Bombers -- easy to play decently, but tricky to counter?

[Nemarus]

I think Bombers are in a much better place than they were in closed beta. However, I do have one concern ... I do think that, while there are plenty of counters to Bombers, they may end up still requiring a lot more coordination/skill to counter than they do to play effectively.

 

In other words, in a match consisting solely of new players, a Bomber is going to do disproportionately well and seem unbalanced. And if a veteran flies a Bomber against new players, it's even worse.

 

I think that's why we're seeing more casual GSF players getting frustrated by them. To someone flying a barely modified Blackbolt or Rycer, a wall of drones and mines clustered around a satellite might seem like an impenetrable wall--and even a base Bomber with no upgrades can field pretty significant defenses.

 

Sure, us veterans know that a fully upgraded Ion Railgun or an EMP Missile will destroy those drones and mines easily, but we're quite well versed in how every component on every ship works. New players are not. I know that the only time I have any problem holding a node with my Minelayer (even if I'm surrounded by foes) is if there is a skilled Gunship or two laying into me (EMP Missiles are more of a nuisance than a problem, since I can still drop mines from my Secondary Weapons slot).

 

I'm not saying I want play dumbed down ... but I don't want the game to be inaccessible either, for fear of no more queues. I'm not sure what the solution is. I'm certainly not calling for any nerfs at this point ... just speculating on why Bombers might be provoking a strong reaction in some GSF players.

[XavinNydek]

As far as "OMG X is OP!!11!" complaints go, I think the ones against the bombers are some of the weakest. Gunships are a hard counter to bombers. There's literally nothing a bomber can do to stop a GS from killing all their mines/drones from a safe distance and then picking them off. They can't even run if the GS wants to follow.

 

I'll agree they can be confusing to noobs, but so are burst lasers, evasion, rail shots, ion weapons, turrets, nodes, etc. There's a learning curve there, and I would rather the curve stay and the game have depth than the curve get removed and the game become boring and predictable.

[ptwonline]

My complaint is not that they are too strong, or too weak, or anything like that. My complaint is that GSF is quickly becoming a game of rock-scissors-paper. More and more you need the proper, hard counter to other things. It's not fun. It's frustrating.

 

If I'm flying a Scout and the enemy has bombers defending satellites, what am I supposed to do? Suicide so that I can come back with the proper ship type to take out the defenses? And then suicide again so that I can come back in the proper ship to help defend it? It's stupid. It's not fun.

 

Worse, it will simply increase the gap between organized teams and PUG teams, as if the gap wasn't wide enough already. That will just drive players away.

Edited February 5, 2014 by ptwonline

[mr_sim]

My complaint is not that they are too strong, or too weak, or anything like that. My complaint is that GSF is quickly becoming a game of rock-scissors-paper. More and more you need the proper, hard counter to other things. It's not fun. It's frustrating.

 

Rock paper scissors is the number one thing keeping the game from becoming a giant Scout fest.

 

if:

Scout > Strike Figher > Bomber > Scout

 

and

 

Close range > Gunship > Long range

 

Then we are in very good shape as far as ship choice balance goes.

 

The thing is in ground PvP your class ques are regularized because you can use you ground class for so many things amd therefore only the most hardcore will roll a "Best Class" for ground pvp. hence there is no rock paper scissors necessary for ground pvp. Though the 3 roles are a little bit Rock paper Scissors.

 

P.S. Yes I am aware that Ranked PvP does have a serious class bias problem, but ranked represents a fraction of total pvp.

[Armonddd]

I agree that gunships seem to have a lower "skill floor" than most ships. The first time anyone plays a scout or a strike, they're quite liable to blow up with no kills (because they're not sure how to avoid damage or properly lead targets or fire missiles or whatnot). Bombers, on the other hand, are very simple: fly to a place you should defend, mash buttons until it's defended. A bomber that does nothing but mash buttons on a satellite can get 10k+ damage fairly easily, whereas a new scout pilot might be lucky to do half that.

 

As for RPS balance, while I agree that the signs are there, we don't have a problem just yet. My scout can kill any class of ship with effort, and that's a good sign. It means that skill is still a dominant factor and there aren't any truly hard counters. (A hard counter, to me, is a counter that is always 100% effective and leaves the other player no options; for example, in Smash Bros. Brawl, Marth can kill Squirtle with a grab-release-down air combo at the start of the match, and there's no combination of buttons that can save Squirtle once Marth grabs him.) There are definitely ships that usually counter other ships, and I think this is something the devs need to keep an eye on to keep it from getting out of hand, but I've never looked at a ship and thought "I have zero chance of killing that guy this match" unless the pilot is more skilled than I and/or drains my power every time he sees me.

[ptwonline]

Rock paper scissors is the number one thing keeping the game from becoming a giant Scout fest.

.

 

That's mostly because of design issues that make Scouts superior in firepower, defense, and mobility.

 

Make things easier to hit and give Strike defenses some actual meaning instead of being bypassed, and thigs would be different.

[okiobe]

I'll preface my comment by saying that in most of the matches I played there were only 2 or so bombers on each team if that. I also don't think they were fully upgraded.

 

In my limited experience I think bombers change the game by requiring more teamwork to counter them. Before bombers I could barrel roll up to a satellite and kill off all 3 turrets myself and then work to dispatch the defenders in my flashfire. Now I have to pay attention to the location of mines and drones. When you attack as a team their damage can be distributed and easily dealt with. They are not hard to spot with the glowing red sphere around them and their red reticule. People are just going to have to learn to spot and take out drones/mines first over dogfighting.

 

Also in one deathmatch I was damaged to a red burning hull twice and each time a bomber healed me back up to green. I think this also adds a new element to the game. Know who our healers are and if you take too much damage get out and heal back up.

[DEATHICIDE]

In what realm are bombers doing better than other classes???

 

Every game I have played so far, everyone I know who uses a bomber gets pathetic scores compared to those they would have in similarly geared fighter ships.

 

Mines and drones are stupid easy to spot and destroy, and bombers are sitting ducks that cant fly themselves.

 

I can see multiple bombers cluster droning a sat an issue for a noob team, but even they are starting to come stacked with enough gunships in PUGS to counter that.

 

In my opinion bombers need a little buff(VS direct hull damage or to their engines, not the weapons) , not a nerf.

Edited February 5, 2014 by DEATHICIDE

[XavinNydek]

My complaint is not that they are too strong, or too weak, or anything like that. My complaint is that GSF is quickly becoming a game of rock-scissors-paper. More and more you need the proper, hard counter to other things. It's not fun. It's frustrating.

There has to be a RPS element in class based PvP, or you end up with one or two "good" classes/builds and everything else is suboptimal. That's kind of where we were in GSF before 2.6. An ion/slug gunship and a blaster overcharge/burst scout were obviously the best damage dealers, and a boost/rocket scout was the best node capper. Everything else was really suboptimal. That's all different now, and sometimes you just have to accept that your current ship can't do everything, and it's not a solo game, you need to cooperate.

[Zoom_VI]

I'm not liking the rock/paper/scissor part of it.

 

Like seriously I've already learned that if a bomber is guarding B in kuat its a lost cause already and you should just go elsewhere. (unless your a gunship)

 

Also they should put mines and drones back onto the HUD. Being shot at by a attacker that isn't on your map or circle is seriously problematic.

Edited February 5, 2014 by Zoom_VI

[Sangrar]

I don't know, I had a good experience with my minelayer yesterday when I finally tried out the bomber. The only thing is that I knew what to do so I survived, if not I would have blown up easily. I just used simple tactics to keep myself alive, for instance I set a mine at the node I am defending, go under the node and take cover from gunships behind it. If another ship tried chasing me I can trick them into running into range of my mines using what the limited engine capability I do have, and periodically healed my shields. Honestly, at least from my perspective as a minelayer, I can go either way honestly, on one end, I did survive alot and get a ton of assists each time and defending a node with a bomber was a very good choice, but at the same time my mines are avoidable to anyone who looks while they are going, can easily be destroyed by ship lasers with a greater range than 1500 meters (which means every ship I think) and I still cannot outrun anyone, and also it took using skill to survive the constant barrage of gunships and strike fighters who kept chasing me so I don't know honestly, it seemed good to me and I did die a few times, it was basically me setting my mines and trying to take cover. I have yet to try to dronecarrier though from what I am hearing those are the ones getting people riled up more than the simple minelayer.

[Danylia]

There has to be a RPS element in class based PvP, or you end up with one or two "good" classes/builds and everything else is suboptimal. That's kind of where we were in GSF before 2.6. An ion/slug gunship and a blaster overcharge/burst scout were obviously the best damage dealers, and a boost/rocket scout was the best node capper. Everything else was really suboptimal. That's all different now, and sometimes you just have to accept that your current ship can't do everything, and it's not a solo game, you need to cooperate.

I would say pre 2.6 the matches were like Flashpoints. Proper roles balance (and coordination) were advantageous, but when properly geared and experienced, you could succeed even with an "all DPS" team.

Now, with another ship type and another mode, the matches are more like Operations. Proper roles balance is way more significant - which may force some people to play ships which they don't like - and coordination also bears more weight than before (when sticking to simple "capture and hold" was usually sufficient). Due to non-existent matchmaking, every player gets the same responsibility - you won't get a match of the aces (a truly epic tactical battle) on one side, and some zerging just for fun of the casuals on the other. To me, it seems the GSF narrowed its scope - it went better for the true fans of it, but closed the door for the average masses. If it is good or bad, I cannot say.

[-Streven-]

I want to address the paper rock scissors issue and just say I'm astounded by the amount of people who don't think strikers can handle themselves in a dogfight even against a good scout. Strikes are extremely versatile and more than adequate at killing.

 

I also agree I've never felt like the ship class I choose has ever made me completely at a disadvantage to any other class. With the right setup you can find a counter to just about anything for any class. Sure scouts have some stronger tendancies when dogfighting but they have weaknesses which can be exploited also. I've never felt that i was gimping myself not having the FOTM. Which now still seems to be the BBB flashfire/sting.

[ptwonline]

There has to be a RPS element in class based PvP, or you end up with one or two "good" classes/builds and everything else is suboptimal. That's kind of where we were in GSF before 2.6. An ion/slug gunship and a blaster overcharge/burst scout were obviously the best damage dealers, and a boost/rocket scout was the best node capper. Everything else was really suboptimal. That's all different now, and sometimes you just have to accept that your current ship can't do everything, and it's not a solo game, you need to cooperate.

 

Here's the typical example of "cooperation" in GSF, and I'm sure we've all seen it over and over:

 

"Ok, Let's cap A + B to start, and then look at C."

 

Then the match starts and about 1/3 of the players go to A, B, and C. Why? Because not everyone agrees with the strat but because there's no true leader, no one has final say and so everyone does their own thing. If you can't even get that simplest level of coordination down, you can't honestly expect much more.

[dancezwithnubz]

my first 2.6 match, i loaded up my Blackbolt with EMP field, got thrown into team deathmatch and came up against a bomber for the first time.

 

popped EMP field, lobbed a few rocket pods at the bomber which then burst into a rather satisfactory ball of smoke and flame.

[okiobe]

my first 2.6 match, i loaded up my Blackbolt with EMP field, got thrown into team deathmatch and came up against a bomber for the first time.

 

popped EMP field, lobbed a few rocket pods at the bomber which then burst into a rather satisfactory ball of smoke and flame.

 

What you obviously aren't telling us is that his mine popped out of nowhere and killed you. Then drones one-shot you the rest of the match. /s

[reclipsed]

I played a few hours with both bombers yesterday and I enjoyed them. Very different play style. My assists were in the 20's, lmao. I was doing great until I finally played against the regulars that always wipe out the competition. Good players know exactly how to counter them.

 

I was just waiting for the "nerf bombers" threads to pop up and was not disappointed.

[Altheran]

I want to address the paper rock scissors issue and just say I'm astounded by the amount of people who don't think strikers can handle themselves in a dogfight even against a good scout. Strikes are extremely versatile and more than adequate at killing.

 

I also agree I've never felt like the ship class I choose has ever made me completely at a disadvantage to any other class. With the right setup you can find a counter to just about anything for any class. Sure scouts have some stronger tendancies when dogfighting but they have weaknesses which can be exploited also. I've never felt that i was gimping myself not having the FOTM. Which now still seems to be the BBB flashfire/sting.

 

My point about GSF from my Strike point of view :

Scout = Paper

Bomber = Scissors

Gunship = Rock

Strike = Shape-shifter