Why do people care so much about subscription numbers?

[Jett-Rinn]

True that is supposed to be the "BIGGEST" to date. Which means it would to be bigger than Makeb and most likely include something like GSF as well. "Best Case" appears to be August timeline for that to hit the streets. Well over a year from the original RoTHC (Makeb) release around 4/2/2013.

 

That would feed the "Once a year" is good enough for content release for players and I'm not going to hold my breath for a set of "Serious" upgrades to things broken and in need of upgrades as well. CRAFTING needs some serious updating, and if Legacy Leveling has meaning again with some REAL benefits I will be amazed when it's out.

 

Based on the Roadmap: http://www.swtor.com/info/news/news-article/20140203 we can "Guess" on things:

1) Most likely NO new operations June 10th since NIM DP is being release that date (They just won't do that)

2) Ability to RE items (78) most likely NOT going to happen until new Operations deploy 2nd Tier of Gear.

3) August is 2 months after the 2.8 planned date and most likely the first Operation if not BOTH of them (SM/HM)

4) Depending on New Levels/DLC, etc. we won't see new crafting materials/schematics until August (450>500).

 

Again it's all a wait and see, but content is content. From a PVE point only "Content" is going to be NIM until August 2014 and even that might be changed. I would LOVE to see new SM/HM Operations Drop on JUNE 10th and it would be a complete shock to the player community. I might actually keep my sub active this Summer then.. LOL

 

I think this is pretty spot on, I can bet the huge patch will be mostly GSF and PVP as that is the cheapest content to produce, from a PVE stand point I expect a very small bone. 2.8 is basically the last gasp for me, either they show me they still give a damn about the story line and PVE or I'll take my dollars elsewhere.

[Fantazm]

I don't care about them personally.

[NoFishing]

True that is supposed to be the "BIGGEST" to date. Which means it would to be bigger than Makeb and most likely include something like GSF as well.

 

The wording in the roadmap is a bit unclear, but the most plausible reading of that is that 2.8 will be the biggest update of the part of the roadmap that has been revealed. Or to put it in simpler terms, bigger than 2.6 or 2.7. The actual Makeb-sized expansion is almost certainly not coming in 2.8.

 

1) Most likely NO new operations June 10th since NIM DP is being release that date (They just won't do that)

2) Ability to RE items (78) most likely NOT going to happen until new Operations deploy 2nd Tier of Gear.

3) August is 2 months after the 2.8 planned date and most likely the first Operation if not BOTH of them (SM/HM)

4) Depending on New Levels/DLC, etc. we won't see new crafting materials/schematics until August (450>500).

 

1. Yep.

 

2. Guess we'll find out when the PTS goes live tomorrow, but I expect 78s will be craftable in 2.7 with NiM DF releasing a new tier of gear. It is what happened with 72s when 75s came with NiM TfB.

 

3. Since they are already hyping 2.8 as a major patch, I kinda doubt August is going to be very large. So I'm betting/hoping for October for the expansion. But whenever it arrives, it really does need to come with 2 brand new operations of 10-14 bosses total.

 

4. See #2. :-)

[jstankaroslo]

 

And another interesting fact...... they don't need to retain all the same customers in perpetuity in order to meet their plans and objectives as a company producing a product. It's completely OK that the playerbase changes/recycles over time. It's also OK for players to consume and move on to something else. As long as the game continues to thrive with a respectable level of active playerbase, the game continues to grow and expand, and players continue to have fun.

 

 

this is crucial. Are you a player or a shareholder? On these forums I mean.

EA sure is profitable, and their strategy on SWTOR may lead them to more money, and if I was a shareholder it would be good for me. Cut the costs, sustain the proit -that's the way to go.

 

But for the players -not so much. From player perspective we want this game to be as good as it can be, not as profitable and cost effective as it can be.

It is not very wise to defend -on player forum -the company strategy of delivering new content of so so quality as long as it is cost friendly for said company. I for one would like much more to stay and play improving game, then to become past member of 'recycled' playerbase.

 

SWTOR still has lots of potential, and I as a player I wish for it to be developed by people with passion for this game, not people who seem to look for a way to maximise profit with possible zero costs. That is common these days, lowering the standards and always looking for max profit, and it is sad that it also happens to SWTOR. It's odd though, that someone could defend that model, as it inevitably leads to worse product over time.

 

Don't get me wrong -I see many positive small changes in a gemeplay that been introduced in 2013, but I wish there was a true vision of this game, not just: let it last while it lasts, they'll eventually buy some new game from us.

Edited February 26, 2014 by jstankaroslo

[branmakmuffin]

Heh, "generally" probably isn't the word most of us would have chosen.

If you prefer "usually," fine by me.

[DarthTHC]

this is crucial. Are you a player or a shareholder? On these forums I mean.

EA sure is profitable, and their strategy on SWTOR may lead them to more money, and if I was a shareholder it would be good for me. Cut the costs, sustain the proit -that's the way to go.

 

But for the players -not so much. From player perspective we want this game to be as good as it can be, not as profitable and cost effective as it can be.

It is not very wise to defend -on player forum -the company strategy of delivering new content of so so quality as long as it is cost friendly for said company. I for one would like much more to stay and play improving game, then to become past member of 'recycled' playerbase.

 

SWTOR still has lots of potential, and I as a player I wish for it to be developed by people with passion for this game, not people who seem to look for a way to maximise profit with possible zero costs. That is common these days, lowering the standards and always looking for max profit, and it is sad that it also happens to SWTOR. It's odd though, that someone could defend that model, as it inevitably leads to worse product over time.

 

Don't get me wrong -I see many positive small changes in a gemeplay that been introduced in 2013, but I wish there was a true vision of this game, not just: let it last while it lasts, they'll eventually buy some new game from us.

 

On these forums, we are both players and share holders. The intelligent player realizes that the game must remain profitable in order for it to keep going.

 

It's great to want the game to improve. It's foolish to expect that improvement to come at the expense of profitability. The BioWare team has to find the balance between improvement and profit. We players would do well to understand that when we make our requests or set our own expectations.

[dscount]

The wording in the roadmap is a bit unclear, but the most plausible reading of that is that 2.8 will be the biggest update of the part of the roadmap that has been revealed. Or to put it in simpler terms, bigger than 2.6 or 2.7. The actual Makeb-sized expansion is almost certainly not coming in 2.8.

 

1. Yep.

 

2. Guess we'll find out when the PTS goes live tomorrow, but I expect 78s will be craftable in 2.7 with NiM DF releasing a new tier of gear. It is what happened with 72s when 75s came with NiM TfB.

 

3. Since they are already hyping 2.8 as a major patch, I kinda doubt August is going to be very large. So I'm betting/hoping for October for the expansion. But whenever it arrives, it really does need to come with 2 brand new operations of 10-14 bosses total.

 

4. See #2. :-)

 

Yes I'm eager to get on PTS, but I suspect RE of 78's will not happen until much later in the year. I'll be totally FINE with it if it does happen, but I suspect it's not going to happen. Here is why: NIM DP/DF will most likely drop 81 gear like NIM S&V/TFB dropped. I thought 72's didn't become craftable until 78's released, but you might be right. The primary reason is crafting materials. If they are the same ones then it's plausible, but if they require tier 11 mats we have to wait.

 

The Whole "going to be the biggest update up to this point " makes me think we have a seriously large chunk of content coming out. Now that could mean for this year or since the game released, but I would think such a bold statement would mean since game launch.

 

Again.. its a wait and see. I've my stock pile of 78's just ready to RE myself. Now if they just gave Blue MATS back I'd be a semi-happy crafter.

[Cernow]

Subscribers are not investors.

 

The time we spend on advancing our characters is not an investment because the gear goalposts are constantly moving and if the plug is pulled on the game our characters are wiped.

 

The money we spend on subscriptions and coins is not an investment either because we cannot know how much of it becomes profit and how much is reinvested to maintain and develop the game. We can trust that EA/Bioware finds the right balance between improvement and profit, but as consumers we cannot know for sure. Our only measure is our own perceptions of quality and value.

 

As consumers, if we feel we are getting value for money and enjoying ourselves, then we pay. If we don't, we can request things are done differently (but we have no right to expect they will be) or we walk away and stop paying. But large corporations don't really care about customer retention and whether it's you or someone else playing their game from one year to the next, just as long as the profits keep coming.

 

So don't ever feel invested in a big budget MMO. Enjoy it, but don't ever feel your loyalty and dedication will be rewarded beyond a few token points here and there. Anyone wanting a a different experience should go help fund a Kickstarter game and hope they stay independent. Even then, don't hold too many expectations because even if profit isn't the primary motivation of a studio, the development costs involved inevitably mean some compromises will have to be made.

[TravelersWay]

No. It is a sign of badly misreading the wants of the MMO audience. Or arrogance in thinking they could dictate the wants of the MMO audience. Either way, bad planning.

 

Consumers are never to blame for the failure of a consumer product.

 

Well then, the same could be said of ESO - even more so since F2P/Freemium has only grown in popularity in the 2+ years since SWTOR launched. BioWare made mistakes for certain - Alpha Hero Engine, EA thinking they could repeat WoW's perfect storm success, underestimating content locusts, opening too many servers after launch (though the scale of that mistake is very much debatable). However, misreading the wants of the MMO audience really isn't one of them - the MMO audience can't even agree on what it wants, and it was simply unfortunate timing that the face of the MMO business model underwent a paradigm shift just at the time that it was too late for EA and BW to really do anything about it. All companies make mistakes, but just like '08 and the aftermath, what separates the survivors from the losers are the ones that make the necessary course corrections to make up for those mistakes and outside factors. That has clearly been done with SWTOR and the game is now healthier and more popular because of it.

[CosmicKat]

...

 

It's great to want the game to improve. It's foolish to expect that improvement to come at the expense of profitability. The BioWare team has to find the balance between improvement and profit. We players would do well to understand that when we make our requests or set our own expectations.

 

When the McDonald's down the street completely remodels the place they do this knowing it will cost them business and profits for a time, with the hope and expectation that their investment in their business will lead to more business and profit down the road, or allow them to retain the level of profitability they have been previously enjoying.

 

"Spending money to make money" is as old a concept as capitalism itself, but apparently it doesn't apply to EA for some reason known only to a select few.

[DarthTHC]

When the McDonald's down the street completely remodels the place they do this knowing it will cost them business and profits for a time, with the hope and expectation that their investment in their business will lead to more business and profit down the road, or allow them to retain the level of profitability they have been previously enjoying.

 

"Spending money to make money" is as old a concept as capitalism itself, but apparently it doesn't apply to EA for some reason known only to a select few.

 

That's unfair and myopic. EA spent hundreds of millions making this game before they generated a penny of revenue from it. They already spent their money to make money.

 

Now they're using their revenue stream to continue development... continuing to spend money to make money. They're just doing it profitably now instead of eating a huge up-front expense for a hopeful payout later.

 

What do you think they should do? Fork out another $150-300 million to double the scope of the game or something?

[CosmicKat]

That's unfair and myopic. EA spent hundreds of millions making this game before they generated a penny of revenue from it. They already spent their money to make money.

 

Now they're using their revenue stream to continue development... continuing to spend money to make money. They're just doing it profitably now instead of eating a huge up-front expense for a hopeful payout later.

 

What do you think they should do? Fork out another $150-300 million to double the scope of the game or something?

 

The game and the tools that built it already exist. There is no giant investment needed to improve, expand, or change it.

 

For proof of this, take a look at any site offering hak's to Bethesda's RPG's. You'll find thousands of improvements that greatly improve those games, all made by amateurs using Bethesda's supplied editors and a few freeware programs.

[CosmicKat]

Well then, the same could be said of ESO - even more so since F2P/Freemium has only grown in popularity in the 2+ years since SWTOR launched. BioWare made mistakes for certain - Alpha Hero Engine, EA thinking they could repeat WoW's perfect storm success, underestimating content locusts, opening too many servers after launch (though the scale of that mistake is very much debatable). However, misreading the wants of the MMO audience really isn't one of them - the MMO audience can't even agree on what it wants, and it was simply unfortunate timing that the face of the MMO business model underwent a paradigm shift just at the time that it was too late for EA and BW to really do anything about it. All companies make mistakes, but just like '08 and the aftermath, what separates the survivors from the losers are the ones that make the necessary course corrections to make up for those mistakes and outside factors. That has clearly been done with SWTOR and the game is now healthier and more popular because of it.

 

Arrogance in game design isn't necessarily a bad thing.

 

Everquest arrogantly dictated that PvP was a major hurdle that was killing MMO's mainstream appeal at the time, so they made a game with no PvP. They were right and you would not be playing WoW or TOR today without that leap by SOE.

 

Bioware arrogantly dictated that the RPG was not completely dead after Diablo ripped out it's heart. They re-imagined the "oldschool" RPG into Baldur's Gate. They were right. There would be no Bioware today if they hadn't made that leap.

 

What is a bad thing is deciding that you know better, being proven wrong, and still clinging to that belief, or worse yet, blaming the intended audience for not accepting it.

[DarthTHC]

The game and the tools that built it already exist. There is no giant investment needed to improve, expand, or change it.

 

For proof of this, take a look at any site offering hak's to Bethesda's RPG's. You'll find thousands of improvements that greatly improve those games, all made by amateurs using Bethesda's supplied editors and a few freeware programs.

 

Cool. Could you please share with us your MMO design and development resume including relevant experience working at BioWare on SWTOR so we can take your statements as informed opinion at worst, fact at best, instead of what it looks like which is straight out of your a...irhole?

[Arkerus]

The game and the tools that built it already exist. There is no giant investment needed to improve, expand, or change it.

 

For proof of this, take a look at any site offering hak's to Bethesda's RPG's. You'll find thousands of improvements that greatly improve those games, all made by amateurs using Bethesda's supplied editors and a few freeware programs.

 

I'm not going to sugar coat this, your statements are grossly ignorant. And quite honestly I am not trying to be mean or anything.

 

You have ZERO way to know what kind and how much investment any kind of project would take.

Edited February 26, 2014 by Arkerus

[dscount]

I'm not going to sugar coat this, your statements are grossly ignorant.

 

You have ZERO way to know what kind and how much investment any kind of project would take.

 

All that said is pretty and all, but here is the bottom line: CONTENT is taking 1 year+ to hit the server. I could take an educated ESTIMATE of the development of this product based on worse case from some IT SW Dev Projects I've done on some nasty systems. And YES they can develop quicker if they funded the efforts from the CM windfall. Its all about resources, management of requirements and costs associated.

 

As a "Player" I would like to see that increase in order to get value for my money. If not then it's almost to the point I'm going to login for 2-3 months clear the new content and then log out for 6-9 months only to login again when the content is deployed. (Login meaning a SUB or using Weekly Operations PASS).

 

I'm at the point where I'm stocking up on my Weekly OP's passes. I don't have faith we have real content coming for a while. I don't mind being "Preferred" while I go play ESO or Wildstar waiting for BW to get its $hit together. Sorry it's all about personal economics as well as corporate economics we can all guess for hours on end and slap "You don't know".. blah blah blah stuff, but it's about what the MMO players want and balance of what can be delivered within budget.. Is BW/EA being too greedy to feed this game or are they too focused on other things? LOL

Edited February 26, 2014 by dscount

[CosmicKat]

Cool. Could you please share with us your MMO design and development resume including relevant experience working at BioWare on SWTOR so we can take your statements as informed opinion at worst, fact at best, instead of what it looks like which is straight out of your a...irhole?

 

It's not rocket science.

 

Creating the tools to mod a game is rocket science. Using them is slightly more complex than playing a game like the Sims, or using the base editor and/or mission editor in CoH. It takes some time, but no amount of programming knowledge is required.

[DarthTHC]

It's not rocket science.

 

Creating the tools to mod a game is rocket science. Using them is slightly more complex than playing a game like the Sims, or using the base editor and/or mission editor in CoH. It takes some time, but no amount of programming knowledge is required.

 

I can buy that for building landscapes.

 

I'm not sure if I buy that for building anything that requires scripting, like boss fights in flash points and operations.

 

I am certain I don't buy that for building things that require new, unique scripting like boss fights with new mechanics. You know, the kind that might present a new challenge worth playing?

 

But I'd still love to see your resume that clarifies the source of your expertise on how the world-building tool for SWTOR works. People accuse some posters here of being BioWare employees because they ask people trashing the game questions and point out flaws in logic. But your own statements mean you either must have worked on SWTOR or are currently working on SWTOR. Or you're talking out your a...irhole. Pick one.

Edited February 26, 2014 by DarthTHC

[CosmicKat]

I'm not going to sugar coat this, your statements are grossly ignorant. And quite honestly I am not trying to be mean or anything.

 

You have ZERO way to know what kind and how much investment any kind of project would take.

 

Have you ever used any modding tools for any game?

 

You don't need to know how to make a pencil to draw with one.

[dscount]

Actually Darth - the tools used for development for the HERO engine should be fairly common across the industry. Much like Microsoft .Net developers tools kits are for a lot of Microsoft type content. (Not saying that's what SWTOR uses, but you get the jest).

 

The "Knowledge" or historical roadmap knowledge on how BW manipulates the entire game and all the programs is a different story and varies from product to product. For example the GSF is most likely a completely written offshot of the HERO engine and time was most likely spent building the BRIDGE to/from the existing Hero Engine. I could be completely wrong, but that's what I suspect based on my experience. Maybe they wrote it completely in the HERO engine as well (I don't know w/o that Historical Roadmap knowledge).

 

Want proof? Goto REDDIT and look at the source code they have data mined. Look familiar? I'm sure if you plug in a couple of the keep items you will see a pattern.

 

Bottom Line: Development tools are in place, knowing how to use them against the "SWTOR of today Design" is kept internal and typically compared against for what can and can not be done in the game. (Technical Limitations of design and also being tied to limits of software industry "HERO" engine)

[Arkerus]

Have you ever used any modding tools for any game?

 

You don't need to know how to make a pencil to draw with one.

 

Modding tools in other games have nothing to do with SWTOR. Your argument is invalid. You can't take other product's modding tools and try to apply that argument here.

 

Are you saying the "tools" already exist? Of course they do. How do you think SWTOR devs create planets, sequences, maps, worlds, triggers, etc. Modding tools are just dumbed down versions of the in house development tools.

 

Your argument about spending a ton of money to make more money later is completely invalid as well. All projects, all investments follow a specific strategy of measuring risk and ROI.

 

SWTOR has money dumped into it EVERY. SINGLE. DAY. Its the only way we get content, story, features, new models, GSF, etc. They invest money all the time.

 

No one in their right mind can make the math work on some large scale, ridiculous sandbox (or similar) investment. No one is going to dump millions of dollars into time, employees, energy, servers, whatever to overhaul a game when it...wait for it...doesn't need it.

 

If you want to get a job at EA and try and convince them otherwise, be my guest. They already have people smarter than you (or me) doing it. They get paid to do it and unless they want to get fired, they are very good at it.

 

Welcome to real life.

Edited February 26, 2014 by Arkerus

[CosmicKat]

I can buy that for building landscapes.

 

I'm not sure if I buy that for building anything that requires scripting, like boss fights in flash points and operations.

 

I am certain I don't buy that for building things that require new, unique scripting like boss fights with new mechanics. You know, the kind that might present a new challenge worth playing?

 

But I'd still love to see your resume that clarifies the source of your expertise on how the world-building tool for SWTOR works. People accuse some posters here of being BioWare employees because they ask people trashing the game questions and point out flaws in logic. But your own statements mean you either must have worked on SWTOR or are currently working on SWTOR. Or you're talking out your a...irhole. Pick one.

 

Give it up. I never claimed to be an expert in any way.

 

That is the point. It's easy for a non-expert to mod an existing game, given the tools to do so.

 

If you think the people who actually design a map and/or "script" a mob's behaviour have any knowledge of what the tools they are using to do so actually do, then you do not understand the difference between programming and design.

[TUXs]

Modding tools in other games have nothing to do with SWTOR.

 

But how often other games release content is? Seems like a bit of a double standard.

[Arkerus]

I can buy that for building landscapes.

 

I'm not sure if I buy that for building anything that requires scripting, like boss fights in flash points and operations.

 

I am certain I don't buy that for building things that require new, unique scripting like boss fights with new mechanics. You know, the kind that might present a new challenge worth playing?

 

But I'd still love to see your resume that clarifies the source of your expertise on how the world-building tool for SWTOR works. People accuse some posters here of being BioWare employees because they ask people trashing the game questions and point out flaws in logic. But your own statements mean you either must have worked on SWTOR or are currently working on SWTOR. Or you're talking out your a...irhole. Pick one.

 

The vocal forum goers make broad, sweeping statements trying to equate what they see with their eyes to internal processes. Its ridiculous and there is no convincing some of the most vocal forum users that real life is different than their assumptions.

 

No one understands that anything done in SWTOR costs time, energy and money. And if you apply those to a game you better have an ROI to justify it.

 

Spoiler Alert: Video game companies exist for ONE soul purpose, to make money.

[TUXs]

No one understands that anything done in SWTOR costs time, energy and money.

I understand...I'm somebody. In fact, I bet EVERYBODY here understands that anything done in SWTOR costs time, energy and money...who exactly do you think doesn't realize that?