errant_knight Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 The rule of two has always struck me a lunacy. Admittedly, it's not lore I know in depth, but talk about putting all your eggs in one basket. What happens if sith and apprentice are killed at the same time, or if the master is killed when the apprentice is a mere acolyte. Yeah, having lots of sith running around stabbing each other in the back is problematic, but not as problematic as running the risk of there being no trained sith at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ufarax Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 The rule of two has always struck me a lunacy. Admittedly, it's not lore I know in depth, but talk about putting all your eggs in one basket. What happens if sith and apprentice are killed at the same time, or if the master is killed when the apprentice is a mere acolyte. Yeah, having lots of sith running around stabbing each other in the back is problematic, but not as problematic as running the risk of there being no trained sith at all. Did you read Darth Plagueis? Plagueis tried to mention Kamino, he tries to say the planet's name...but is prevented....stopped by the dark side. Bane destroyed the brotherhood, he caused their destruction without first finding an apprentice. The dark side provided an apprentice. The dark side is the best of all planners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
errant_knight Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 It might have appeared that way, but functionally that's just a lucky break. I'm not one who sees there being that much sentience in the force. Sure there will always be those who turn to the darkside, but without proper training and access to lore, knowledge is lost every time something like that happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NightEngine Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 But of course no Sith philosophy would or could ever accept the fact that they just can't win. At the heart of being Sith is trying to bend the Force to your will, but they delude themselves. If you try to control the Force it will replicate your actions and try to control you. Sidious was not brought down by a rag-tag bunch of Rebels, but by the Force itself. Uh... what? The Rebel Alliance was hardly rag-tag and I don't believe for a second the Force has an individual will. The only thing to support that is philosophical mumbo jumbo in the form of character's quotes and thoughts that are by no means reliable. The Force has never shown an ability or propensity to control anyone - others have done so via the Force, of course, but the Force has never acted on it's own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ufarax Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 Uh... what? The Rebel Alliance was hardly rag-tag and I don't believe for a second the Force has an individual will. The only thing to support that is philosophical mumbo jumbo in the form of character's quotes and thoughts that are by no means reliable. The Force has never shown an ability or propensity to control anyone - others have done so via the Force, of course, but the Force has never acted on it's own. Anakin was born of the force. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
errant_knight Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 I must admit that I consider that a fairly low point in SW writing, lol. Regardless, we're stuck with it. It doesn't mean the force is sentient, though. It just means that a combination of circumstances arose that allowed it to happen. And if the force was sentient, it would mean that it was pretty much screwing over both light and dark factions for some game of it's own. Me, I think the force is just a part if the universe, like electricity. The only difference is it can influence purely by its presence and that not everyone can make use of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kylekarma Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 I despise the rule of two. I always wondered though...if there's that ONE sith who doesn't quite do what every other sith is, and moreso allows the force to flow through him as it wills rather than bending it to his will (I mean...not every sith feeds off hate and anger, the fact that in this era force sensitive people are forced into it...) Would they be exempt from such a thing? What if they didn't take an apprenctice? etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jrr_hypernova Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 Anakin was born of the force. if by force you mean darth plagusis sith alcamy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ufarax Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 The creation of Anakin was a response. "For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction". The only mystery to Anakin is what part of the force created him. I believe it was the dark side. In my opinion the dark side craves conflict and chaos, not galactic domination. The rule of two spawned a Galactic civil war. That war led to the destruction of the Jedi order, and transformation of the old republic to a sith empire. Anakin destroyed Palpatine (for a time) therefore breaking the empire. With the old republic dead and the empire in ruin...conflict and chaos reign supreme. As the rebels try to rebuild the republic and the Jedi order, the dark side will put obstacles in their path. The dark side has won. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jrr_hypernova Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 The creation of Anakin was a response. "For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction". The only mystery to Anakin is what part of the force created him. I believe it was the dark side. In my opinion the dark side craves conflict and chaos, not galactic domination. The rule of two spawned a Galactic civil war. That war led to the destruction of the Jedi order, and transformation of the old republic to a sith empire. Anakin destroyed Palpatine (for a time) therefore breaking the empire. With the old republic dead and the empire in ruin...conflict and chaos reign supreme. As the rebels try to rebuild the republic and the Jedi order, the dark side will put obstacles in their path. The dark side has won. yes because darth plagus used his abilltiy to manipulate the force into makeing life not because the force is sentient. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Callaron Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 Spend over 1000 years infiltrating the highest levels of Galactic Society through a convoluted master plan to form an Empire that will fall in less then a single human lifetime, and then condemn the first Sith Lord to throw out the Rule of Two as a heretic, even though it had clearly failed. This is why I like Darth Marr, he's essentially the Anti Bane. So was Malgus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
errant_knight Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 So was Malgus. Had it been possible, My warrior would have joined Malgus. I regret his death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaedusz Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 (edited) The simple truth is this.We would never know if the Rule of Two is ultimately a successful order because Plagueis and Sidious didn't follow it. They created as Bane call it ''a copy of a copy'' and deluded the Rule of Two through their own prism and ultimately it wasn't the same order anymore.A fundamental law in the Rule of Two is that the continuation of the order and the Sith is more important than the individual and you must accept that you are very likely to die one day in some way or another.Plagueis and Sidious would have none of that. Who knows maybe a pure version of Bane's order is actually the best sith order possible and if it stayed true to it's dogmas it would have been successful and the Empire wouldn't have failed,-at least not that fast and not that pathetically. * * * Bane's sith order is basically a secretive diabolic religious cult. Marr is in a compeltely different situation and context, and i don't think it's very appropriate for them to be compared on this occasion. Edited July 13, 2014 by Kaedusz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
errant_knight Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 The simple truth is this.We would never know if the Rule of Two is ultimately a successful order because Plagueis and Sidious didn't follow it. They created as Bane call it ''a copy of a copy'' and deluded the Rule of Two through their own prism and ultimately it wasn't the same order anymore.A fundamental law in the Rule of Two is that the continuation of the order and the Sith is more important than the individual and you must accept that you are very likely to die one day in some way or another.Plagueis and Sidious would have none of that. Who knows maybe a pure version of Bane's order is actually the best sith order possible and if it stayed true to it's dogmas it would have been successful and the Empire wouldn't have failed,-at least not that fast and not that pathetically. * * * Bane's sith order is basically a secretive diabolic religious cult. Marr is in a compeltely different situation and context, and i don't think it's very appropriate for them to be compared on this occasion. Bane's rule makes more sense to me when put like this, but it also seems less possible. Like, entirely. The sith are all about the individual. are they not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaedusz Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 (edited) The sith are all about the individual. are they not? They are more about the Dark Side,especially Bane's Sith. Being about the individual is just one of the ''ingredients'' of the unlucking the Dark Side potential ''recipe'' in yourself.That's how the Dark Side works. Bane's Sith are not just guys who use the Force to achieve goals.They trully are devoted to the Dark Side of the Force in a way you can you can make a comparison to real life religious piety. This ofc doesn't mean that there are no concepts in Bane's teachings that glorify the individual,But not at the expense of the safety of the Sith Order. Edited July 14, 2014 by Kaedusz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DougTbx Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 The Rule of Two was broken from the very start and by it's very creator. Bane didn't intend to be replaced by his apprentice, he wanted to use essence transfer to take over Zannah's body to replace his own failing one. Nor was he the only Sith of his line to try to get around the whole being over thrown by a stronger apprentice. Sidious was the epitome of of "Nope I'm the end all of Sith, never going to allow anyone to even become a threat to my power." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanFM Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 The Rule of Two was broken from the very start and by it's very creator. Bane didn't intend to be replaced by his apprentice, he wanted to use essence transfer to take over Zannah's body to replace his own failing one. Nor was he the only Sith of his line to try to get around the whole being over thrown by a stronger apprentice. Sidious was the epitome of of "Nope I'm the end all of Sith, never going to allow anyone to even become a threat to my power." I disagree. If Bane had succeeded with his essence transfer into Zannah's body he would have proven that he was the stronger Sith and he should be the one to carry on. The fact that the essence transfer was unsuccessful proves that Zannah was in fact stronger so she carried on the Sith line. It would have been silly of Bane to just let Zannah take over because his body was failing. That would be completely against the point. As I said if the essence transfer worked the stronger Sith (Bane) would have survived. Just turns out the stronger Sith was Zannah. That's my understanding of it anyway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
errant_knight Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 That makes sense. What doesn't make sense to me is putting all your eggs in one...er, two, baskets like this. It would be far too easy to end up with no one to identify or train the next generation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DougTbx Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 The point I think that was missed by some with my previous post was that no Sith is going to knowingly train an apprentice to become stronger then they are because they don't intend to be surpassed. Sidious again being the ultimate example of this, his first apprentice Maul, trained solely to be an assassin, Vader and to a greater extent his other DS disciples all only trained to a certain point, enough to be useful but never a real threat to their Master. Vader was convinced he needed Luke on his side to defeat the Emperor as he knew he couldn't beat him one on one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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