 

I agree that the sum of everything it does is OP. I don't think that big shield damage + energy drain in an of itself is OP. Shields are quick and easy to regenerate. I think the effectiveness of the ion railgun would be diminished if it don't damaged shields. Somewhat like the ion cannons and ion missiles. It's easy to escape in a scout (EDIT: without power drain) which I mostly fly but I understand you point as all ships can't escape easily. I just don't want to remove so much from a weapon that it becomes unusable (or give no extra benefit over just using slug railgun). We don't need yet more worthless components.

Edited March 13, 2014 by okiobe

[SpacerSebben]

Were targets and you in that video using crew members / thrusters that increase engine power pool ?

 

I ran with base 100 weapon and engine power pools so that I'd be able to see for sure if I were losing more than half of my total pool. It's probably a formula of 25 (base) + 10 (tier 3 upgrade) + 18 (tier 4 aoe drain) so that could be each shot doing 53 drain and thus more than half of a stock ship's pool.

 

I actually did have this crazy idea of stacking power pools. Like for both gunship variants, if you take Weapon Power Converter mastered and set it to increase your blaster power pool by +15%, then Power Pool Extender for your Magazine, and then use a companion that increases blaster power pool, you end up with 145 weapon power. However, you give up Barrel Roll and instead require 3 taps before your weapon is empty. Assuming a gunship doesn't think to ion tap you 3 times and only does 2, you -might- be able to shoot back with the 39 blaster energy you'd have left?

 

Unless they pop distortion field when you shoot back.

 

Since this is a scout thread, you can push your engine power pool to 165 in a Blackbolt/Novadive. Booster Recharge (systems) tier 4 adds +10% engine pool, Engine Power Converter (shield) tier 3 has +25% engine pool as an option, then Power Thrusters (thrusters) for another +20% and then take a +10% engine pool companion. You'll still need 3 taps to be shut down and by this time your weapons are already gone, but by the first hit you may have enough in you to either escape or directly engage them and hope you regen in time or at least Barrel Roll (if you have it). If you don't care for Booster Recharge you can still take something else like EMP Field and still have 155 engine power pool. And yes, both types of strikes have similar options available as far as power stacking to 145 goes (at the expense of engine maneuvers).

 

The effectiveness of a power stacking build specifically to counter ion railguns remains to be seen. But hey... it's an idea?

Edited March 13, 2014 by SpacerSebben

[Zoom_VI]

pushing your power pool up so high costs you regeneration and with less regeneration you will be running with a lower available power, so in the end it would probably leave you just as vulnerable to ion or even possibly worse.

 

this assumes you actually use your engine in combat since I don't know any scout that constantly flies around topped-off.

[TheRampage]

Full charge should have more benefit then taping. I want tap for finishing low targets, but not for spreading aoe around and puting debuff on target.

 

Give something to full charge, maybe full buff duration, with taping just 1 sec.

[Zoom_VI]

Full charge should have more benefit then taping. I want tap for finishing low targets, but not for spreading aoe around and puting debuff on target.

 

Give something to full charge, maybe full buff duration, with taping just 1 sec.

 

Full charge or no, nothing should do 50+ points of drain to multiple power pools with a additional regeneration lockout to all of them.

 

For gosh sakes even the missiles don't do that and those give lock-on warnings and have limited ammo and a cooldown.

[DroidDreamer]

This discussion inspired me to go and record some footage of me both getting shot as well as shooting people using a mastered ion railgun as well as analysis of the effects of the energy drain. Hopefully my video can help give some insight on the nature of ion railguns in their current state as of 2.6.

 

 

Laughable, dumb and no fun. For the gunship or its targets. You really see the reduced range of motion after the hits. The ships barely move around at all, even the good pilots heading for cover. That's consistent with my experience in which you're a sitting duck not long after you get hit by the ion railgun. What really blew my mind is how respectable the HULL damage is, on top of wiping shields, and blaster/engine power, and adding a snare, and being AOE. And it's spammable. The quarter power minimum charge does nothing to reign this in, except perhaps suggest a firing cadence for the shooter.

 

Laughably OP.

 

Thanks, SpacerSebben. This is pretty conclusive. Tremendously good break down. This is helpful information for the game.

[Armonddd]

I agree that the sum of everything it does is OP. I don't think that big shield damage + energy drain in an of itself is OP.

 

In other words, you're saying that shield damage + energy drain can be balanced with the right numbers tweaks? I think I can agree with that, but I want to make sure I understand you properly.

 

Shields are quick and easy to regenerate.

 

Shields only regenerate if you pull yourself out of the fight for six seconds (before upgrades such as turbo reactor, quick-charge shields, and directional shields). I don't think that's quick or easy.

 

I just don't want to remove so much from a weapon that it becomes unusable (or give no extra benefit over just using slug railgun). We don't need yet more worthless components.

 

While I agree that we don't need any more worthless components, I think the ion railgun would need a pretty strong nerf to be inferior to slug. As long as it drains energy and/or stops regen, it'll have a place.

[okiobe]

In other words...

 

Ya I think you understood me correctly. I think shield damage plus one other nice effect (power drain or whatever) would make ion railgun a nice weapon. By worthless I referred to the situation where it only did shield damage and nothing else (Some people complain about everything I wonder if this is what they want). I've also not found it too hard to regen shields. Boost away and hide behind an asteroid or something. Of course opponent difficulty varies on time of day, server, and luck.

Edited March 14, 2014 by okiobe

[Pilgrim_Grey]

Ya I think you understood me correctly. I think shield damage plus one other nice effect (power drain or whatever) would make ion railgun a nice weapon. By worthless I referred to the situation where it only did shield damage and nothing else (Some people complain about everything I wonder if this is what they want). I've also not found it too hard to regen shields. Boost away and hide behind an asteroid or something. Of course opponent difficulty varies on time of day, server, and luck.

 

Even if you took away all or the majority of energy drain (especially the energy recharge lockout), I would still use ion when I fly a gunship. It's really, really good against shields, and as the many posts about dropping bombers in a strike show, getting those shields down fast is worth it. You're really emphasizing the strengths of shield recharge, but it takes a long while even on my strike that has the directional shield recharge boost and turbo reactor. It takes time for those shields to start recharging and especially to get to full. And it's not like the gunship or its teammates will be ignoring me every time I'm hit with an ion railgun.

 

It's been noted in this thread that you could also adjust slug to not be so good against (but keep the shield piercing) and that would also help with the issue you're seeing.

 

For the record, I do think you can adjust the debuff on ion and not eliminate it (and still be balanced). The other ion weapons have lower drain and regen reduction numbers. That said, I rather think it should have weaker debuff numbers than a missile that requires a lock: you can fire it from 15 KM away, after all. And even decent gunship pilots have the twitch skills to hit their target with a fair amount of certainty.

 

Oh, and has someone PM'd Eric Mucso or someone with this? Wouldn't surprise me if the devs didn't realize how overpowered ion is, given their response on some ground powers in the past.

[okiobe]

Well I guess I'm making assumptions on how strong the slug is against shields. I don't fly I gunship. I'm absolutely horrible with them. In the 13 or so matches I've flown with them I've managed to get a higher death count than kills. It's the only ship where I have more deaths than kills.

 

I wish we could get some dev feedback in the GSF forums more often but I haven't seen anything since they admitted that missile locks were broken against the missile break and needed to be fixed. That was a while ago.

[Zoom_VI]

Nerf!!!

[Altheran]

Well I guess I'm making assumptions on how strong the slug is against shields. I don't fly I gunship. I'm absolutely horrible with them. In the 13 or so matches I've flown with them I've managed to get a higher death count than kills. It's the only ship where I have more deaths than kills.

 

Basically, other rails deal as much or nearly as much damage on shields than Ion. So in the end, if we remove everything that make Ion OP, the weapon itself will have no use, because the other are already borderline.

Edited March 14, 2014 by Altheran

[Armonddd]

Basically, other rails deal as much or nearly as much damage on shields than Ion. So in the end, if we remove all things that make Ion OP, the weapon itself will have no use, because the other are already borderline.

 

Alternatively slug is also stupidly overpowered and needs a nerf too? Cause, I mean, doing that much damage ar that much range with that much burst capability is just stupid. My bursts have to crit at very close range to have a chance to do that much damage, and they're already borderline OP.

[Kuciwalker]

So, it has been suggested above that the energy drain is actually 25 (base) + 10 (talent) + 18 (aoe) = 53, which implies that the AOE is also hitting the original target. That would account for observations that ion takes out about half of the energy pool, but is inconsistent with the tooltip and, more importantly, the flytext. If the AOE were hitting the main target I would expect to either see two flytexts when I hit someone, or substantially higher damage numbers from a single shot. I see neither.

 

It is possible that the AOE effect is applied but the damage is not. That would also be odd.

 

Alternatively slug is also stupidly overpowered and needs a nerf too? Cause, I mean, doing that much damage ar that much range with that much burst capability is just stupid. My bursts have to crit at very close range to have a chance to do that much damage, and they're already borderline OP.

 

herp derp your guns don't take 3 seconds to charge, and you can fire them at full power twice within about a second.

Edited March 14, 2014 by Kuciwalker

[Altheran]

So, it has been suggested above that the energy drain is actually 25 (base) + 10 (talent) + 18 (aoe) = 53, which implies that the AOE is also hitting the original target. That would account for observations that ion takes out about half of the energy pool, but is inconsistent with the tooltip and, more importantly, the flytext. If the AOE were hitting the main target I would expect to either see two flytexts when I hit someone, or substantially higher damage numbers from a single shot. I see neither.

 

You did not consider the numbers overlapping. They hit at the exact same time, and are calculed at the same time, it wouldn't be surprising.

 

It's like Annihilation Marauder's self heals from Berserk. These heals stack with the regular heals from bleeds crits but since they occur at the same time and have the same value, you see only one number instead of two.

 

Evidence it hits twice : front and rear shield get destroyed at the same time. Impossible from a regular hit alone, and would be under-evaluated if it were to hit the two sides in one hit.

Edited March 14, 2014 by Altheran

[Armonddd]

herp derp your guns don't take 3 seconds to charge, and you can fire them at full power twice within about a second.

 

Yeah... for significantly less damage per shot and a seventh the range.

 

Bear in mind that burst capability (i.e. damage per shot) is an extremely powerful metric in this game.

[Zoom_VI]

herp derp your guns don't take 3 seconds to charge, and you can fire them at full power twice within about a second.

and railgun doesn't have to deal with lead indicators and its damage doesn't drop off with range.

[Pilgrim_Grey]

herp derp your guns don't take 3 seconds to charge, and you can fire them at full power twice within about a second.

 

Before we herp derp too much, keep in mind that even if you fly gunships, you know things are out of whack. There's a reason any gunship pilot worth his salt is using ion railgun. Not to say some don't, but it's pretty hard to avoid picking it: it's stupidly good and helpful. Bursts are iffy, but they don't cover the gamut of damage and debuff that an ion railgun does.

[Armonddd]

Bump in the hopes that the devs see the video and related discussion, because it's a major problem.

[SpacerSebben]

I'm actually going to make the video and the related ion railgun drain into its own thread since I feel like it derailed the original discussion and also so that other forum browsers can easier find this ion railgun discussion taking place.

 

Also, thank you DroidDreamer for the kind words.