Arkerus Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 Bearing in mind, that this is (of course) only my opinion: Decision making in the entertainment industry has a worse track record than decision making than in many (if not most) other fields. I say this as an ex-insider in the movie-making business. Oh. My. Freaking. Zog. The things I saw happen on a day-today basis truly boggled the mind. I've spent a much happier and much more productive life in the technology industry since I ran away screaming from Hollywood in a desperate attempt to save my sanity. From reading Tales from the Trenches, it seems that the games industry is plagued by similar troubles. If I've been overly challenging against assertions about EA's corporate decision-making abilities, it is because I have seen so many poor decisions made first hand. Definitely going to be doing some reading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkerus Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 (edited) I don't see how anyone could think this was presented as a fact. But this entire thread you've been trying to derail it in very odd directions (really, who gives a **** about the specifics of how you make decisions in your business? how is that relevant to this game?). Lol. Why yes, it very much is relevant. Its how they decided to even make this game to begin with. Its how a typical design / project team decides to do project A or project B. Its extremely relevant. Edited February 27, 2014 by Arkerus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jstankaroslo Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 Maybe that's why I am cynical already. Future me came back and visited but I just don't remember. why is it these days that people seem to be proud of being cynical? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hadoken Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 Lol. Why yes, it very much is relevant. Its how they decided to even make this game to begin with. Its how a typical design / project team decides to do project A or project B. Its extremely relevant. Yes about as relevant as stating a game made for a PC runs on a PC. Derailing for the sake of talking about what you do for a living, as if any of us give a ****. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TravelersWay Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 (edited) I never said there was any "Standard" to emulate. Few games are ever going to launch with every feature that every other MMO has found a better way to do. TOR though was missing many of these evolutionary improvements, and their reaction to the complaints/criticism/suggestions to add those things sure seemed to catch them totally off guard, as though they only ever looked at one game to emulate. Or they looked at many games (since as I keep repeating many games do not have one or more of these features in them to some extent or another), and/or simply decided that many of these features simply did not befit the design of the game (or are not that necessary in order to put on a priority task list). In the end, no one but BW knows exactly what they were thinking or what (if anything) they wanted to emulate. It gets down (again) to the simple fact that these features, though desired by certain segments of the playerbase, are not standard to the MMO genre, are often not necessary and offer no real tangible benefit to a game based on design, and in many cases not even wanted by many other segments of the playerbase. Evidenced by the fact that despite 10+ years of the genre existing, none of these things is standard, and games before and since the release of SWTOR has not included them. The increased popularity of the F2P model is partly true, and partly smoke and mirrors. Paid accounts are an absolute, free accounts are not. Creating multiple accounts is common. Accounts made just to try the game and then never logged on again. Subscribers with F2P accounts just because.... all of these things, and more, inflate the totals. At any rate, a good number of them will never pay a cent to the company, and as such, are completely meaningless. And there will also be a good number of them that convert into regular paying customers and some even to subscribers. Arkerus said it best. That's why you will see all sorts of free and trial offers not just in the gaming industry, but in business in general. No one worth their salt in business sees people who take advantage of these offers as meaningless. They see them as potential customers, and at the very least, word of mouth advertising. Free accounts in a game may be meaningless to players who prefer to use conjecture and straw man arguments to try to justify their own opinions, but in the end, such consideration is what turns out to be meaningless. The actual numbers prove out that the F2P business model is lucrative (and has been for at least as long as the sub-based model), and has saved a number of games from certain cancellation because the switch brought in more profitability than could be gained through sheer subscriber fees alone. Edited February 27, 2014 by TravelersWay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkerus Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 (edited) Yes about as relevant as stating a game made for a PC runs on a PC. Derailing for the sake of talking about what you do for a living, as if any of us give a ****. I explained how it was relevant, which is nothing like you said. Cheers to you too! Lol. Edited February 27, 2014 by Arkerus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CosmicKat Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 .... And there will also be a good number of them that convert into regular paying customers and some even to subscribers. Arkerus said it best. That's why you will see all sorts of free and trial offers not just in the gaming industry, but in business in general. No one worth their salt in business sees people who take advantage of these offers as meaningless. They see them as potential customers, and at the very least, word of mouth advertising. Free accounts in a game may be meaningless to players who prefer to use conjecture and straw man arguments to try to justify their own opinions, but in the end, such consideration is what turns out to be meaningless. The actual numbers prove out that the F2P business model is lucrative (and has been for at least as long as the sub-based model), and has saved a number of games from certain cancellation because the switch brought in more profitability than could be gained through sheer subscriber fees alone. That must be why they keep adding new servers then, to facilitate all the new players? Don't kid yourself. Their F2P model is all about charging the hardcore Star Wars fan more money. Since launch day, the only thing I have seen that noticeably increased the number of players is GSF, and that was when it was only available to subscribers. Imagine that. Creating new content and making it free to subscribers will increase business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TravelersWay Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 (edited) That must be why they keep adding new servers then, to facilitate all the new players? No, but the change to the server infrastructure to hold more players per server was. But of course, you probably believe that to be all smoke and mirrors as well, so pointless to debate the point. Don't kid yourself. Their F2P model is all about charging the hardcore Star Wars fan more money. So is making more movies. So is re-releasing the movies on DVD/Blu-ray in various types of incarnations and packages. So is making any and all types of Star Wars video game. So is the continual merchandising of the franchise for the last 40 years. Business as usual in a business oriented environment. Nothing more to see here, move along please. Since launch day, the only thing I have seen that noticeably increased the number of players is GSF, and that was when it was only available to subscribers. Imagine that. Creating new content and making it free to subscribers will increase business. Anecdotal evidence is just that. I could say I saw an increase in players after 1.2 and 1.3, then again after 1.4, and then again after RotHC, and then after GSF. Again, business as usual in the MMO world - active players drop between major patches/expansions then increase when the content is added. All I see here is just another successful MMO that follows the trend just like all the others. Move along please. Edited February 28, 2014 by TravelersWay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkerus Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 No, but the change to the server infrastructure to hold more players to servers was. But of course, you probably believe that to be all smoke and mirrors as well, so pointless to debate the point. So is making more movies. So is re-releasing the movies on DVD/Blu-ray in various types of incarnations and packages. So is making any and all types of Star Wars video game. So is the continual merchandising of the franchise for the last 40 years. Business as usual in a business oriented environment. Nothing more to see here, move along please. Anecdotal evidence is just that. I could say I saw an increase in players after 1.2 and 1.3, then again after 1.4, and then again after RotHC, and then after GSF. Again, business as usual in the MMO world - active players drop between major patches/expansions then increase when the content is added. All I see here is just another successful MMO that follows the trend just like all the others. Move along please. I find it odd so many gamers are shocked to find out games exist to make money and as much of it as possible. CK won't move on until he/she quits...and then comes back... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Infernixx Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 I find it odd so many gamers are shocked to find out games exist to make money and as much of it as possible. CK won't move on until he/she quits...and then comes back... She does seem to enjoy paying for stuff she doesn't like. Makes me wonder if she goes to the same restaurant, buys the special and then spends the entire meal complaining to the other customers before paying for her meal and leaving. And she returns every single day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CosmicKat Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 No, but the change to the server infrastructure to hold more players to servers was. But of course, you probably believe that to be all smoke and mirrors as well, so pointless to debate the point. So is making more movies. So is re-releasing the movies on DVD/Blu-ray in various types of incarnations and packages. So is making any and all types of Star Wars video game. So is the continual merchandising of the franchise for the last 40 years. Business as usual in a business oriented environment. Nothing more to see here, move along please. Anecdotal evidence is just that. I could say I saw an increase in players after 1.2 and 1.3, then again after 1.4, and then again after RotHC, and then after GSF. Again, business as usual in the MMO world - active players drop between major patches/expansions then increase when the content is added. All I see here is just another successful MMO that follows the trend just like all the others. Move along please. The changes to server infrastructure was at least partly PR to blunt the embarassing news of 90+% server contraction. Do they hold more? Probably, yes. So what it is then? Is it a trial period to lure new customers (which already existed prior to F2P, by the way) or a "let's sell collectibles to people who have shown a propensity for buying collectibles"? Yes anecdotal evidence is anecdotal. Seeing things for yourself though, is about the only "proof" you'll ever get. Disseminate that evidence how you will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CosmicKat Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 I find it odd so many gamers are shocked to find out games exist to make money and as much of it as possible. ... Something that has never been disputed by me. The way to make more money is what is up for debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CosmicKat Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 She does seem to enjoy paying for stuff she doesn't like. Makes me wonder if she goes to the same restaurant, buys the special and then spends the entire meal complaining to the other customers before paying for her meal and leaving. And she returns every single day. I don't like the Cartel Market. I have never, and will never, spend a penny on it. I don't complain about the game in the game, nor have I ever stated, or inferred that the game is not worth $15/month to me. I have stated, and inferred, that the game was not worth $15 to the vast majority who bought it. But then, facts rarely get in the way of your flames now do they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Infernixx Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 I don't like the Cartel Market. I have never, and will never, spend a penny on it. I don't complain about the game in the game, nor have I ever stated, or inferred that the game is not worth $15/month to me. I have stated, and inferred, that the game was not worth $15 to the vast majority who bought it. But then, facts rarely get in the way of your flames now do they? I'm not sure how any of that is relevant to my opinion that you seem to be very okay with spending money to play a game that you're consistently and perpetually unhappy with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkerus Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 I'm not sure how any of that is relevant to my opinion that you seem to be very okay with spending money to play a game that you're consistently and perpetually unhappy with. At some point I just find the whole thing amusing. All that hate, just to toss more money at it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TravelersWay Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 (edited) So what it is then? Is it a trial period to lure new customers (which already existed prior to F2P, by the way) or a "let's sell collectibles to people who have shown a propensity for buying collectibles" The way to make more money is what is up for debate. It's looking at the market conditions and the metrics and understanding what current business model is the best for maximizing profits. At this point in time, it is the hybrid "Freemium" model. Ultimately, yes it's about selling items in a cash shop that have been proven to be popular purchases by gamers. Again, absolutely nothing wrong with that. That is how business works. Blizzard understands that as does Zenimax, hence why they have choosen to add cash shops to their games on top of the required subscription fee. Maximizing profits. There really is no debate because, like Digital Distribution and DLC before it, the gaming industry has tapped into a profitable model based on the desires of the gaming community. There is only a debate because there still lies a segment of the gaming community that refuses to live in the 21st Century. Society has changed and thusly the industry has changed. We are here because, despite the initial outcry, more people had no problem buying $10 horse armor than did. Like it or not, that's the way the world works. Life isn't fair for some people. No sense blaming a publisher, a developer, or a game for catering to what the majority of the gaming community wants. It's called good business. Those who do not like it either need to learn to live with it and adapt or ultimately find a new hobby to enjoy. I know I did with the two above mentioned changes to the industry, and am ultimately glad I did as I am enjoying more games than I ever have before. Next up is the "Games as a Service" concept. We'll have to wait to see how much traction this one gets. Perhaps, if this becomes normal and accepted, it could be the point where I find a new hobby (or go back to playing board games). Only time will tell. Edited February 28, 2014 by TravelersWay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khevar Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 Definitely going to be doing some reading. Don't miss: Getting in trouble for finding a console-crashing bug Being ordered not to report bugs Being fired for discovering the MMO chat window allows SQL injection Launching a game with known reported heavy bugs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkerus Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 It's looking at the market conditions and the metrics and understanding what current business model is the best for maximizing profits. At this point in time, it is the hybrid "Freemium" model. Ultimately, yes it's about selling items in a cash shop that have been proven to be popular purchases by gamers. Again, absolutely nothing wrong with that. That is how business works. Blizzard understands that as does Zenimax, hence why they have choosen to add cash shops to their games on top of the required subscription fee. Maximizing profits. There really is no debate because, like Digital Distribution and DLC before it, the gaming industry has tapped into a profitable model based on the desires of the gaming community. There is only a debate because there still lies a segment of the gaming community that refuses to live in the 21st Century. Society has changed and thusly the industry has changed. We are here because, despite the initial outcry, more people had no problem buying $10 horse armor than did. Like it or not, that's the way the world works. Life isn't fair for some people. No sense blaming a publisher, a developer, or a game for catering to what the majority of the gaming community wants. It's called good business. Those who do not like it either need to learn to live with it and adapt or ultimately find a new hobby to enjoy. I know I did with the two above mentioned changes to the industry, and am ultimately glad I did as I am enjoying more games than I ever have before. Next up is the "Games as a Service" concept. We'll have to wait to see how much traction this one gets. Perhaps, if this becomes normal and accepted, it could be the point where I find a new hobby (or go back to playing board games). Only time will tell. Really well laid out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TravelersWay Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 (edited) Really well laid out. I have my moments. Edited February 28, 2014 by TravelersWay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkerus Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 Don't miss: Getting in trouble for finding a console-crashing bug Being ordered not to report bugs Being fired for discovering the MMO chat window allows SQL injection Launching a game with known reported heavy bugs. Fantastic site... That said, you have to read between the lines on some of these. I found things that a lot of people did that would have caused them to get fired that had nothing to do with why they said they got fired. Thanks for the link though. I do agree generally, these contracts and QA departments are run terribly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CosmicKat Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 At some point I just find the whole thing amusing. All that hate, just to toss more money at it. You have a very black and white definition of "hate" apparently. You know what I find absolutely hilarious? People who spend hours of every day acting as the apologists/PR spin doctors for a giant, billion dollar corporation. Now that is something truly odd and bizarre. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkerus Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 You have a very black and white definition of "hate" apparently. You know what I find absolutely hilarious? People who spend hours of every day acting as the apologists/PR spin doctors for a giant, billion dollar corporation. Now that is something truly odd and bizarre. I think this is the part where I do the cartoon evil laugh. Muhahahahahahaha! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TravelersWay Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 (edited) You have a very black and white definition of "hate" apparently. You know what I find absolutely hilarious? People who spend hours of every day acting as the apologists/PR spin doctors for a giant, billion dollar corporation. Now that is something truly odd and bizarre. And amazingly enough - that changes nothing because that is the current state of the Gaming Industry where we stand. Once again, players either need to accept it and adapt, or they will need to find a hobby that is more acceptable to their own personal standards of business and entertainment. Edited February 28, 2014 by TravelersWay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CosmicKat Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 And amazingly enough - that changes nothing because that is the current state of the Gaming Industry where we stand. Once again, players either need to accept it and adapt, or they will need to find a hobby that is more acceptable to their own personal standards of business and entertainment. You underestimate the power we consumers have. Stop "accepting it" and it will change, rapidly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Infernixx Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 You underestimate the power we consumers have. Stop "accepting it" and it will change, rapidly. How many consumers do you have in your pocket? I think you need reminding, yet again for the hundredth time, that you speak only for yourself. That 'we' that you use exists only in your head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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