Barrel Roll is the most versatile Engine Ability

[Vid-szhite]

I know what you're all thinking. "Barrel Roll? Really?" I know, I know, but hear me out...

 

You already know it rockets you forward really, really fast. Did you know you can use it from a Gunship's max range, and when it finishes, you can be within Scout striking range? Did you know that it lets you move several times faster than a Scout can move with full engines and afterburners running? You can see where I'm going with this. You can use it to close the gap with Gunships safely, and you can use it to get to capture points before anyone else -- on my Gunship, I've used barrel roll spam to get there before the enemy Scouts. I've spammed it on my scout to snatch power ups from the enemy side in TDM before they even got there. It's crazy good.

 

Now the cherry on top: when you activate it, your engine power regenerates, rather than being spent. Its cost with upgrades is so low, and its cooldown so fast, that it actually allows you to reach mid on Domination maps without using a Scout's engine ability. My engine usage has gotten so efficient with it, I forget I even have booster recharge. With only the first and second upgrades, it becomes an ideal tool for shaking chasers, or even catching up with fast runners. You can outrun Scouts as a Gunship if they don't have Barrel Roll.

 

Naturally, its downside is that you can't steer away from large, hard, oncoming objects for 3 seconds. With practice, you can minimize self-destructs, but they still happen. Still, even with that downside, I still get it first thing on any ship that can use it. For shoot-and-scoot, there's no better boost ability.

[Armonddd]

It also means you get to choose between moving a large distance in a straight(ish) line or eating a torp, once you hear the lock sound. This means you're forced to abandon whatever node you were holding, or leave the protection of your team's drones, or etc, if you don't want to start smoking.

 

Retro thrusters, while lacking the mobility of barrel roll, will all but guarantee a missile lock, give you another chance at shooting the enemy, and don't require you to abandon a node.

 

Barrel roll is very good, but it's not the be-all end-all of engine abilities.

[-Streven-]

Yes barrel roll is quite good. I use it for 3 of my five builds. The only engine ability I find useless is the nose dive. 90 vertical drop...still scratching my head on that one.

[DEATHICIDE]

Barrel roll is a great gap closer and facilitator of retreat, nothing is better for scouts going for the initial sat cap, but if you are like me and would rather something flashy to use as an attack, then all the other options take the lead.

 

Retros are awesome for missile locks, and confusing the less agile.

 

The turns are equally awesome when it comes to fighting multiple agile targets, keeping in mind that most can judge just where you are going to end up after a barrel roll or retros(which makes them great for railgun dodges).

The turns allow the more experienced cowboy pilots out there to swap targets very quickly, with the benefit of forcing target A to reposition themselves to re-engage WHILE you are lighting up target B, assuming you timed everything correctly.

 

 

My personal style doesn't involve the need for much retreat, or more gap closing than my engines can facilitate with the standard boost, so I no longer use barrel roll on any of my ships.

 

Try em' all before you buy the upgrades I'd say, some will find combat versatility>super boost.

Edited February 13, 2014 by DEATHICIDE

[Zoom_VI]

Barrel roll is BiS for running away.

 

nuff said.

[Armonddd]

Barrel roll is BiS for running away.

 

nuff said.

 

Running towards the target, or running away from the arrow.

[Kain_Turinbar]

Running towards the target, or running away from the arrow.

 

It IS a fantastic gap closer on gunships. I can time it now to where I land just at Concussion Missile range and they either:

 

1. Stand their ground and die

2. Run

3. Sometimes a combination of both

 

I hate when people cry about it saying all it does is empower ccowards. I think it has great offensive use.

Edited February 13, 2014 by Kain_Turinbar

[Nocher]

as the best "cowardly little basterd" on my server (quote not on this forum, just have had some funny tells), I can say barrel roll is my jam. It lets me run away, run towards, cap nodes quickly, and gamble with my life in tight spots (nothing like getting through a hole the size of your ship with a barrel roll) Edited February 13, 2014 by Nocher

[Vid-szhite]

It also means you get to choose between moving a large distance in a straight(ish) line or eating a torp, once you hear the lock sound. This means you're forced to abandon whatever node you were holding, or leave the protection of your team's drones, or etc, if you don't want to start smoking.

 

Retro thrusters, while lacking the mobility of barrel roll, will all but guarantee a missile lock, give you another chance at shooting the enemy, and don't require you to abandon a node.

 

Barrel roll is very good, but it's not the be-all end-all of engine abilities.

 

This IS true. Distortion Field can be used to break locks too, as can EMP Burst, although those aren't solutions everyone has access to.

[Itkovian]

It also means you get to choose between moving a large distance in a straight(ish) line or eating a torp, once you hear the lock sound. This means you're forced to abandon whatever node you were holding, or leave the protection of your team's drones, or etc, if you don't want to start smoking.

 

Retro thrusters, while lacking the mobility of barrel roll, will all but guarantee a missile lock, give you another chance at shooting the enemy, and don't require you to abandon a node.

 

Barrel roll is very good, but it's not the be-all end-all of engine abilities.

 

Agreed, and to be honest it also makes you a perfect target for missiles once your roll is done, unlike retro thrusters or koiogran turn.

 

It's got great utility, but its effects cut both ways.

[HoloGrinder]

as the best "cowardly little basterd" on my server (quote not on this forum, just have had some funny tells), I can say barrel roll is my jam. It lets me run away, run towards, cap nodes quickly, and gamble with my life in tight spots (nothing like getting through a hole the size of your ship with a barrel roll)

 

You play like me That said all my ships have barrel role. It is easy on the brain if you hit the button not thinking about what ship you are in and it does the same thing every time. That said barrel role is the fastest you can move toward or away from something. It is awesome for getting to the node first. it is a great charge if you have to go head on with a GS. It has a +10% speed increase in the last tier so even faster right? If mobility is your thing weather offensively or defensively it is your signature move. It is a true tool of the trade for a super fast ninja capping light scout... I would have to say the second best tool of the trade is Rocket pods. Don't knock em till you try em. It is a life saver in a SF and a gun ship too. I don't think Bombers get it but hell they got a drone or a mine for that don't they?

[Armonddd]

barrel role

 

This bugs me every time, could you fix it?

[Verain]

I think that Barrel Roll could have a slightly longer cooldown. But, ultimately, I think the real thing is that the other engine abilities are not that great, and there's not enough distinction between the missile lock breaking ones besides "a crappy version of barrel roll". If nothing else, some of them should have different cooldowns, or multiple cooldown charges, to make that distinction.

 

 

 

It's rare to see Snap Turn and Koigran Turn. These abilities are great for breaking locks in enclosed spaces, but they offer basically nothing else. I think that the passive "choices" on these abilities could become more interesting than just being clones of each other and the barrel roll (the 10% move/turn).

 

Power Dive seems to be pretty bad. I think the only way to improve it would be to actually reduce the cooldown, or make the ability actually grant you engine pool when used instead of subtract it.

 

Retro Thrusters is the only real competitor for most ships to Barrel Roll. The advantage of the retros is that you can get a cool missile lock on someone.

 

 

 

When we look at gunship and bomber engine components, most need more- but at least some have some interesting stuffs.

 

Rotational Thrusters are highly offensive. The downside is that they don't break missiles, and this is a LARGE downside. They could passively reduce missile damage taken by 30%, or something, or have a very short cooldown (could interact poorly with final tier).

 

Interdiction drive never needed the nerf it got. The whole point of the nerf is that a gunship or bomber would mass aoe snare a ton of ships. This and this alone is what an interdiction drive should do. This somewhat silly component could also reduce missile damage taken passively by some percent, but should also have some other snare-effect- such as, a greater turning penalty than 10%, or an engine rate of return nerf for several seconds. Alternatively, redesign this component if an interdiction effect is considered harmful to the game.

 

Weapon Power converter is one of the craziest ones ever. I don't even know what suggestions to make. A teaspood of cat urine and unicorn farts? What do the insane people who pick this component want? A promise of three winged angels in the next life?

 

Shield Power Converter seems like it should do more for shields on button press. Or maybe just buff the final tier.

 

 

 

Hyperspace Beacon is a good example of an engine component that doesn't break missile locks that people will still choose.

Edited February 13, 2014 by Verain

[Verain]

This bugs me every time, could you fix it?

 

Corect speling shud bee soled en teh kartel markret.

Edited February 13, 2014 by Verain

[Luneward]

Corect speling shud bee soled en teh kartel markret.

 

Know, eye think this is moor appropriate. Ewe should knot trigger the spell Czech too get the write effect.

 

*flees before Armondd kills him*

Edited February 13, 2014 by Luneward

[Armonddd]

Know, eye think this is moor appropriate. Ewe should knot trigger the spell Czech too get the write effect.

 

*flees before Armondd kills him*

 

Next TDM, don't expect any alone time.

[magecutter]

Next TDM, don't expect any alone time.

 

laughed hard at that Armanddd... thx

 

while I do not disagree with barrel rolls benefits as a great gap closer, kologran turn or snap turn allows you to keep the pressure on a target much more effectively.

 

Kologran turns draw back (the way it throws the ship around until the last tier upgrade) can make reacquiring a target difficult (I hold the 'S' key, throttle back for a second or so to compensate).

 

Snap Turn is in some ways better as the speed boost and turn rate buff is there from the start (with no upgrades).

 

in a scout, when attacking turrets, nothing (imo) works better. even when a node is fairly well protected I can kill all 3 turrets and then start working on that GS or Bomber that's hiding under the node or even start the cap for our side.

 

and as a GS hunter the KT or ST allows me to keep the pressure on them (if their trying to dodge or engage me their not firing missiles at anyone else and not defending that node).

 

it all depends on one's personal play style of course but I think the way the 'rock/paper/scissors' balance is working really allows for and encourages different tactics and play styles which is a good thing.

 

is barrel roll useful? of course. but don't discount a quick boost past your target and then a nice KT or ST to get in behind that GS or bomber and make sure they have very little "alone time".

[Phatbeard]

It also means you get to choose between moving a large distance in a straight(ish) line or eating a torp, once you hear the lock sound. This means you're forced to abandon whatever node you were holding, or leave the protection of your team's drones, or etc, if you don't want to start smoking.

 

Retro thrusters, while lacking the mobility of barrel roll, will all but guarantee a missile lock, give you another chance at shooting the enemy, and don't require you to abandon a node.

 

Barrel roll is very good, but it's not the be-all end-all of engine abilities.

 

Retro thrusters are too easily countered by an experienced pilot. As soon as he sees them fire he'll pull a vertical 180 while decelerating, burst backwards until he's cleared your field of vision, then decelerate and pull another vertical 180, dropping right in behind you. If he's coming at you perpendicular you're in an even worse situation. He'll immediately burst behind you towards your anticipated location, decelerate and bank right in behind you. Retro thrusters also rob you of the ability to immediately respond to the other team surging to cap a sat or close ground with a gunship in deathmatch in the blink of an eye.

[Armonddd]

Retro thrusters are too easily countered by an experienced pilot.

 

You can boost after barrel roll (or swap targets) as easily as you can maneuver around retro. You can also not be predictable when you come out of it. You can also distortion field. Retros don't automatically put you in a disadvantageous position; you just have to fight to not give the other guy the advantage, if he knows to go for it.

 

Of course, all of that applies to TDM, not domination. Around a satellite, retro is king because it lets you shoot backwards when other people are boosting forwards. And, of course, the advantage of any head to head generally goes to the pilot with retro.

 

Retro thrusters also rob you of the ability to immediately respond to the other team surging to cap a sat or close ground with a gunship in deathmatch in the blink of an eye.

 

Absolutely. It's a tradeoff. I generally choose between barrel roll and boost recharger, or retro and blaster overcharge.

[Mallorik]

Barrel roll is for run and gun, kioga? turn is for dogfighting. (most of the other moves are for dogfighting too) Edited February 14, 2014 by Mallorik

[Kain_Turinbar]

You can boost after barrel roll (or swap targets) as easily as you can maneuver around retro. You can also not be predictable when you come out of it. You can also distortion field. Retros don't automatically put you in a disadvantageous position; you just have to fight to not give the other guy the advantage, if he knows to go for it.

 

Of course, all of that applies to TDM, not domination. Around a satellite, retro is king because it lets you shoot backwards when other people are boosting forwards. And, of course, the advantage of any head to head generally goes to the pilot with retro.

 

 

 

Absolutely. It's a tradeoff. I generally choose between barrel roll and boost recharger, or retro and blaster overcharge.

 

I could be wrong but I believe you were the one that questioned the use of Blaster Overcharge in another thread about scouts touting Boost Recharger over it.

 

If that was you is there anything specific that led you to start considering Blaster Overcharge?

 

I know the reason I use it is for the insane burst damage because I don't really ever find myself starved for engine enough to consider losing all that burst in exchange for more legs.

[HoloGrinder]

I have K-turn and Barrel role maxed on my SF. I have retro thrusters and barrel role maxed on my sting. Barrel role maxed on everything else. I don't have any real time using snap turn. I like K-turn and retro thrusters to a limited degree for being on a sat or in a dog fight but they get trumped in my opinion by barrel role as it gets me to the satellite or in dog fight much faster. It allows me to be rapid response for team support. It allows me to egress a bad situation pronto. I get to be in the fight or on the satellite with barrel role while the other abilities would still have me in transit to the action. Maybe most importantly when taking on 3 or 4 opponents in a dog fight it allows me to jump away and have a short time out to repair shields before I charge back into the fray. They are all good and they all seem equal but for what I do and my personal taste barrel role is superior. For me most missile locks come from odd angles while some one is running in circles trying to be "evasive". When I am right behind some one I use my guns so when they use retro thrusters on me they end up not getting any better idea where I am most of the time and my favorite thing to do right after they break my lock with retro thrusters is lock them up again and fire as they almost always come right back into my reticle at the end of the move.

 

In nature a gazelle would give his left antler to have K-turn, Snap turn, or retro thrusters as they are great evasive moves. The cheetah would take barrel role every time. All 4 can be used for evasion only one can enhance a chase. So you must answer one question to your self truthfully. Are you predator or pray?

 

If always being in the right place at the right time is not for you, if being the fastest thing in space is not your cup of tea, If you don't like a move that lets you take GS's head on as they miss there railgun shot at you, If being hard to kill in a dog fight is not your thing, and if being able to EMP a satellite full of drones before they get a shot off is not your idea of a good time then pick a different move. No doubt barrel role is for me.

[Verain]

I think the prey animals will take barrel roll too man. It gets you AWAY. Or it gets you INTO the fight. AND it evades. Best maneuver!

 

 

Oh, it's also easiest to use.

 

 

 

Only retro thrusters offers anything extra at all.

[RiVaN_]

It also means you get to choose between moving a large distance in a straight(ish) line or eating a torp, once you hear the lock sound. This means you're forced to abandon whatever node you were holding, or leave the protection of your team's drones, or etc, if you don't want to start smoking.

 

Retro thrusters, while lacking the mobility of barrel roll, will all but guarantee a missile lock, give you another chance at shooting the enemy, and don't require you to abandon a node.

 

Barrel roll is very good, but it's not the be-all end-all of engine abilities.

 

Retro thrusts are not available on all ships, Flashfires benefit most from a barrel roll.

[Armonddd]

I could be wrong but I believe you were the one that questioned the use of Blaster Overcharge in another thread about scouts touting Boost Recharger over it.

 

If that was you is there anything specific that led you to start considering Blaster Overcharge?

 

I know the reason I use it is for the insane burst damage because I don't really ever find myself starved for engine enough to consider losing all that burst in exchange for more legs.

 

I have said that, but I don't think it was super recently.

 

As time passed, I found myself with more and more requisition available. This let me do things like making an ocula and a sting with builds identical except for overcharge + barrel roll vs retro + booster recharge. In addition, playing around on other servers has given me opportunities to try various builds on both types of scouts. I don't know nearly everything, but I'll try to explain my thoughts on afterburners and mobility, and maybe some pilots more experienced than I (Nemarus, Highjinks, Scrab, any of a number of people I fly with and against on Pot5, and a few on Ebon Hawk that I don't think post here) can throw in their thoughts as well.

 

In general, I feel that mobility is so powerful, especially on an otherwise fragile ship like the scout, that it's almost universally necessary for scouts to equip an "I get there" button in one of their slots. That could be booster recharge, barrel roll, or engine power converter -- it doesn't really matter, as long as you can "get there" faster than the other guy. ("There" could be the satellite, the side of the satellite the other guy isn't watching, within weapon range of your target, or out of weapon range of the guy behind you, to name a few examples.)

 

It's important to clarify the benefits of available engine power before we get too deep into things. Having engine power means you can use the afterburner to move at +220% speed until you run out. Using the afterburner means getting to the satellite before the enemy captures it. It means the guy sniffing your thrusters suddenly isn't doing maximum damage with maximum accuracy. It means you're doing close-range accuracy and damage instead of long-range accuracy and damage. It means that gunship isn't out of range anymore. It means that ion shot hasn't taken you completely out of the fight just yet. It means that guy who thought he was getting away is still in your sights. It means those guys looking for you suddenly have empty sensors. Perhaps most importantly, it means those guys following you around the satellite have to hope you crash, because they're simply not going to catch you. By far, my most common uses of engine power are to shoot to the other side of a satellite and to chase someone who thought he'd be safer if he tried to break off our engagement. Between these two uses, I am constantly running on half a tank of gas or less.

 

Barrel roll is the gold standard the majority of forumites, if not players in general, compare their options to. This thing makes me more mobile? Does it make me more mobile than ~10 km in 2-3 seconds, using erratic and unpredictable movement, on a short cooldown and with very low power cost, with the additional utility of breaking a missile lock? No? Then why do I want it?

 

The reason to consider other options is control. Once you hit the barrel roll button, you're barreling forwards and nothing's going to stop that (except possibly your death). This can put you out of position (behind enemy lines, off the satellite, too close to a capital ship, too far from your allies, etc). In TDM, these drawbacks are entirely under your control. In domination... well, as it's your primary lock break, I've lost one too many satellites because of barrel roll to like it as much as my fellow players do.

 

A word on alternatives: koiogran turn, retro thrusters, snap turn, and power dive are all generally usable. I haven't bothered using any of them but retro thrusters, though, because of the simple fact that only barrel roll and retro thrusters offer me something I can't do on my own. If I want to do a u-turn to get that guy back in my sights, I'll hold the decelerate button and ram my mouse straight up or straight down. In fact, if I've specced for +20% turning rate, I'll probably do it more sharply than I would with koiogran turn. It all goes back to control -- and then I don't have to worry about being "that guy" who immediately turns tail when he gets a missile lock tone on the way to the satellite (which is always hilarious to watch). And, of course, retro thrusters give you more "face time" with your target, letting you finish a missile lock and possibly hitting with lasers.

 

Of course, all of the other engine abilities are more predictable and easier to counter than barrel roll. If you retro or snap turn, you can be followed fairly easily. If you barrel roll out, you've probably bought yourself at least a second or two of breathing room, and probably closer to five or ten if your pursuer doesn't have barrel roll himself. It's not the biggest deal in the world in my opinion (a skilled pilot can weave out of a retro to partially mitigate that disadvantage), but it's certainly worth considering.

 

Booster recharge is fairly straightforward: it's mobility at the cost of power. Mobility can become offense, and mobility can become defense, and mobility can maybe become accuracy if you leverage it to reduce tracking penalties, but mobility can't become an aoe accuracy and evasion debuff, it can't become +33% fire rate or +15% crit +25% surge, and it certainly can't become "these mines, they're boring, stop having a boring minefield, stop having a boring life".

 

If you're taking booster recharge, you're choosing to focus on mobility over offense, plain and simple. And that's fine: mobility is practically mandatory for a scout, and unbuffed lasers and missiles still destroy all but the toughest ships in mere seconds. Further, booster recharge is hands down the scout's best answer to being hit by an ion railgun. But taking booster recharge is still a significant choice with all the drawbacks that come of not having more of the most important feature of the game (damage), and when I find myself in TDM on a server without an "overcharged barrel" scout, I'm a bit of a sad panda.

 

Engine power converter (for the blackbolt/novadive only, also known as shield-to-engine converter) is an interesting and possibly underutilized component. A lot of pilots are turned off by the idea of making their shields even weaker than they already are (I can't tell you how many turbo reactor distortion field scouts I've two-shot). However, the strength of the engine power converter comes from the fact that it works with small numbers: an upgraded converter will take a fairly small amount of shield power and turn it into a fairly small amount of engine power, and will do so on a five second cooldown. Five seconds! How many pilots even know that number? It's pretty much perfect -- whenever you need engine power, you can push the button, and whenever you don't need engine power, you can just not push the button. Oh, yeah, it also gives you +25% shield capacity when it's fully upgraded, because it can.

 

Of course, the converter comes at its own opportunity cost. Like booster recharge, you're making a significant tradeoff: mobility for toughness. Mobility can turn into defense by making you harder to hit, and if you're willing to risk overextending your position you can simply out-range your opponent (their sensors, that is, not just their weapons; yes, it's that good). And while you can turn mobility into the regeneration you get from quick-lol shields (seriously, BW, that -30% shield power kills the thing), you can't really turn it into the massive amounts of evasion provided by distortion field that lets other scouts charge gunships with impunity, finish off a target with an angry opponent riding their thrusters, or tank a few hits while an ally finishes off the guy hitting you, and it certainly can't give an instant "eff you" to everyone trying to get a cluster lock on you.

 

"But wait," you may cry, "what about speed thrusters?"

 

Speed thrusters are a funny thing. They're fairly simple at first blush: they increase your cruising speed by 10%. As far as I can tell, this also increases your speed while accelerating, boosting, and decelerating, and it also increases the time it takes to go from moving to fullstop. Some of these are advantages, and some are disadvantages (for example, a scout that's accelerated to get up close and personal with a strike that's suddenly decelerating is more likely to overshoot with speed thrusters than without). Whether they're an overall positive depends on your piloting habits and the pilots you regularly fly against as much as any numbers or strategies I could try to throw out.

 

Further, the opportunity cost of speed thrusters is... very different. With barrel roll, you're giving up retro thrusters. Ok, big deal, you're generally going for a specific advantage. The same applies for choosing booster recharge or engine power converter. All three of these choices are essentially choosing a different playstyle. On the other hand, choosing speed thrusters over one of your other options is generally choosing to augment a particular playstyle.

 

In many cases, speed thrusters are a trap. Think of it this way: would you rather have +10% speed all the time, or +220% speed an extra 20% of the time? That's the choice between speed thrusters and regeneration thrusters -- and given that afterburner can be used when you need it and will save your life when you need it to, I think the choice is obvious. Further, regeneration thrusters can get you out of some sticky situations with ion and interdiction weapons where speed thrusters would provide practically no benefit. Power thrusters provide less benefit over the course of a match than regeneration thrusters do (and you probably shouldn't be deliberately letting engine power pool up anyway) while providing no benefit when you're snared or drained.

 

Therefore, regeneration thrusters are my default choice. Perhaps obviously, if you're going for satellite defense, turning thrusters are your best friend (and I combine them with increased turning rate from retro thrusters).

 

However, there's a specific situation where speed thrusters are worthwhile: if you're going for hit-and-fade tactics and have essentially unlimited engine power, there's practically no reason to take power or regen thrusters, and since these builds often use mid- to long-ranged weaponry (for a scout, anyway), turning thrusters are less valuable.

 

It all comes down to knowing your playstyle, knowing your opponents, and knowing your battlefield. Barrel roll and blaster overcharge are, in my experience, superior in deathmatches. Booster recharge and engine power converter provide enough mobility to boost from point A to point C practically on demand. In fact, if you're content with holding a single point (usually B in Kuat Mesas or C in Lost Shipyards), you may forgo mobility entirely and take blaster overcharge, retro thrusters, and distortion field! I'm a firm believer that there isn't a right or wrong choice of components, just right and wrong components for your role and playstyle.

 

Except thermite torpedo. Man, what's that even do again?

Edited February 14, 2014 by Armonddd