Sidenti Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 The problem was people were pulling ahead in TDM and then camping their mothership so the other side could not catch up in kills. It wasnt about dumbing down GSF it was about people doing things to rig the game. Without fail, we ALWAYS managed to coerce impatient players away from the exact distances needed to shoot us down. Hell, just two days ago I flew with an Imperial PUG that absolutely DESTROYED a victory-camping voice-enabled group. I think the score was 50-23 or something like that. I mean, we shut 'em up and shut 'em down. I don't know if there's going to be any more instances like that now. I mean, really. What's the challenge on TDM now except to be the first to reach Damage Overcharge in a Flashfire? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brewski Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Without fail, we ALWAYS managed to coerce impatient players away from the exact distances needed to shoot us down. Hell, just two days ago I flew with an Imperial PUG that absolutely DESTROYED a victory-camping voice-enabled group. I think the score was 50-23 or something like that. I mean, we shut 'em up and shut 'em down. I don't know if there's going to be any more instances like that now. I mean, really. What's the challenge on TDM now except to be the first to reach Damage Overcharge in a Flashfire? DO lasts long enough to kill, what, 2 or 3 opponents? Maybe 4 on a good day. Effective and potentially devastating to a closed formation? Yes. A win button? No. Hyperbole serves no one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptwonline Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 DO lasts long enough to kill, what, 2 or 3 opponents? Maybe 4 on a good day. Effective and potentially devastating to a closed formation? Yes. A win button? No. Hyperbole serves no one. Depends on the situstion and what you fly. In a big hairball a Gunship with DO can pick off quite a few. I think my best is 5, and I could have gotten more if I was lucky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armonddd Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 DO lasts long enough to kill, what, 2 or 3 opponents? Maybe 4 on a good day. Effective and potentially devastating to a closed formation? Yes. A win button? No. Hyperbole serves no one. What? How is that hyperbole? I regularly get four kills with it, and I'm sure gunships and such get six or eight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brewski Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 (edited) What? How is that hyperbole? I regularly get four kills with it, and I'm sure gunships and such get six or eight. The hyperbole was the post I quoted saying that the first Flashfire to get DO wins the match. Even if we stretch it to 10 kills, and I highly doubt it has ever lasted that long since each shot lowers it's time, it's hardly a win button. That said, rereading the post i quoted I'm thinking it was meant tongue in cheek anyway, meaning my reply was probably wrong for a different reason. Edited February 26, 2014 by Brewski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zharik Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Even if we stretch it to 10 kills, and I highly doubt it has ever lasted that long since each shot lowers it's time, it's hardly a win button. What? Each shot lowers its time? Umm no... it has a 45 seconds timer, just like every other power up. I had a recent TDM game where I played my GS (for the x2 daily) and found the DO immediately. When the other team came in range I fired 6 shots and made 5 kills. The other 3 players on the enemy side didn't know about boost or I would have made more kills. So within the first 30 seconds of the match I had 5 kills and about half the enemy team was on the respawn screen. I guess in a 12 v 12 it might be possible to get 6-8 kills with a DO power up, but even with a GS that would not be easy. All the stars would have to align, so to speak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidenti Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 The hyperbole was the post I quoted saying that the first Flashfire to get DO wins the match. Even if we stretch it to 10 kills, and I highly doubt it has ever lasted that long since each shot lowers it's time, it's hardly a win button. That said, rereading the post i quoted I'm thinking it was meant tongue in cheek anyway, meaning my reply was probably wrong for a different reason. Of course, if we want to get technical, I never said getting a FF to DO was game over. I just said it was the only real challenge left in TDM these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deimos_Olympian Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 Capital ships gun really need to be restored to many new/pug players are being farmed at the spawnpoints by bombers working in combo with gunships Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verain Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 None of our games tonight became farms, so II can't contribute much. I will say that I'm worried about the lack of cap ships. On the bright side I got bandaid to chase me back to a cap ship on the satellite map. Totes made my night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattycutts Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 the potential to stack 4 ships on each rez point in a 12man game is too tempting to some groups and will abuse this, any time in any game that has pvp action rez points have and always will be abused unless theres things to stop it, etc.# Please restore the capital ships cannons, just dont let them counts to score line. simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nefastuss Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 the potential to stack 4 ships on each rez point in a 12man game is too tempting to some groups and will abuse this, any time in any game that has pvp action rez points have and always will be abused unless theres things to stop it, etc.# Please restore the capital ships cannons, just dont let them counts to score line. simple. Indeed, if the score is a problem dont let their kills count but make them work again. Its silly to have people camping at the ships. Why screw the matches with that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TUXs Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 Capital ships gun really need to be restored to many new/pug players are being farmed at the spawnpoints by bombers working in combo with gunships I was once new to GSF and I would argue that EVERY GSF match is a "PuG" match...how dumb do we actually think new players are that they won't avoid the same thing happening over and over and over...this is GSF...it's VERY easy to get the basics of, harder to master, but hardly so complex that new players would just get farmed over and over... The change is fine. If players are getting "farmed", I would argue that it's largely their own fault for not being smart enough to spawn somewhere else. I want people to have fun, but the way it worked before this was ridiculous...this is far better than the ship killing everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuciwalker Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 I feel like we've wasted far more time typing out alternative solutions than they spent dinking with code, so I don't really think anything more needs to be said. Listening to the hordes of "Wahh, I followed the big bad gunship to his cap ship and then I got hit by lasers and that was not my fault!" is a pretty poor decision. I'll say it briefly: Cap ships warding an area is fine. Cap ships warding a team of people huddled ahead by 2 points until time runs out is not fine. If your team is willing, or is forced, to give up 80% of the map, there should be some mechanic that makes you lose for doing that / having that happen to you. And that mechanic shouldn't be "u get spawn camped lewlz". The powerups seem a natural place to put this mechanic. The powerups aren't really powerful enough to do this, relative to the defensive advantage the turrets gave. The correct answer is to make it like hypergate: if the other team abandons mid there is some scoring item you can farm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elly_Dawn Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 (edited) i just had a nice little epiphany... turn the guns back on, but instead of the guns awarding a kill to the team they deduct a kill-point from the team... think on that one for a bit... it punishes sitting on & retreat to the Capitol Ship and protects the Spawn Points from Spawn Camping like it's supposed to, if points get deducted from a GS kiting another pilot to the Cap Ship the deduction becomes the fault of the deserter... Edited February 27, 2014 by Elly_Dawn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fractalsponge Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 i just had a nice little epiphany... turn the guns back on, but instead of the guns awarding a kill to the team they deduct a kill-point from the team... think on that one for a bit... it punishes sitting on & retreat to the Capitol Ship and protects the Spawn Points like it's supposed to, if points get deducted from a GS kiting another pilot to the Cap Ship the deduction becomes the fault of the deserter... LOL. Surely this wouldn't be abused, AT ALL . No seriously, get ahead a bit, and start suiciding on the turrets to keep the enemy score at 0. It'd be hilarious, once. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elly_Dawn Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 oh yeah... i was so focused on one group of griefers i totally neglected another... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
okiobe Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 i just had a nice little epiphany... turn the guns back on, but instead of the guns awarding a kill to the team they deduct a kill-point from the team... think on that one for a bit... it punishes sitting on & retreat to the Capitol Ship and protects the Spawn Points like it's supposed to, if points get deducted from a GS kiting another pilot to the Cap Ship the deduction becomes the fault of the deserter... Most ideas seem good when you only look at the common case or the intended purpose. If you want it to be more robust you have to look at the edge cases. Think of a losing team suicide a few times at the cap ship to even up the score. This problem we are trying to solve has more to do with unbalanced matches than it does teams choosing to sit on their cap ship. There are many good ideas to protect the spawn location and they are better than no protection at all. The second part of the solution will be to create better matchmaking to balance the matches. From my experience balanced matches do not play out on or near cap ships. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nefastuss Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 Best solution is STILL bringing the canons back. From all the ideas I saw this far its still the most functional one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptwonline Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 Best solution is STILL bringing the canons back. From all the ideas I saw this far its still the most functional one. Well, short term that is the thing to do. it's not perfect but much better than what there is now. Any new solution will likely have to be kept simple if we want to see a fix any time soon, so some of these elaborate suggestions probably won't be considered seriously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nefastuss Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 Well the longer they take to fix it the bigger is the damage. Already see people leaving deathmatches because of it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delta_V Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 Well the longer they take to fix it the bigger is the damage. Already see people leaving deathmatches because of it Really? I guess that shows just how different servers can be. Harbinger has been the exact opposite - people used to leave TDM because one team *always* ended up retreating to their capship to either protect a lead or use the turrets to tip the balance of a tight match, and it was just stupid and boring (when matches time out and the winning team has <30 kills, it's not fun). But since 2.6, I haven't seen a single instance of spawn camping, and TDM is simply more fun. Still, I can see the potential for issues with spawn camping, and agree something should be done. I've supported the "turn the area around capships into exhaustion zones, and give spawning ships a buff to protect them from it" idea because it's fairly straightforward, fixes *both* issues (spawn camping and teams retreating to capships), and nobody has been able to come up with potential flaws (aka way that griefers could exploit the system). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattycutts Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 ive seen spawn camping both from rep teams and emp teams on red eclispe, Last night on empire side, i looked and there was 2-3 of our ships at each rez point from team i was in, was not fun and im damn sure it wasnt fun for the rep team on receiving end. then i saw many TDM matchs where 2,3,4 at a time would leave b4 match started soon as it was seen it was tdm. before the change to capital ships i loved the new game mode but now its become as enjoyable as playing arenas in ground pvp. Please turn the turrets back on just no points awarded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brewski Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 I've seen spawn camping on both sides on The Shadowlands as well, although only one case of a blatant attempt to camp. The others I think are more fluid, and somewhat understandable. After all, you need to move where the enemy is in order to fight, and fighting is the point, so as one side gets the advantage then tend to push the other side back. It used to be that the turrets served as a wall where you had to stop the advance, and now they don't, so you end up fighting over and around the enemy capital ship instead. Not that this is a good thing, but I think in many cases it's not "intentional" camping so much as it is the natural progression of the battle in the absence of turrets. The addition of the third spawn point has, ironically, made it easier to camp in a way since you can boost between points very fast, so even if the losing side changes spawn points, it quickly pulls the enemy in. An interim solution that might mitigate this would be to swap the middle spawn points between factions. This would space them out more, and make it easier to switch points to one not currently covered. I think the only real log term solution is the exhaustion zone advocated by many on the forums, where the launching faction gets immunity until they leave the zone, but then cannot reenter either. (Although I still think making the spawn points every other one would be good too.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davionix Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 Another annoying part is if as a bomber you setup a fortified position with mines & hyperspace beacon for people to retreat to and spawn from you get the stupid non-contribution notice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nefastuss Posted March 2, 2014 Share Posted March 2, 2014 Yeah, bombers are making a mess in the spawn area. This thing of no guns in the capital ships is ruining the deathmatches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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