Since Nibbon has quit: Sage/Sorcerer Top issues discussion

[Capote]

I previously responded to the hybrid issue. I don't believe it is worth a question. First, as previously noted, Bioware has responded (though perhaps not directly with respect to this particular hybrid) to the issue regarding hybrids, healing hybrids and arenas. I don't believe we will get more. Second, I believe our job is to point out issues or concerns for the class. Areas where the class is underperforming, not performing as expected or as smoothly as expected or where there are just general concerns/problems with gameplay.

 

Many people do not have a problem with playing hybrid specs, I play a hybrid spec at times. They can be fun. There is nothing inherently wrong with hybrid specs. If a hybrid makes a full spec obsolete or a full spec underperforms, that is where we should be focused. Let Bioware fix the full specs and less people will want to use hybrids. Our only concern in raising these issues is to try to make sure that solutions don't create overpowered hybrids that eclipse full specs. If a Hybrid is truly overpowered, I'm fairly confident it will be nerfed. But that hybrid doesn't seem that overpowered, it trades some dps for some healing.

 

TBH it is gamebreaking on arenas. The difference btw a team without a healer and a team with a hybrid sage or even btw a team without a tank and a team with a hybrid jugg is gigantic.

 

I do agree with MusicRider that it is a really big problem we face on PvP atm, but as mentioned above I don't think it is sage-related only or that the solution will be here. We should change the queues/matchmaking, not the class, that's why I defended it shouldn't be asked here, but in the PvP section.

Edited April 22, 2014 by Capote

[judgeender]

I have gone into matches fully specced in Madness and spent almost the whole match healing simply because of group make-up on both sides: the healing I could do was worth a lot. In solo-queues, there are a LOT of group compositions that are "overpowered" if put against another group compositions that lack counters/responses. This isn't a hybrid issue, it's a match-making issue.

[AlrikFassbauer]

I agree, Matchmaking is bad in PvP. One day we were put against 3 Assassins, and in another match we were 3 Sages.

 

In the past Laforet made a really good post comparing seer spec to disco priests in wow

 

"Stayin' Alive" ???

Or even "Saturday Night Fever" ???

Edited April 22, 2014 by AlrikFassbauer

[Capote]

I have gone into matches fully specced in Madness and spent almost the whole match healing simply because of group make-up on both sides: the healing I could do was worth a lot. In solo-queues, there are a LOT of group compositions that are "overpowered" if put against another group compositions that lack counters/responses. This isn't a hybrid issue, it's a match-making issue.

 

Am not disagreeing with you at all! What I meant is that the hybrids potentiate this problem hugely. As an "off-healer" madness sorc you could be interrupted and (problably) had several problems with force management/long casts, while as a hybrid you have (almost) all the tools needed to give full heal numbers. The utility you give overcompensates by far the loss in DPS. But still, it is, yes, a problem in the queues, not in the class, and should NOT be questioned here.

Edited April 22, 2014 by Capote

[Darth_Dreselus]

I am also against the hybrid question. Not because I think it is a good idea but pretty much for the reasons Ycoga pointed out.

[AdrianDmitruk]

I am also against the hybrid question. Not because I think it is a good idea but pretty much for the reasons Ycoga pointed out.

 

This. I didn't object to they hybrid question then simply because at the time I would have simply been repeating another's objection without adding anything new, but since Nala seems to be gauging support/opposition I figure I should add my two credits.

[Master-Nala]

PHILOSOPHICAL QUESTION?

 

Does anyone think the variety of Sage Hybrids are an intended benefit of the class? Just today, I tried a build that dropped Sever Force and the stun protection in Balance for Rejuvenate and Preservation. I liked it more than I thought I would.

 

There are a variety of solid hybrids in this class and the devs haven't moved much since 1.2 in squashing them.

[MusicRider]

Judgeender, Capote and Midicholorian all made posts against it, although perhaps Capote was the only one passionately against it. Just above Ycoga has argued against it. I don't really see that there is anywhere near a consensus that we address this in our questions. I think the hoards of 'nerf Sorc' people will champion this cause well enough.

 

That's fine, since there seems to be a number of people that have come forward and are against it then it can be left out. I still think we are missing a good opportunity here and prevent threads like this. But anyway since everyone feels against no point discussing it further.

[Altheran]

PHILOSOPHICAL QUESTION?

 

Does anyone think the variety of Sage Hybrids are an intended benefit of the class?

 

Rather than intended, I think it's a side effect of the absence of stance which disables the possibility of any kind of hard spec-limitation of talents.

 

But maybe it has been foreseen when they decided to not give stances to Sages...

 

So, it's hard to tell.

[Darth_Dreselus]

PHILOSOPHICAL QUESTION?

 

Does anyone think the variety of Sage Hybrids are an intended benefit of the class? Just today, I tried a build that dropped Sever Force and the stun protection in Balance for Rejuvenate and Preservation. I liked it more than I thought I would.

 

There are a variety of solid hybrids in this class and the devs haven't moved much since 1.2 in squashing them.

 

There is also the psychological strengths of hybrids. In PvP, determining the opponent's build is crucial so you know what to expect and how to counter it. This can as basic as interrupting Tracer Missile to prevent Barrage, Rail Shot and the associated armour debuff. Obviously stances are a giveaway. Hybrids on the other hand can always surprise you.

 

Even with the stances there are still hybrids around so I do not see the absence of those to be a huge problem. There are so many Sage hybrids mainly because of the the fact that cap abilities are just not that impressive in PvP in comparison to other options.

Edited April 22, 2014 by Darth_Dreselus

[judgeender]

Hybrids are also the result of the way the skill trees are set up. There are some very nice abilities at the 11-20 skill point level in all 3 of the trees with a lot less really good skills at the higher/top of the trees. Giving up the higher end of a tree isn't seen as that detrimental in some cases. Edited April 22, 2014 by judgeender

[MidichIorian]

Judgeender, Capote and Midicholorian all made posts against it, although perhaps Capote was the only one passionately against it. Just above Ycoga has argued against it. I don't really see that there is anywhere near a consensus that we address this in our questions. I think the hoards of 'nerf Sorc' people will champion this cause well enough.

I'm not against making the hybrids less desireable but it shouldnt be done through a straight nerf. I want the hybrids to be gone but I think the way to go is to buff the full specs.

 

And the, IMO, only way of preventing hybrids would be to add point restrictions or simply restricting combinations based on what tier those abilties are unlocked in, which would apply to all classes. You can't nerf individual abilties because that would ultimately screw with the pure specs and leveling. So it's a question about game mechanics and not our class specifically.

Edited April 22, 2014 by MidichIorian

[MusicRider]

It seems that my post suggesting to ask about hybrids although it has been received with overwhelming rejection it has initiated an interesting discussion in the last few pages, good for nala since it seems that the question seem ready.

 

But please allow me to clarify a few things:

1) I am not against hybrids, in fact I am for hybrids as they offer greater variability to choose from for different circumstances and make a class more interesting.

2) In my post I was referring to one specific hybrid, that of heal/dps that queues as dps, as in my opinion it is game-breakng in solo queue ranked arenas. Let me make clear that I think the problem lies with the matchmaking system and not with the class. No need to discuss this matter further as it is clear the majority feels it should not be asked and that's cool.

 

I would like to close this post with a question to fellow sages and sorcs. If this specific heal/dps hybrid was queued as a healer (which means the opposite team would have a healer also) instead of dps as it currently is, would you still play it?

Edited April 22, 2014 by MusicRider

[Capote]

It seems that my post suggesting to ask about hybrids although it has been received with overwhelming rejection it has initiated an interesting discussion in the last few pages, good for nala since it seems that the question seem ready.

 

But please allow me to clarify a few things:

1) I am not against hybrids, in fact I am for hybrids as they offer greater variability to choose from for different circumstances and make a class more interesting.

2) In my post I was referring to one specific hybrid, that of heal/dps that queues as dps, as in my opinion it is game-breakng in solo queue ranked arenas. Let me make clear that I think the problem lies with the matchmaking system and not with the class. No need to discuss this matter further as it is clear the majority feels it should not be asked and that's cool.

 

I would like to close this post with a question to fellow sages and sorcs. If this specific heal/dps hybrid was queued as a healer (which means the opposite team would have a healer also) instead of dps as it currently is, would you still play it?

 

Well taking into consideration that nobody plays as sorc heals then the answer would be no, but not because the hybrid is worse, simply because the seer itself is not on pair with others, hybrid or not (that's why we need to "trick" the queue). But maybe, if seer were actually better, perhaps my answer would be "yes, in certain situations (for example if I knew that there'd be someone to peel for me)".

Edited April 23, 2014 by Capote

[AdrianDmitruk]

PHILOSOPHICAL QUESTION?

 

Does anyone think the variety of Sage Hybrids are an intended benefit of the class? Just today, I tried a build that dropped Sever Force and the stun protection in Balance for Rejuvenate and Preservation. I liked it more than I thought I would.

 

There are a variety of solid hybrids in this class and the devs haven't moved much since 1.2 in squashing them.

 

I've been arguing for a substantial length of time that the proliferation of sorc hybrids is a side effect of our top tier abilities being quite lackluster and the placement of our better abilities in the middle of our respective skill trees.

 

Contributing further to such hybrid proliferation is the (expanding) multitude of skill taxes we are expected to pay; for PVP we now literally have skill taxes in all three trees, and they arguably add up to more than 10 points even after you subtract your "intended" tree.

 

Bioware just gave DPS sorcs large buffs with 2.7, but it should be noted that the buffs were not towards/at the top of the trees. They were in the middle. Bioware may state over and over again that they don't like hybrids, do not intend for them to be more powerful than pure 36 point builds, etc., but they are either unable or unwilling to put the work into revamping the top tiers of our talent trees to make the full builds more desirable.

 

The only real counterexample I can think of is their "fix" for bubblestun in 2.0, where not only did they nerf the bubblestun, but they also placed electric bindings HIGH up in lightning tree in an effort to further discourage healer hybrids. (It worked, until arenas forced an environment where we again needed CC and/or to Make Them Pay, which full corruption utterly lacks.) But with DF/Wrath accessible at 16 points madness, even 30 points lightning for the Electric Bindings wasn't enough to break the DPS hybrids as well. That's probably why they wanted to make Fadeout a purely PVP skill tax for all sorcs instead of treating us equally compared to mercs and giving us our mobility cooldown immunity baseline like they did with Hydraulic Overrides.

 

So it seems that unless a hybrid becomes so gamebreaking that the community cries for nerfs for a year, they don't care. When they are forced to care, they'd rather thoughtlessly nerfbat than actually fix.

Edited April 23, 2014 by AdrianDmitruk

[Master-Nala]

Hybrids are also the result of the way the skill trees are set up. There are some very nice abilities at the 11-20 skill point level in all 3 of the trees with a lot less really good skills at the higher/top of the trees. Giving up the higher end of a tree isn't seen as that detrimental in some cases.

 

Agreed, but the thing I notice is that all of the known viable hybrids take Presence of Mind (Wrath). That particular mechanic and its associated talents (force regen on TK Throw, no cooldown on TK Throw) feel so core to making the class function properly, at least in PvP.

[MusicRider]

There is nothing wrong with top tier talents, in fact they are pretty good and this is shown by the fact that in pve full trees dominate the parses of any sage hybrid.

 

The existence and preference for hybrids in pvp is for other reasons. I had been playing even before 2.0 a deep TK hybrid even in ranked (25/16) when nobody actually did back then for the same reasons that this hybrid spec (30/16 now) is so popular today and in much better condition due to the high level new skills. It offers good mobility from balance and decent single-target burst and DCDs from TK.

[Capote]

I tend to agree. As sages we have a natural target on our heads, so mobility/instant spells are a must have. The wrath proc is simply indispensable, imo. By analogy, that's why the second question is so important, the entire "seer situation" revolves around its long interruptible casts.

[AlrikFassbauer]

PHILOSOPHICAL QUESTION?

 

Does anyone think the variety of Sage Hybrids are an intended benefit of the class?

 

You know, SWTOR is my second MMO. Apart from that I did play only offline RPGs and Adventure games.

 

To me, the idea of an "Hybrid" was an natural thing : Why not spend points wherever I like ?

 

"But no, no ,no, you mustn't do this !" was the reacion I received everywhere. Everyone frowned upon it, everyone made it more than clear that Hybroids were an unwanted thing. Unwritten rule.

 

I still don't quite understand what's so bad about Hybrids. Well, I might not be min-maxing effective to the very best point one could reach - but I could have fun instead !

 

Now, people would say that I would harm them, by not contributing the absolute best there was possible - so, as if min-maxing was the ONLY way to play MMOs (nowadays).

 

Blizzar5d was the first one to kind of "invent" builds.

In my opinion, they did more harm to the RPG genre as a whole than the RPG genre would benefit from that.

Why ? Because with "builds" came the peer poressure to actually min-max. RPGs weren't about FUN anymore,

instead they were about CALCULATIONS.

And that's one of the reasons why I personally believe that Blizzard did quite some harm to the RPG genre as a whole :

 

- Not only did they wipe out ANY OTHER kind of gameplay that the "Action-RPG" sub-genre they invented. Even SWTOR is an Action-RPG at its core. And MASSES of developers wanted to have a piece of that cake, too. So they copied Blizzard in one way or another. There grew and grew and grew and grew an gigantic bubble called "Acttion-RPGs".

 

- But they also made min-maxing the ONLY viable form of developing a characters' abvilities. Anything LESS than min-maxing simply was not taken.

You can see it in my favourite game called "Drakensang 2", for example : There are actually Social skills within that game. One more thing Blizzard had absolutely eradicated. Why take social skills for your character if they only add "fluff" and are NOT AT ALL contributing the the best possible kill rate within the game ? So, people just didn't take them. Because a) they were not used to use any social skills thanks to Blizzard, b) because RPGs of ANY kind are about NOTHING BUT killing as much critters as possible - yes, even within SWTOR ! - and c) because the whole today's gaming generation are min-maxers with RPGs.

 

And yes, people nowadays ask even for "best builds" for games when there are no "builds" available by definition !

I've seen people asking for the "best buiild for both Drakensang games ! (Which are as far about role-playing as it can get nowadays. Unfortunately people bought rather DAO, that's why the developing company is no more.)

 

There's nothing left besides this. Blizzard did a far too well job with eradicating anyhing else that was fun decades ago.

 

And so, that's why everybody is frowning on Hybrids. It's Blizzard's Heritage. Of Min-Maxing everything to get the best possible kill rate and the shortest TTK possible for each critter, too.

 

Social skills ? Why ?

Fluff ? Why ?

Slow gaming ? Why ?

Edited April 23, 2014 by AlrikFassbauer

[MidichIorian]

There is nothing wrong with top tier talents, in fact they are pretty good and this is shown by the fact that in pve full trees dominate the parses of any sage hybrid.

Two things about that.

 

1. I don't think that many have given the hybrids are fair shot on the dummies. Sure, if you get a perfect pure spec parse you'll probably parse higher but for the average parse there's probably not much of a difference and it's significally easier and more consistent on a hybrid.

 

2. I'm willing to bet that most (all?) decent sorcs/sage would have better output on a hybrid than on full specs, or atleast better than tele/lighting, on most bosses.

[Darth_Dreselus]

Two things about that.

 

1. I don't think that many have given the hybrids are fair shot on the dummies. Sure, if you get a perfect pure spec parse you'll probably parse higher but for the average parse there's probably not much of a difference and it's significally easier and more consistent on a hybrid.

 

2. I'm willing to bet that most (all?) decent sorcs/sage would have better output on a hybrid than on full specs, or atleast better than tele/lighting, on most bosses.

 

Turbulence is beastly. In fact it is also beastly in PvP but getting it off is more of a problem there.

[Capote]

There is nothing wrong with top tier talents, in fact they are pretty good and this is shown by the fact that in pve full trees dominate the parses of any sage hybrid.

 

Have to disagree in this point. What's good on a tree for PvE sometimes isn't for PvP (e.g the aoe root on TK has a very situational use on PvE, while the healing pool on seer is extremely situatinal on PvP), and vice versa. With that in mind, as the discussion on hybrids is focused on PvP, I have to say that PvE parses does not matter at all (we all know it is a completely different environment with different priorities), and so some talents on the top tiers of the tree are disposable in PvP if compared to the gigantic benefits you get from balance.

 

I understand that you said that the use of hybrids come from other reasons than the tree (mobility and such), but the point is that it's the tree itself that grants this advantages. So perhaps we should discuss if the hybrids are not a consequence of the bad shape of the seer tree overall. Take as example scoundrels and commandos, there are a lot less hybrids there. Maybe if seer was more viable the number of hybrids would drop a lot, and then simple changes on the queue system would be enough. What do you guys think?

[MusicRider]

Two things about that.

 

1. I don't think that many have given the hybrids are fair shot on the dummies. Sure, if you get a perfect pure spec parse you'll probably parse higher but for the average parse there's probably not much of a difference and it's significally easier and more consistent on a hybrid.

 

2. I'm willing to bet that most (all?) decent sorcs/sage would have better output on a hybrid than on full specs, or atleast better than tele/lighting, on most bosses.

 

I think that people that have spent a lot of time theory crafting and testing would have also test the hybrid 30/16 spec. Between 2-2.7 this hybrid is more prone to RNG due to psychic projection very rarely proccing and the total randomness of presence of mind, so actually full trees are better on average parses. However, these two skills have been reworked in 2.7 so maybe the deep TK hybrid is single-target parsing as high as full trees now. Remains to be tested. It certainly has the best aoe damage.

[MusicRider]

Have to disagree in this point. What's good on a tree for PvE sometimes isn't for PvP

Of course I didn't say anything else.... My pvp builds are different from pve both in dps or heals.

 

(e.g the aoe root on TK has a very situational use on PvE, while the healing pool on seer is extremely situatinal on PvP), and vice versa. With that in mind, as the discussion on hybrids is focused on PvP, I have to say that PvE parses does not matter at all (we all know it is a completely different environment with different priorities),

The pve parses is just to demonstrate the talents itself are fine.

 

and so some talents on the top tiers of the tree are disposable in PvP if compared to the gigantic benefits you get from balance.

 

I understand that you said that the use of hybrids come from other reasons than the tree (mobility and such), but the point is that it's the tree itself that grants this advantages. So perhaps we should discuss if the hybrids are not a consequence of the bad shape of the seer tree overall. Take as example scoundrels and commandos, there are a lot less hybrids there. Maybe if seer was more viable the number of hybrids would drop a lot, and then simple changes on the queue system would be enough. What do you guys think?

 

Generally speaking the TK/balance hybrid is due to the nature of the trees, one being mobile with little burst, the other turret with burst.... Put the two together and you get one very nice spec for pvp, particularly since there is a good synergy/linkage between the two trees with presence of mind, none plays 30/15. Of course there are other skills that are superb on the next tier(s) of both TK and balance (double ticking instant mind crush, death marks, etc.), but you only get 46 points to spend.

 

Regarding the healing/dps hybrid IMO it is a poor healing spec in comparison to the other healing specs (including full seer) and the only reason that it is popular is because it is queued as dps. Even if seer was perfectly viable people would still play the healing hybrid as long as it queued as dps simply because it offers a very big advantage to your team. In other words, the rise of the heal/dps spot hybrid is popular not because of the poor performance of the full seer tree but because of how the matchmaking system works.

[Aerilas]

 

Regarding the healing/dps hybrid IMO it is a poor healing spec in comparison to the other healing specs (including full seer) and the only reason that it is popular is because it is queued as dps. Even if seer was perfectly viable people would still play the healing hybrid as long as it queued as dps simply because it offers a very big advantage to your team. In other words, the rise of the heal/dps spot hybrid is popular not because of the poor performance of the full seer tree but because of how the matchmaking system works.

 

Hit the nail on the head. Well said.