Summing up the problems: What is wrong with class balance?

[XORDYH]

I'm not sure why PT's need a gap closer though, you're a ranged class, can you please elaborate?

 

Powertechs are a ranged class in the same sense that Operatives are: they aren't. A ranged free attack does not make you a ranged class.

[KeyboardNinja]

I would like to see your guardian tank keeping aggro against my opener without a guard on my ***..

 

No fing way

 

PTS threat battle! Name the time and world boss. ;-)

 

More seriously, Infil opening burst is delayed by two GCDs. That's enough time for me to get a roughly 12-15k head start. By mid-GCD 4, the boss is taunt debuffed and my threat is multiplied.

[Evolixe]

PTS threat battle! Name the time and world boss. ;-)

 

More seriously, Infil opening burst is delayed by two GCDs. That's enough time for me to get a roughly 12-15k head start. By mid-GCD 4, the boss is taunt debuffed and my threat is multiplied.

 

Delayed by 2 GCD's?

 

I don't open with Spinning Kick Fyi. Straight from Breach > Project > CVS > CVS > Shadow Strike

 

Both Breach and Project having a 90% crit chance.. that's going to be 20k thread in 2 seconds easily.

Edited March 1, 2014 by Evolixe

[KeyboardNinja]

Delayed by 2 GCD's?

 

I don't open with Spinning Kick Fyi. Straight from Breach > Project > CVS > CVS > Shadow Strike

 

Both Breach and Project having a 90% crit chance.. that's going to be 20k thread in 2 seconds easily.

 

Oh, if you open with potency breach > project, then you'll pull. I can get 15k in 2 seconds, but not 20 without burning potency early. I assumed you opened with double CS.

Edited March 1, 2014 by KeyboardNinja

[Evolixe]

Oh, if you open with potency breach > project, then you'll pull. I can get 15k in 2 seconds, but not 20 without burning potency early. I assumed you opened with double CS.

 

Hell no

[Vaidinah]

Going to skip past a bunch of stuff as your analogy is poor and more than one topic is too much for you.

 

I said that every 16 man nim group used more then 4 healers for progression (not for every Boss tough). Which was completely true.

I remember you were simply not able to understand that a boss has a much easier enrage timer if he has 62% health more, but a group has 150% more dps and so on....

 

For the record: We did beat NiM 16 man Dread Guards with 6 dps.

 

Oh really? You brought that up before and you were proven wrong last time. I'm unsure why you want to make the claim that every 16 man NiM group uses more than 4 healers for progression when Intrepid, Severity, and Chosen all had people telling you that they did not for the vast majority of time. In fact, we only used 5 healers for one fight (Cartel Warlods) and that player respecced after the 1st phase was over. Maybe you don't think it's possible just because your team is not good enough to do so, but there are other teams out there that did it.

 

Your own Quote:

 

You want a tank challenge compared to dps/healer challenge as you say. So you find a dummy fight awesome.

 

Nope, you still don't get it. I want a challenge that encompasses more than just doing the basics of your role. Thus, for a tank challenge, instead of being challenged sololy on our ability to mitigate damage and/or a decent opener, you are ALSO challenged on doing a good rotation, how to have good positioning, and so on at the exact same time.

[THoK-Zeus]

Going to skip past a bunch of stuff as your analogy is poor and more than one topic is too much for you.

Another way of saying: I am completely wrong, i guess.

 

Oh really? You brought that up before and you were proven wrong last time. I'm unsure why you want to make the claim that every 16 man NiM group uses more than 4 healers for progression when Intrepid, Severity, and Chosen all had people telling you that they did not for the vast majority of time. In fact, we only used 5 healers for one fight (Cartel Warlods) and that player respecced after the 1st phase was over. Maybe you don't think it's possible just because your team is not good enough to do so, but there are other teams out there that did it.

I said every 16 man nim used more then 4 healers for Progression. You say Intrepid, Severity and Chosen used more then 4 healers for Progression and you tell me i was proven wrong. I guess that is your standard logic then .

Then another few random insults...

 

 

 

Nope, you still don't get it. I want a challenge that encompasses more than just doing the basics of your role. Thus, for a tank challenge, instead of being challenged sololy on our ability to mitigate damage and/or a decent opener, you are ALSO challenged on doing a good rotation, how to have good positioning, and so on at the exact same time.

You said you want a challenge like the Raptus challenge, which is a dummy fight. If you now want something else fine.

Edited March 3, 2014 by THoK-Zeus

[Evolixe]

Can you kiddos knock it off or continue somewhere else?

 

Thank you.

[morfius]

Short answer:

Jet Charge without Interrupt would be terrible for both PvE and PvP...

Vanguards already have two powerful gap-closers as basic class skills; VG tanks have three. If you think, you need more, you are wrong.

 

Longer answer:

Removal of the Interrupt-capability of Jet Charge would drastically decrease it's value as a tactical tool in both PvE and PvP. As a matter of fact, Jet Charges Interrupt is the most important thing about Jet Charge, spoken from a PvE tanks point of view. Sure, as a gap closer it's useful. But having the ability to Interrupt technically from 30m away PLUS beeing in range to use the normal Interrupt, is priceless.

 

I never understood other VGs complaining about the lack of a baseline Jet Charge/Storm, especially after we got Hold the Line as a baseline ability. In the right hands, VGs have tactical tools for EVERY situation they may encounter. If you think a baseline knockdown-immunity-short-cooldown-speedboost PLUS a baseline pull PLUS a skillable 30m-interrupting-charge is not enough, you s*ck at playing. Sorry, no offense, but it is as easy.

 

VG dps need a special weakness, VG tanks need their multitudinousness, to make them special.

It's just part of the class design. If every dps class would have a charge, then every dps class should have a pull. Then every dps class should have a sprint, too. And after some steps, there would be no need to have multiple dps classes.

 

Just swap harpoon ( to go to same talent in same tree) and storm (to be AC skill) and leave talent buff to interrupt with storm as it is.

Issue solved.

HTL is very nice but still means you miss some GCD running till other DPS just jump or get 150% speed boost (or double roll in 2.7 for Scoundrels).

So please loose the elitist attitude.

[TheSupaCoopa]

Just swap harpoon ( to go to same talent in same tree) and storm (to be AC skill) and leave talent buff to interrupt with storm as it is.

Issue solved.

HTL is very nice but still means you miss some GCD running till other DPS just jump or get 150% speed boost (or double roll in 2.7 for Scoundrels).

So please loose the elitist attitude.

 

I don't understand why people think that it would be a good idea to swap Harpoon and Storm. That would solve NOTHING.

[AngelFluttershy]

@Evolixe: As long as someone accuses me of lieing or similar, i feel i have a right to answer back. I couldn't care less if someone is not smart enough to understand the basic mathematics behind my arguments, but as long as people personally attack me here (and are allowed to do so) i won't stop posting.

I think Evo meant for you to take that conversation elsewhere, like to private messaging, to prevent this topic from getting derailed. If you're getting personally attacked it's best to just report the posts by the offending user where you're harassed and move on, as per BW's forum policy.

 

Also, I'd like to remind those posting that this thread was created to get a sense of where players thought imbalances among classes exist, not to offer solutions to possible balancing issues or dissect each other's comments. I don't mean to dismiss everyone's input on solutions and their feedback to others' thoughts, but this may not be the place to talk about these things (i.e. it may be off-topic). If I'm wrong in my observation, feel free to correct me Evolixe.

Edited March 3, 2014 by AngelFluttershy

[TheSupaCoopa]

 

I'm not sure why PT's need a gap closer though, you're a ranged class, can you please elaborate?

 

You clearly don't play a PT(I don't say this to be condescending). The only thing 30m skills we have are Unload(Which no one in the right mind would use as a rotational move), Rapid Shots, and Rail shot(Which needs periodic damage in order to be used). Pts are more of a melee class. Just because we have a blaster does not make us a ranges class. By the same logic, Sages would be melee classes because they have lightsabers.

 

TL;DR PTs have ranged abilities, but we are only able to preporm our best when we are in the "in-your-face" range.

[Falver]

I'm going to sum up the immature arguments on VGs/PTs very simply:

 

Argument 1: VGs have hold the line and harpoon in PvP, they don't need a leap.

Argument 2: VGs can't use harpoon on an ops boss, making it an irrelevant gap closer in PvE while hold the line is not as drastic a speed boost as force speed.

Edited March 3, 2014 by Falver

[Evolixe]

You clearly don't play a PT(I don't say this to be condescending). The only thing 30m skills we have are Unload(Which no one in the right mind would use as a rotational move), Rapid Shots, and Rail shot(Which needs periodic damage in order to be used). Pts are more of a melee class. Just because we have a blaster does not make us a ranges class. By the same logic, Sages would be melee classes because they have lightsabers.

 

TL;DR PTs have ranged abilities, but we are only able to preporm our best when we are in the "in-your-face" range.

 

I don't, or at least havn't touched my level 38 one for over 6 months. Hence I'm asking

 

Also, I'd like to remind those posting that this thread was created to get a sense of where players thought imbalances among classes exist, not to offer solutions to possible balancing issues or dissect each other's comments. I don't mean to dismiss everyone's input on solutions and their feedback to others' thoughts, but this may not be the place to talk about these things (i.e. it may be off-topic). If I'm wrong in my observation, feel free to correct me Evolixe.

 

Nope, hit the nail. I do like elaboration sometimes though, if the issue at hand hasnt already been cleared and put on the list.. I know the classes MOSTLY, I know what they can do against me and how they fare in doing so. But I don't know each and every detail.

Edited March 3, 2014 by Evolixe

[Gyronamics]

You clearly don't play a PT(I don't say this to be condescending). The only thing 30m skills we have are Unload(Which no one in the right mind would use as a rotational move), Rapid Shots, and Rail shot(Which needs periodic damage in order to be used). Pts are more of a melee class. Just because we have a blaster does not make us a ranges class. By the same logic, Sages would be melee classes because they have lightsabers.

 

TL;DR PTs have ranged abilities, but we are only able to preporm our best when we are in the "in-your-face" range.

 

If by "in-your-face" you mean over twice the normal 4m melee range of 10m on most attacks then yes they are.

 

PT has a very forgiving engagement range which is wide enough to kite the sabre melee and hang outside the range of knockbacks from ranged. They certainly do not suffer the same extremely short range of sabre melee and I say that is some compensation against not having a basic leap.

Edited March 3, 2014 by Gyronamics

[KeyboardNinja]

If by "in-your-face" you mean over twice the normal 4m melee range of 10m on most attacks then yes they are.

 

PT has a very forgiving engagement range which is wide enough to kite the sabre melee and hang outside the range of knockbacks from ranged. They certainly do not suffer the same extremely short range of sabre melee and I say that is some compensation against not having a basic leap.

 

In PvP, absolutely. PvE is much more punishing to classes who lose out on sustained DPS due to travel downtime. It's sort of ok on most bosses, and generally just a severe annoyance, but there have been bosses where it has made a difference in the past, and it seems likely that there will be again (brontes, for example).

[THoK-Zeus]

All Guilds told us that they used 5 healers for NiM Progression in excactly this thread. You yourself said that your guild used 5 healers for NiM Progression and still you say i lie when i say excactly the same .

 

As you don't provide actual topic to the other 3 stuff i guess we can call the actual discussion about tank dps closed.

Edited March 4, 2014 by THoK-Zeus

[morfius]

I don't understand why people think that it would be a good idea to swap Harpoon and Storm. That would solve NOTHING.

 

Will make it more convenient for those that mostly play tanks when need to play as DPS.

Not count as nothing as I see.

[Leafy_Bug]

Oh, if you open with potency breach > project, then you'll pull. I can get 15k in 2 seconds, but not 20 without burning potency early. I assumed you opened with double CS.

 

Welcome to my world where he does that in every raid but i ain't mad . Raiding with Evolixe

 

Irisa : 'we pull in 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 (activates force pull, project)

Evolixe : 'i have aggro!!!!'

Irisa :' I know, 50DKP MINUS for not knowing ***** to do '

Edited March 3, 2014 by Leafy_Bug

[Vaidinah]

All Guilds told us that they used 5 healers for NiM Progression in excactly this thread. You yourself said that your guild used 5 healers for NiM Progression and still you say i lie when i say excactly the same .

 

As you don't provide actual topic to the other 3 stuff i guess we can call the actual discussion about tank dps closed.

 

Nope, there were 2 different progressions so I'll make this as simple as I can for you. One was for NiM TFB and one was for NiM SnV. In NiM TFB, none of the 16 man progression guilds mentioned they used 5 and especially not 6 healers. In NiM SnV, most of 16 man guilds used 5 healers for at least one phase in only one fight. Now, let's do some math for you. In NiM TFB, 16 man progression guilds used 5 healers for 0/5 fights. In NiM SnV, these same guilds used 5 healers for possibly 1/7 fights. Even in that one fight and at least in my guild, the person swapped back to a DPS spec part-way through the fight. Thus, they do not count as a healer.

 

You claimed most 16 man progression teams used 5-6 healers. None of the guilds have stated they used 6 so that's completely wrong for both NiM TFB and SnV. When it comes to 5 healers, no one did that either for NiM TFB progression. Thus, you are completely wrong again. For NiM SnV progression, you are still wrong because having a DPS use their utility to heal initially until they go back to DPSing does not magically make them a healer. Thus, you are wrong for another time.

 

As for the tank DPS stuff, no one has showed anymore tank parses for Shadow/Sins or Vanguard/PT in full tank gear/items so there is nothing to say until people provide some evidence. Based on what I've seen with my Vanguard who is still missing 1 implant and has a 72 mainhand, I could see a Vanguard possibly doing more than 1500 on Nefra with full tank gear. Thus, it's possible that Jugg tank DPS is still low due to the developers counting potential damage from Saber Reflect.

Edited March 4, 2014 by Vaidinah

[THoK-Zeus]

Seeing that Bioware slowly starts to ban posts with personal attacks, i guess i don't need to answer that my statement: most 16 man guilds (if we can call 3 guilds most guilds but nevermind) used 5-6 healers for previous NiM Progression is still completely true.

 

 

About the actual thread:

I don't think it's needed to give powertechs another defensive cooldown unless they really buff enraged defense that much for juggernauts (then assassins will need something aswell tough).

 

In current content, the overall tank balance in pve is very good.

 

The only thing i mainly see, is that dps threat is getting significantly higher with each new tier (compared to tank threat).

One of the suggestions was to tie the threat of high threat tank abilities (like Force Pull) to mainhand damage, so that tanks don't lose more and more threat with each new tier of gear.

Edited March 4, 2014 by THoK-Zeus

[OneShotXV]

Seeing that Bioware slowly starts to ban posts with personal attacks, i guess i don't need to answer that my statement: most 16 man guilds (if we can call 3 guilds most guilds but nevermind) used 5-6 healers for previous NiM Progression is still completely true.

 

You are right, that statement is completely true. It is also intentionally highly misleading. Saying "most 16 man guilds used 5-6 healers for progression" implies two things, neither of which are true:

 

1) There exists 16 man guilds who used 6 healers to progress on nightmare fights.

2) Most 16 man guilds never used less than 5 healers to progress on any fight.

 

True you didn't explicitly say those things so you are "right" on a technicality, but the implication is very clear and everyone knows it. Your statement is correct, but so is saying that 8 man guilds used 2-4 healers for progression. A more accurate statement would be some 16 man guilds used 5 healers on some progression fights, mostly those whose outgoing damage was badly scaled so the encounter demanded it. Further i fail to see why that is even a bad thing. If it turns out tyrans has absurd damage and no enrage timer in Nightmare DP, will you still 2 heal it on 8 man out of some kind of sense of pride in sticking to a "traditional" group composition? It doesn't make any sense.

 

 

Anyway, to the real topic, since I have literally no idea how this thread got turned into a debate on how many healers 16 man guilds use ill only speak to sniper/slinger since that's the class I know best. I'm not sure its technically a "balance" problem but it seems weird to me that out of the three "pure" trees (excluding hybrid since Bioware doesnt like hybrids and will not balance for them most likely), two of them require melee range of the boss to actually achieve maximum damage. I feel that roll damage really should not be part of the core rotation in any sniper spec, although as it is lethality is weakened by not using it and engineering is obviously completely dependent on it.

 

Further, in lethality, weakening blast's ability to be consumed by the DoTs and Culls of other agents is problematic, as it makes lethality really only playable in a situation with no other agents in the group, or it will under-perform, leaving hybrid as the real single target option in fights without heavy target swapping. I think the ability itself could use some re-tooling, or being replaced by another ability to make the spec more appealing.

[THoK-Zeus]

You are right, that statement is completely true. It is also intentionally highly misleading. Saying "most 16 man guilds used 5-6 healers for progression" implies two things, neither of which are true:

 

1) There exists 16 man guilds who used 6 healers to progress on nightmare fights.

2) Most 16 man guilds never used less than 5 healers to progress on any fight.

 

True you didn't explicitly say those things so you are "right" on a technicality, but the implication is very clear and everyone knows it. Your statement is correct, but so is saying that 8 man guilds used 2-4 healers for progression. A more accurate statement would be some 16 man guilds used 5 healers on some progression fights, mostly those whose outgoing damage was badly scaled so the encounter demanded it. Further i fail to see why that is even a bad thing. If it turns out tyrans has absurd damage and no enrage timer in Nightmare DP, will you still 2 heal it on 8 man out of some kind of sense of pride in sticking to a "traditional" group composition? It doesn't make any sense.

My statement (and the old thread) was about the topic of enrage timers not being tight for 16 man NiM. If you remember or look the thread up it was about guilds getting away with using less then 10 dps on 16 man NiM fights (while 8 man guilds couldn't do that for a single boss).

 

And yes, i know that 16 man NiM Cartel Warlords was bugged and that they just simply doubled some of the damage which quadrubles the actual damage.

 

My point was, that guilds could get away with that by simplying taking more healers, because you didn't need 10 dps for the Encounter (obvious example: DG NiM. Same enrage timer on 16 and 8 man NiM, but just a 62% hp increase for 16 man NiM).

 

Simply 16 man guilds could get away with tighter healing/mechanic checks because they had a lighter dps check.

 

Anyway, to the real topic, since I have literally no idea how this thread got turned into a debate on how many healers 16 man guilds use ill only speak to sniper/slinger since that's the class I know best. I'm not sure its technically a "balance" problem but it seems weird to me that out of the three "pure" trees (excluding hybrid since Bioware doesnt like hybrids and will not balance for them most likely), two of them require melee range of the boss to actually achieve maximum damage. I feel that roll damage really should not be part of the core rotation in any sniper spec, although as it is lethality is weakened by not using it and engineering is obviously completely dependent on it.

 

Further, in lethality, weakening blast's ability to be consumed by the DoTs and Culls of other agents is problematic, as it makes lethality really only playable in a situation with no other agents in the group, or it will under-perform, leaving hybrid as the real single target option in fights without heavy target swapping. I think the ability itself could use some re-tooling, or being replaced by another ability to make the spec more appealing.

 

I wonder why you think it's problematic that weaking blast is consumed by another agent. It's only lowering your numbers on Parsec but the group's dps stays the same or? (unless it's the corrosive dart of an operative healer)

 

In my opinion the Engineering tree should be reworked completely (+ it needs 2 good top Tier abilities).

It has 18 good points in the bottom and rolling for pve. Corrosive Grenade is stronger then Plasma Probe (because of having 0 cooldown and being independant of Position).

 

Make it an aoe spec (with aoe damage similar to smash or ap) with lower sustained single target damage.

Give it better Orbital damage

Get rid of rolling

Rework and drastically improve Plasma Probe

Remove EMP Discharge and all related talents and give the sniper other talents that are also properly usable in pve.

 

Suggestions:

Scatter Bomb Talent is now related to Orbital Strike (When Orbital Strike hits Targets it now Drops Scatter Bombs hitting for X damage).

Edited March 4, 2014 by THoK-Zeus

[KeyboardNinja]

I wonder why you think it's problematic that weaking blast is consumed by another agent. It's only lowering your numbers on Parsec but the group's dps stays the same or? (unless it's the corrosive dart of an operative healer)

 

It's a problem because of Cull. Cull ticks are higher damage than DoT ticks, and thus the highest DPS for all Lethality-derived trees is to consume your Weakening Blast stacks with Cull (this is also why Lethality Ops drain themselves out of TA at certain points, which is generally a very bad idea). If a stack of WB is consumed by a normal DoT tick instead of a Cull tick, it is a net DPS loss for the group, regardless of who's DoT did the consuming.

[OneShotXV]

It's a problem because of Cull. Cull ticks are higher damage than DoT ticks, and thus the highest DPS for all Lethality-derived trees is to consume your Weakening Blast stacks with Cull (this is also why Lethality Ops drain themselves out of TA at certain points, which is generally a very bad idea). If a stack of WB is consumed by a normal DoT tick instead of a Cull tick, it is a net DPS loss for the group, regardless of who's DoT did the consuming.

 

Pretty much that. Also devouring microbes below 30% your DoTs are stronger than even a hybrid snipers. Plus thanks to The other part of the lethal takedown skill your cull does more damage than a hybrid's cull anyway. And even worse, a MM snipers Corrosive Dart consuming ticks without the lethal dose talent is a raid wide DPS loss anyway. Those are more minor than the timing of the cull, but all of that adds up to a raid wide dps loss of lethality if you have other agents in the group soaking WB, which sorely hurts the spec.