The gap between subscribers & f2pers is insane.

[EspadaRojo]

Being on a team with 10 2-shippers, vs a team of all 4 or 5-ship players, who end up spawn camping the default spawn point, this is the sort of thing you see in chat:

 

"Ugh I am terrible."

"Never doing this again."

 

Thanks developers, for creating a system that's instantly demoralizing to new players. And thanks to some people who are helping to kill GSF by discouraging new players by subjecting them to spawn camping & hope-killing defeats.

 

http://imgur.com/TdQzyCo

Edited February 7, 2014 by EspadaRojo

[Lyet]

I don't think you're supposed to call out players by name on this forum, but I may be wrong...

 

Spawn camping is a pretty lame strategy. I'm trying to convince the midday Republic Harbinger pilots that letting them regroup and face us evenly in mid is a more enjoyable tactic. I haven't met much success :/

 

I thought the devs were going to implement matchmaking better than they did. Since it is what it is, maybe we players should coordinate "learn to GSF" sessions...

[Coldcrush]

Being on a team with 10 2-shippers, vs a team of all 4 or 5-ship players, who end up spawn camping the default spawn point, this is the sort of thing you see in chat:

 

"Ugh I am terrible."

"Never doing this again."

 

Thanks developers, for creating a system that's instantly demoralizing to new players. And thanks people like Myx'an & Valour from Harbinger, who are helping to kill GSF by discouraging new players by subjecting them to spawn camping & hope-killing defeats.

 

http://imgur.com/TdQzyCo

 

So let me get this straight. You are blaming the devs because there are those who expect to be immediately good at something against players with experience, and when they don't do well they ragequit? The problem lies with the player and their unwillingness to improve.

[Solloby]

It's really frustrating when you have a good match with 10 kills and 1 death, and all of your hard work is completely undone by one newbie or bad that's got 0 kills, 3k damage and 10 deaths (and they're probably embarrassed and/or frustrated by that too).

 

Unless you have enough other people on your team also pulling the weight of newbies and bads, you end up losing no matter how well you perform because of how many points they feed the other team with little or nothing to show for it, particularly in Deathmatches.

 

Which begs the question, why am I, in my almost fully mastered Strike Fighter, being put in the same match as newbies who don't know how to play yet? How is that fair to either of us, it feels like there's no matchmaking going on at all? Newbies will have far fewer learning opportunities because the experienced players will take them out too quickly, and experienced players have to put up with the frustration of their own team losing the match for them by dying much faster than the experienced player can wrack up kills/objective points.

 

Maybe Lyet has the right idea and we need to organise some training sessions on each server.

[Elly_Dawn]

yeah, Spawn Camping is a cheesy and lame tactic, unfortunately it goes as far back as CounterStrike, maybe farther, and it's impossible to talk people out of it cause it's the only way they stand a chance... those that don't post 3 or 4 snipers facing the gates are the ones with some true piloting skill, like another GS pilot claimed on these forums, with sniping the gates the game goes into easy mode for the team sniping cause their opposition can't get out of their Spawn Point... sadly people use it to up their Kill Count cause they think that's all that matters in a game... since the dishonorable will remain dishonorable the best thing to do is try to find a tactic against it and shut them down... fortunately for me i've only encountered this once... so far...

[Jandi]

As someone who started 2 days ago and got his *** handed to him, I have no sympathy. After just 2 days, I can hold my own because even though I'm at a disadvantage obviously, the gap narrows down real fast if you just stick with it and you learn how to counter which craft.

 

You obviously can't control how other people play, so you lose no matter what at times. Sometimes, you demolish the other team. Getting upset and crying about it however is kind of moot. If you separate players by amount spent or something like that, you'll have longer queues and that helps no one. I'd rather learn to fight good players than win.

Edited February 6, 2014 by Jandi

[Coldcrush]

It's really frustrating when you have a good match with 10 kills and 1 death, and all of your hard work is completely undone by one newbie or bad that's got 0 kills, 3k damage and 10 deaths (and they're probably embarrassed and/or frustrated by that too).

 

Unless you have enough other people on your team also pulling the weight of newbies and bads, you end up losing no matter how well you perform because of how many points they feed the other team with little or nothing to show for it, particularly in Deathmatches.

 

Which begs the question, why am I, in my almost fully mastered Strike Fighter, being put in the same match as newbies who don't know how to play yet? How is that fair to either of us, it feels like there's no matchmaking going on at all? Newbies will have far fewer learning opportunities because the experienced players will take them out too quickly, and experienced players have to put up with the frustration of their own team losing the match for them by dying much faster than the experienced player can wrack up kills/objective points.

 

Maybe Lyet has the right idea and we need to organise some training sessions on each server.

 

You are in the same match with these new players more than likely due to having to fill out a roster. Without crossrealm play, a matchmaking system no matter how astringent will always create the fullest match it can. If it didn't people would begin to see longer queue times.

 

So the question is, would you rather potentially play with newbs or not play at all?

[Solloby]

You are in the same match with these new players more than likely due to having to fill out a roster. Without crossrealm play, a matchmaking system no matter how astringent will always create the fullest match it can. If it didn't people would begin to see longer queue times.

 

So the question is, would you rather potentially play with newbs or not play at all?

 

I always play with newbies since I'm Australian so queueing in low population times, and while I haven't minded the 1-3 newbies you always get on a team of 8, it's not very fun when 6 of the 8 players on your team are newbies while the enemy team only has 2-3. The newbies always die a lot, which leaves you heavily outnumbered while they're respawning, and once that happens the only sound you tend to hear is the continual locking on of missiles.

 

After the match I think a lot of the newbies give up and don't requeue, because it can take a while before the queue pops again and you usually end up with a whole new group of newbies rather than the previous ones so you don't really get to watch them learn and become better. So while mixing experienced players and newbies is good for queue times in one sense, it's bad in another because it discourages those newbies from requeueing.

 

I wish there was a training level where you could just free fly for however long you liked. There could be some stationary and moving drones for practice, some scaffolding to weave in and out of, and the newbies could get used to the controls in a less frustrating environment before diving into pvp. It would also be a nice place for players to try out new ship configurations.

[BrianDavion]

thing is this gap isn;t a gear gap so much as a skill and experiance gap. and yeah this is the natural result of them giving subscribers a month and a half lead. however as Jandi said, this gap can start to narrow if you're willing to WORK at it. you can't go in and expect to be a tough guy out the gate. even subscribers started off being farmed by those who where in beta.

[CaliJoe]

I think I was part of this match. Or at least *a* match w/ the said players. The other team hugged the cap ship because they were getting taken out left and right. It was practically a blowout. It wasn't fun for me either. I empathize with the OP. None of my ships on any toons are "mastered". Some have more ships, some have just the basic ones you're given. It is quite frustrating to play a "team" setting but the "team" isn't paying any attention. I've seen one bomber blanket the B sat in a match. If I attempt to dogfight in a bomber I get screwed. The bombers don't fit with how people are playing. All they do is fly to the ceiling and blow each other up. Or hug Sat B and cross your fingers.

 

I like playing, but this is just awful right now. Reps points either need to be upp'd or something. There is no ranked GSF yet alla Ranks Warzones.

[okiobe]

You shouldn't call people out in the forums. I have only been able to play one deathmatch game and it was one like you described ( I was on the winning side not the losing side). In TDM spawn camping it just the natural result of a better team killing off the other team quickly. I believe it is the goal of most people to kill the enemy as quickly as possible especially in TDM.

 

So think of the beginning of the match. The initial battle takes place somewhere in the middle of the map. As the better team kills off the other team. They are already in the middle of the map when you respawn. This means as you fly towards each other the next battle takes place closer to your capital ship. This repeats until you are pushed back to your spawn point.

 

The best players are usually aggressive because they are always trying to perform better than they have previously done and better than everyone else (get more kills, damage, objectives, etc.). You can't tell competitive people to hold back (Just look at this year's superbowl).

 

I do think fixed spawn points contribute to this problem. I know Halo had semi-random spawn points in slayer which made it hard to spawn camp. That system wouldn't necessarily work because its more team dependent but making it hard to predict were your team will spawn next would help. Over the long term I think things will even out. It really doesn't take too long to get your ship at a competitive level (speaking as a subscriber). You don't need 5 maxed ships. You only need one ship with a few key upgrades, some experience and skill. We all started at the beginning.

Edited February 6, 2014 by okiobe
fixed grammar

[Solloby]

I just played a GSF and could tell before we launched that my team was going to win, because we only had 1 player with 2 ship options while the enemy team had quite a few.

 

It was a real slaughter, I felt sorry for the other team. We ended up camping their spawn point naturally, because it was a Deathmatch and the only place live enemy ships were was at their spawn point. There was no incentive to be anywhere but there, and the big ship didn't seem to hit us with its turrets; I guess we didn't wander close enough? At least I didn't.

 

I am wondering if people don't know that they can pick different respawn points, because they all seemed to spawn from the default one even though we were swarming there picking them off shortly after each spawn.

[Arutar]

I do believe that GSF could benefit greatly from a matchmaking system.

 

No wonder people get discouraged when they have to fly with unupgraded Scouts / Strike Fighters against a tem containing maxed out Bombers and the like.

 

But without X Server queues, I fear a matchmaking system won`t make sense.

[Armonddd]

So let me get this straight. You are blaming the devs because there are those who expect to be immediately good at something against players with experience, and when they don't do well they ragequit? The problem lies with the player and their unwillingness to improve.

 

Don't have time to read the whole thread, but I wanted to address this.

 

That's not what he's saying at all. What he's saying is, the devs created a gateway preventing access to the game, allowing some players to practice and gain significant experience (and requisition), and then removed the barrier without leveling the playing field.

 

Fair playing field vs new players getting rolled is an old, old argument with lots of points on both sides (why is it important to balance this now as opposed to no one caring six months down the line? is it worth the dev's time to handle this when a lot of players will "get good" before the solution launches? etc.), so I'm not throwing in my two creds. I just wanted to clear up what's being pointed out.

[Ansultares]

thing is this gap isn;t a gear gap so much as a skill and experiance gap. and yeah this is the natural result of them giving subscribers a month and a half lead. however as Jandi said, this gap can start to narrow if you're willing to WORK at it. you can't go in and expect to be a tough guy out the gate. even subscribers started off being farmed by those who where in beta.

It's pretty much entirely a gear gap. I don't know what you're talking about. Just looking at come of the components and their upgrades, it's practically impossible for a new player to kill a vet short of finding the one "vet" whose GSF days played is higher than their IQ.

 

Sure, there's a learning curve, but don't act like the gear gap isn't tremendous.

[AMightyKnight]

Yeah well, it was pretty obvious this whould happen. I even created a thread on the PTS Forum about it back before GSF went live. If they dont come up with something soon GSF will crash and burn. If the increased queue times after 2.6 on my server are any indication it is allready happening. 2.6 made the existing gaps even worse. No matter how much effort you put into it, there is just no way that you can learn and fight against players with up to 10 upgraded ships and hundreds of played games with Bombers thrown in the mix. And if some here think, the F2P crowd will invest in playing dozens of games to get somewhat competitive - well, stop kidding yourself.

 

Seriosus suggestion at this point: Have Kuayt and Czerka Flashpoints drop massive amount of Fleet Req so casuals can get geared ships without losing 100 games first. There has to be some way to catch up to us.

But of course, free Fleet Req means less spent Cartel Coins, so it will never happen.

Edited February 7, 2014 by AMightyKnight

[Zharik]

It's pretty much entirely a gear gap. I don't know what you're talking about. Just looking at come of the components and their upgrades, it's practically impossible for a new player to kill a vet short of finding the one "vet" whose GSF days played is higher than their IQ.

 

Sure, there's a learning curve, but don't act like the gear gap isn't tremendous.

 

Absolutely NOT a gear gap in comparison to the skill/experience gap.

 

Stop thinking that we were all this good (but on lesser ships) Dec 4th...

[dancezwithnubz]

It's pretty much entirely a gear gap.

<snip>

Sure, there's a learning curve, but don't act like the gear gap isn't tremendous.

 

most of the really crucial component upgrades come in the first few tiers, so the gear gap is nowhere near as big as might be suggested.

 

eg: Slug Railgun with the first three tiers is essentially 'endgame'. Rocket Pods with the first upgrade (ignore armor) are about as ****** as rocket pods get.

 

the skill imbalance is the real killer.

[HoloGrinder]

Being on a team with 10 2-shippers, vs a team of all 4 or 5-ship players, who end up spawn camping the default spawn point, this is the sort of thing you see in chat:

 

"Ugh I am terrible."

"Never doing this again."

 

Thanks developers, for creating a system that's instantly demoralizing to new players. And thanks to some people who are helping to kill GSF by discouraging new players by subjecting them to spawn camping & hope-killing defeats.

 

http://imgur.com/TdQzyCo

 

You have a really good point and there needs to be a way that new players can learn against people of there skill level.

[-Streven-]

As someone who started 2 days ago and got his *** handed to him, I have no sympathy. After just 2 days, I can hold my own because even though I'm at a disadvantage obviously, the gap narrows down real fast if you just stick with it and you learn how to counter which craft.

 

You obviously can't control how other people play, so you lose no matter what at times. Sometimes, you demolish the other team. Getting upset and crying about it however is kind of moot. If you separate players by amount spent or something like that, you'll have longer queues and that helps no one. I'd rather learn to fight good players than win.

 

This.

[Beslley]

thing is this gap isn;t a gear gap so much as a skill and experiance gap. and yeah this is the natural result of them giving subscribers a month and a half lead. however as Jandi said, this gap can start to narrow if you're willing to WORK at it. you can't go in and expect to be a tough guy out the gate. even subscribers started off being farmed by those who where in beta.

 

This.

Suck it up and get good, basically.

F2Ps are bound to get in a match with some subs to carry them at some point so they can learn.

Spawn camping is super lame though, for sure.

[-Streven-]

Absolutely NOT a gear gap in comparison to the skill/experience gap.

 

Stop thinking that we were all this good (but on lesser ships) Dec 4th...

 

A vet can take unupgraded ships and do fine. Skill gap is most significant factor and is typically overcome in the first week or so. Starting out is tough but not "insanely" impossible. With a littlr patience newbies will start contributing before they know it.

[Armonddd]

most of the really crucial component upgrades come in the first few tiers, so the gear gap is nowhere near as big as might be suggested.

 

eg: Slug Railgun with the first three tiers is essentially 'endgame'. Rocket Pods with the first upgrade (ignore armor) are about as ****** as rocket pods get.

 

the skill imbalance is the real killer.

 

I don't disagree that skill imbalance is significantly more important, but the biggest upgrade for most guns is +19% damage vs shields, which is gated something fierce.

[Suzina]

So let me get this straight. You are blaming the devs because there are those who expect to be immediately good at something against players with experience, and when they don't do well they ragequit?

 

I don't think he's saying that no. I think the original poster is saying sarcastically:

 

[

]Thanks developers, for creating a system that's instantly demoralizing to new players.

I don't think he commented on skill at all. No mention of "being good immediately". Experience was not mentioned. Chances are, he's referring to a different gap than a skill-gap.

 

The Upgrade-gap.

 

And thanks to some people who are helping to kill GSF by discouraging new players by subjecting them to spawn camping & hope-killing defeats.

So he's also balming spawn-campers, though to be fair, there's achivements for getting 9 kills in 12 v 12 matches that end after 50 kills, so math seems to indicate that's probably Bioware's fault too.

 

There are multiple threads up about this topic, though worded different ways. It MAY just be a flaw that is causing a significant amount of potential income to be lost to Bioware. They had similar problems with turrets in Beta starfighter. Once capp'd the turrets could 1-shot ships, so momentum never changed.

 

Changes that would decrease the number of 1-sided matches would not be difficult to implement and more-over, should have been in from Beta when we suggested them.

 

 

 

The problem lies with the player and their unwillingness to improve.

[Sirdannik]

Sure, there's a learning curve, but don't act like the gear gap isn't tremendous.

 

While the gear gap may look quite large when you first begin browsing the various components and what they do, this is a bit of an illusion. The minor components of each ship (sensors, magazine, capacitor, thrusters, etc) are very cheap to fully upgrade compared to the major components (1st tier: 1k, 2nd tier: 1.5k, mastered: 2.5k [1k + 1.5k + 2.5k = 5k total]).

 

Mastering these four components goes a long long way to closing that gap, much longer than it may seem initially.

 

also, getting the first couple of tiers of the major components closes the gap considerably as well.

 

I'm not saying there's no gear gap, because there is one. I'm saying it's not quite the monster it looks to be if you put some thought and planning into how you spend your req.