Is SWTOR the pariah of MMOs?

[Arkerus]

This one has always made me wonder... I remember the early days of SWG. The SWG release made SWTOR's release look like perfection. Massive bugs, whole parts of the game missing, constant server crashes, etc. Even when it equalized the game was incomplete. Never mind end game, whole sections of the whole game were missing from SWG. It took them nearly a year to put space into a star wars game. When they did complete things (the Jedi holocron grind that defined AFK and macro grinding to the rest of the industry, the CU, NGE, etc) they ended up doing the wrong thing almost by rote.

 

Don't get me wrong, lots of people loved the game, and it had its charm, but people need to compare SWTOR with what it is, a MMO entering its third year. They are inevitably comparing it against WOW which is in its what 10th year now?

 

The examples people point to and say "this is a failure since every MMO should have X" are forgetting how things are in MMOs. It took WOW 7 years before it added cross realm grouping.

 

Now, does this game have its issues, hells yes... but people need to stop comparing it with rose tinted glasses pointed at the other games.

 

Now now, I heard SWG was 1000 years beyond its time. In fact SWG created the entire concept of the MMO. Its just that none of the plebeians could understand it, so it never got popular.

Edited February 19, 2014 by Arkerus

[jedip_enguin]

Now now, I heard SWG was 1000 years beyond its time. In fact SWG created the entire concept of the MMO its just that none of the plebeians could understand it, so it never got popular.

 

Somebody get some cold water for this burn.

[mecher]

Somebody get some cold water for this burn.

 

I fail to see the burn, well actually the only burn I see is the selfburn done by Arkerus.

Edited February 19, 2014 by mecher

[Rasen]

now now, i heard swg was 1000 years beyond its time. In fact swg created the entire concept of the mmo its just that none of the plebeians could understand it, so it never got popular.

 

buuuuuurrrrrrrrnnnnnnnnnnnnnn!!!!!!!!

[Elfindreams]

I agree with everything else you said but this. Sure, it took WoW a few years to get cross realm grouping, but that is from a 2004 release.

 

There gets to a point where "this is an MMO, it takes time" is no longer an excuse. MMOs have been out long enough that certain features have just become the norm. What has taken one MMO 6 years to implement is expected to be common features in any subsequent games. I'm certain that after SWTOR, companies well be looking at making sure any solo experience has a well presented story to go along with it. It will be hard for gamers to accept anything else other than a good story and decent story after SWTOR (and possibly TSW).

 

If a dev is hellbent on playing it safe by not reinventing the wheel, they need to be darn sure that the wheel they are copying has the same amount of lug nuts.

 

Do you have any conceptualization of the level of complexity that a cross-shard system requires? The database interdependence, replication and inevitable race conditions alone are enough to give a database programmer nightmares. That isn't even mentioning the protocol/network/server design necessary to make it usable.

 

People see a feature in an MMO and assume, well that must have been easy to code. It can take years just to work out the kinks in a system like WOW implemented. Heck, WOW hasn't finished working out the kinks in the system it implemented. And it isn't like they share code.... so the SWTOR folks would have to do it all again from scratch.

 

Remember that SWTOR was announced 2008, which means it had probably already been being coded for around a year or so before that. Cross-Realm grouping entered into WOW (and the rest of the world's nomenclature) in 2011. By that time the server model and database model were locked in because to change them would be to change the entire game and set the release back several years.

 

It isn't about re-inventing the wheel, what you are talking about is scrapping and redesigning the whole car after you are already close to production.

Edited February 19, 2014 by Elfindreams

[mattgyver]

Somebody get some cold water for this burn.

 

lol well the discussion has gone out the window here I see. If SWTOR was able to have even one planet that was setup like one of the SWG worlds but staged the story in SWTOR fashion it would be something that I think a lot of players would have fun with. Putting aside the sandbox design politics, I don't see how someone wouldn't at least enjoy it for the novelty.

[silentsurfer]

Do you have any conceptualization of the level of complexity that a cross-shard system requires? The database interdependence, replication and inevitable race conditions alone are enough to give a database programmer nightmares. That isn't even mentioning the protocol/network/server design necessary to make it usable.

 

People see a feature in an MMO and assume, well that must have been easy to code. It can take years just to work out the kinks in a system like WOW implemented. Heck, WOW hasn't finished working out the kinks in the system it implemented. And it isn't like they share code.... so the SWTOR folks would have to do it all again from scratch.

 

Remember that SWTOR was announced 2008, which means it had probably already been being coded for around a year or so before that. Cross-Realm grouping entered into WOW (and the rest of the world's nomenclature) in 2011. By that time the server model and database model were locked in because to change them would be to change the entire game and set the release back several years.

 

It isn't about re-inventing the wheel, what you are talking about is scrapping and redesigning the whole car after you are already close to production.

 

Look at that certain mining/crafting game. It was developed by an Indie company, created rather recently, and is impossible to argue that it's not hugely successful. Reason being, they brought innovation to the table. If your not thinking ahead of the curve in technology, your getting left behind.

[Elfindreams]

Look at that certain mining/crafting game. It was developed by an Indie company, created rather recently, and is impossible to argue that it's not hugely successful. Reason being, they brought innovation to the table. If your not thinking ahead of the curve in technology, your getting left behind.

 

That doesn't change the simple fact that you have a given number of manhours that you can put into development based on staffing level and other factors. The feature you are talking about would have added years of development time they didn't have. Now an MMO created and started coding after the invention of cross-realm not considering it in its initial database design, that would be a travesty... but this had already been being coded and designed for 4 years before anyone else did cross-realm.... to add it at that time would have been a monumental mistake.

 

And SWTOR has innovated (name one other fully voiced, story driven MMO), they just didn't predict this particular feature coming out of nowhere. That doesn't make it a bad game in any sense of the word.

Edited February 19, 2014 by Elfindreams

[agamemnon-]

Do you have any conceptualization of the level of complexity that a cross-shard system requires? The database interdependence, replication and inevitable race conditions alone are enough to give a database programmer nightmares. That isn't even mentioning the protocol/network/server design necessary to make it usable.

 

People see a feature in an MMO and assume, well that must have been easy to code. It can take years just to work out the kinks in a system like WOW implemented. Heck, WOW hasn't finished working out the kinks in the system it implemented. And it isn't like they share code.... so the SWTOR folks would have to do it all again from scratch.

 

Remember that SWTOR was announced 2008, which means it had probably already been being coded for around a year or so before that. Cross-Realm grouping entered into WOW (and the rest of the world's nomenclature) in 2011. By that time the server model and database model were locked in because to change them would be to change the entire game and set the release back several years.

 

It isn't about re-inventing the wheel, what you are talking about is scrapping and redesigning the whole car after you are already close to production.

 

I probably should have been more specific; I wasn't commenting completely on cross server stuff, just features in general.

 

But to cite your example, still not an excuse. Why? Nothing game related is really hidden thanks to the internet. What players want and are clamoring for is open for all to see, including devs. If people have been wanting feature X for years, then maybe if a dev is making a competing game they should put serious thought into implementing feature X.

 

It boils down to Bioware not wanting to be innovative. As I said before, the played it safe. Heck maybe they didn't need to be innovative too much, but if you are shooting for Wow, at least make sure you are up to par (nothing to do with Cross-server stuff, just features in general).

 

If you are going to copy the B-29, make sure you at least get a Tu-4 out of the deal, and not a gimped Cessna in the process.

[mecher]

But to cite your example, still not an excuse. Why? Nothing game related is really hidden thanks to the internet. What players want and are clamoring for is open for all to see, including devs. If people have been wanting feature X for years, then maybe if a dev is making a competing game they should put serious thought into implementing feature X.

 

 

The only people who want cross-server queues are idiots who don't realize it will solve nothing, and in fact, just make the problem worst.

[agamemnon-]

And SWTOR has innovated (name one other fully voiced, story driven MMO).

 

While that is true, not many people were willing to pay $15 a month or an experience that they could get while playing KOTOR I or II. Not to mention the free mods that add stuff to those games.

 

Fluff like voice overs only gets you but so far. At some point, you need to have a game in there somewhere with what is considered to be industry standard features.

[Fixiooo]

The only people who want cross-server queues are idiots who don't realize it will solve nothing, and in fact, just make the problem worst.

 

Wait, I... Did I really just read this?

[agamemnon-]

The only people who want cross-server queues are idiots who don't realize it will solve nothing, and in fact, just make the problem worst.

 

While I don't care about cross server ques, we won't know the impact for certain until it is tried first.

[Elfindreams]

While that is true, not many people were willing to pay $15 a month or an experience that they could get while playing KOTOR I or II. Not to mention the free mods that add stuff to those games.

 

Fluff like voice overs only gets you but so far. At some point, you need to have a game in there somewhere with what is considered to be industry standard features.

 

Cross-Realm isn't "industry standard"... it is starting to get there but at the release time of SWTOR only one other game had it and had only had it for a year. That isn't "industry standard", that is expecting the game designers to have a staff of psychics to try and gleen what features are going to be emergent in four+ years.

[agamemnon-]

Cross-Realm isn't "industry standard"... it is starting to get there but at the release time of SWTOR only one other game had it and had only had it for a year. That isn't "industry standard", that is expecting the game designers to have a staff of psychics to try and gleen what features are going to be emergent in four+ years.

 

Again, wasn't talking about cross-server stuff.

[Elfindreams]

Again, wasn't talking about cross-server stuff.

 

Yes but we were. The line you quoted was specifically referencing cross-realm. You even referenced "But to cite your example, still not an excuse." where my example was cross-realm.

Edited February 19, 2014 by Elfindreams

[agamemnon-]

Yes but we were. The line you quoted was specifically referencing cross-realm.

 

"You" isn't "We." And I stated in a reply that I wasn't specifically addressing cross-faction stuff, just the whole "Well it took WoW X number of years to implement Y."

 

But to address the cross-faction stuff, it wasn't exactly an NSA secret that something like that was wanted by the playerbase and Blizzard would make an attempt at it. Of course, this boils down to getting cheap and choosing an engine that severely limits options for future expansion.

 

Seriously, Star Trek Online's crappy engine can handle guild banks and guild space stations. You'd figure that Bioware would at least have chosen an engine that can handle basic guild options.

[silentsurfer]

I probably should have been more specific; I wasn't commenting completely on cross server stuff, just features in general.

 

But to cite your example, still not an excuse. Why? Nothing game related is really hidden thanks to the internet. What players want and are clamoring for is open for all to see, including devs. If people have been wanting feature X for years, then maybe if a dev is making a competing game they should put serious thought into implementing feature X.

 

It boils down to Bioware not wanting to be innovative. As I said before, the played it safe. Heck maybe they didn't need to be innovative too much, but if you are shooting for Wow, at least make sure you are up to par (nothing to do with Cross-server stuff, just features in general).

 

If you are going to copy the B-29, make sure you at least get a Tu-4 out of the deal, and not a gimped Cessna in the process.

 

This person gets it.

[silentsurfer]

"You" isn't "We." And I stated in a reply that I wasn't specifically addressing cross-faction stuff, just the whole "Well it took WoW X number of years to implement Y."

 

But to address the cross-faction stuff, it wasn't exactly an NSA secret that something like that was wanted by the playerbase and Blizzard would make an attempt at it. Of course, this boils down to getting cheap and choosing an engine that severely limits options for future expansion.

 

Seriously, Star Trek Online's crappy engine can handle guild banks and guild space stations. You'd figure that Bioware would at least have chosen an engine that can handle basic guild options.

 

Not to mention that Wow was created without cross realm ability. So at some point they bit the bullet and put the time into creating a feature the play-base at that time wanted. Could they have thought forward enough to create a code base that allowed for adding this without a huge amount of rework? Possibly, but not likely.

[mecher]

Not to mention that Wow was created without cross realm ability. So at some point they bit the bullet and put the time into creating a feature the play-base at that time wanted. Could they have thought forward enough to create a code base that allowed for adding this without a huge amount of rework? Possibly, but not likely.

 

Hur dur, I'll just ignore the fact that WoW makes a billion plus dollars a year from subs alone, hur dur.

[agamemnon-]

Hur dur, I'll just ignore the fact that WoW makes a billion plus dollars a year from subs alone, hur dur.

 

True, Blizzard has the capital to put people and resources on the task.

 

This just puts EA in an even worse light; perpetuating the notion that they care nothing for long term player satisfaction and only care for short term profits.

Edited February 19, 2014 by agamemnon-

[Elfindreams]

"You" isn't "We." And I stated in a reply that I wasn't specifically addressing cross-faction stuff, just the whole "Well it took WoW X number of years to implement Y."

 

But to address the cross-faction stuff, it wasn't exactly an NSA secret that something like that was wanted by the playerbase and Blizzard would make an attempt at it. Of course, this boils down to getting cheap and choosing an engine that severely limits options for future expansion.

 

Seriously, Star Trek Online's crappy engine can handle guild banks and guild space stations. You'd figure that Bioware would at least have chosen an engine that can handle basic guild options.

 

I assumed "we" were talking about it when you said "But to reference your example".... maybe that means something different than I assumed.

 

The choice of engine is far more complex than people make it... as an engine is basically what you make out of it. The engine isn't keeping them from implementing guild features. In fact on this point you are spot on. That that are not investing the development time to do the guild options now is surprising (although nothing I know of has said they aren't developing it even as we speak).

 

My point was that people assume that game X came out with feature Y after several years of development, it should take game Z not time to do it.

 

Even if they observed the "clamor" for cross-realm in the WOW forums under the normal self-contradicting noise in game forums four years before it was even implemented by WOW; even if they were able to determine that it would translate to a need in their game, it would have taken them more development time than they had.

 

Resources are finite. Comparing a game that has had 6-7 years of development with one that has had probably over twice that amount of time (announced in 2001, so probably a year of coding before that) is folly because most of that time is actually spent designing and coding. It isn't wasted time waiting for the playerbase to come up with an idea. With the amount of time they had they wouldn't have been able to implement some of the stuff that was "standard" in WOW. They had to make decisions on what features to focus on and which ones to consider adding later. All games do.

 

If they had tried to put everything in they would have had to delay at least two+ years... and name one franchise ever that has survived a delay of two years to their announced release date and not been a laughing stock for it.

Edited February 19, 2014 by Elfindreams

[silentsurfer]

Hur dur, I'll just ignore the fact that WoW makes a billion plus dollars a year from subs alone, hur dur.

 

How do you think they got all those subs though?

[silentsurfer]

I assumed "we" were talking about it when you said "But to reference your example".... maybe that means something different than I assumed.

 

The choice of engine is far more complex than people make it... as an engine is basically what you make out of it. The engine isn't keeping them from implementing guild features. In fact on this point you are spot on. That that are not investing the development time to do the guild options now is surprising (although nothing I know of has said they aren't developing it even as we speak).

 

My point was that people assume that game X came out with feature Y after several years of development, it should take game Z not time to do it.

 

Even if they observed the "clamor" for cross-realm in the WOW forums under the normal self-contradicting noise in game forums four years before it was even implemented by WOW; even if they were able to determine that it would translate to a need in their game, it would have taken them more development time than they had.

 

Resources are finite. Comparing a game that has had 6-7 years of development with one that has had probably over twice that amount of time (announced in 2001, so probably a year of coding before that) is folly because most of that time is actually spent designing and coding. It isn't wasted time waiting for the playerbase to come up with an idea. With the amount of time they had they wouldn't have been able to implement some of the stuff that was "standard" in WOW. They had to make decisions on what features to focus on and which ones to consider adding later. All games do.

 

If they had tried to put everything in they would have had to delay at least two+ years... and name one franchise ever that has survived a delay of two years to their announced release date and not been a laughing stock for it.

 

This is where innovation has to come in. What your offering has to have enough of it's own draw to players, and ability to hold players attention to retain customers. The market is vastly different from where it was when WOW came around.

 

Personally I think Bioware isn't playing into its innovations and marketing them as well as they could. For me, the voice acting is cool, but for an MMO not a retaining feature if you ask me.

 

But take something like Adaptive armor. Some might claim it's a cash grab. Whether you follow that line of thinking or not, it's hard not to admit that it's not a great innovative feature. It's without a doubt better than what WOW has to offer, and a true feature that gamers have wanted in MMOs for years. It breaks the mold from having to look like your wearing rags at level 1 compared to wearing the shiny gold suit of armor at level whatever. They need to bring more things like this to the table, and they quite possibly will.

[mecher]

How do you think they got all those subs though?

 

Oh god, you are more clueless then the people who actually play WoW.

 

1. It's Blizzard.

 

2. WoW is dumbed down as it can be. Dumb downed games appeal to the most people, hence why niche games remain niche.

 

3. After a while people have a hard time leaving once they invested so much time and money into it. Especially if they made friends in it.

 

I could go on but it would be wasted on you.