Shadow PVE DPS buff.

[WooduckAUS]

tldr; i think both balance and infiltration deserve to be used in both pve and pvp, as does every other class with a spec that is under performing in one aspect of the game or the other.

 

I thought i read someone a few posts back saying that there were certain fights where infiltration shined already, because of the down time due to boss mechanics. Due to the ramp up i'm talking of, balance would not be perfect for every fight either, target switching etc.....

 

I'm not saying don't play infiltration in pve, i was working under the assumption that certain fights already worked reasonably well for infiltration, not so well for others. Similar to where slingers have certain specs that shine with certain boss fights, so would shadows.

Edited February 6, 2014 by WooduckAUS

[thejollygreenone]

I thought i read someone a few posts back saying that there were certain fights where infiltration shined already, because of the down time due to boss mechanics. Due to the ramp up i'm talking of, balance would not be perfect for every fight either, target switching etc.....

 

I'm not saying don't play infiltration in pve, i was working under the assumption that certain fights already worked reasonably well for infiltration, not so well for others. Similar to where slingers have certain specs that shine with certain boss fights, so would shadows.

 

sorry i guess i misunderstood you, i've come across many people with outlook that i was just describing (as long as one spec shines in pvp they dont have to be good at pve) and it irks the hell out of me, so whenever the idea get's mentioned i can't help but going on a rant about why i disagree ;P

 

back on subject then:

 

yes a slinger will have certain specs that do better in certain fights, but they won't necessarily be penalized by pitiful dps if they dont. cough infiltration shadow in full 72s on nim dread guard cough. <---that was a nightmare. (heh, get it? nightmare?)

 

also, i think you're mixing up what people said. the downtime thing is specifically for force regen on infiltration, not overall performance or specific advantages. the only specific advantages that infiltration has in any fight is when very short term one/two time front loaded single target burst is needed (i.e. calphayus hm in future phase, raptus during challenges... uhhh... i cant think of any others...) or those where the execute phase needs a particular amount of burstiness, which i can't even think of an example for.

Edited February 6, 2014 by thejollygreenone

[Evolixe]

It just RNG. Given a large enough sample size your abilities should reflect your melee and force crit. Its really frustrating to use Force Potency and have the buff fall off without any charges being used simply because the game decided that even though your force abilities have ~85% chance to crit with the buff up, they rolled that 15% chance to not crit. Its rare, but it does happen enough to notice.

 

I really can't remember the last time any of my FP stacks were unused.. Unless I popped it at a bad moment and had massive downtime in between.

 

Then again, I run nearly 30% crit.

 

Also; not using shadow strike untill after project, when you need to watch your force consumption, is something I would place under the title of common sense ^^

[mmerry]

I really can't remember the last time any of my FP stacks were unused.. Unless I popped it at a bad moment and had massive downtime in between.

 

Then again, I run nearly 30% crit.

 

Also; not using shadow strike untill after project, when you need to watch your force consumption, is something I would place under the title of common sense ^^

 

 

You know what they say about common sense and like 95% of this games player base.

 

Oh and i guess the potency expiring w/o any charges being used i think happens more in balance than infil. I don't know if its happened to me during a boss fight, but I know its happened on the dummy more than once.

Edited February 6, 2014 by mmerry

[a-n-i-k-i]

Are they looking at giving us any sort of a PVE buff for infil at any given time?

Answer to the question : No, they won't, they're not looking at, they're not even imagining doing so.

 

... I love my shadow ... I hear shadows fall FAR behind ...

If I was listening to things about shadows, I would have been a tank since 2012. A good shadow is a deaf shadow.

And you can do everything you want with love, if you really love your shadow, except if you love more the illusion to be a better player (illusion to yourself or for your guild ?) because you're on the top 3 dps of 16 mans raids.

What are your objectives and your pleasures in the game ? Only you can know that, and therefore only you can decide. Eventually the only thing to be said (to help you) is that infiltration won't be a problem for HM ops with a good knowledge of the class and with a balanced group (you won't counterbalance 3 bad dps in your group for example).

 

One aspect you don't necessarily get with "flavor of the month" or "flavor of the century" classes depending of your game time/dedication to one class that you got with shadow is that you'll be forced in a good way to spend time to perfect your skill, in fact dps shadows are bundled with parse analysis. If you do that, you'll love even more your shadow.

 

To contribute to the following discussion (or not) :

I read some interesting ideas to "fix" the specs/templates, I remember some pre 2.0 ideas too and I have myself some ideas to "fix" the dps side of the class, but you see, everyone, there is absolutely nothing to fix.

"Working as intended", it's BioWare point of view, so it should be yours otherwise you'll just suffer (from getting ideas to fix it) until you stop playing the game.

 

Devs don't ignore shadow dps problem, they refute it, by words and by acts.

 

Since 2.0, PvE dps templates are broken, PvE specs are just bastards comparing to PvP templates.

They fine-tuned the PvP thing and patched together what were left for PvE.

Balance : No more backstab, enough said.

Infiltration : All those procs going anywhere with those cooldown resets (Force Cloak ->Force Potency = pure PvP brainstorming result) are broken, normal templates(inf & bal) give me the feeling to play a precarious hybrid template.

Procs/stacks are full of contradictions when put together, you have to do this or that but you can't do both because it's a situational mechanic intended for PvP cases.

 

Of course some of those situational abilities happily seem to be compatible with a lot of bosses in the HL game but it's just an illusion. In the purest form of damage dealing (the dummy), there is clearly a lot of dps potential which can't be exploited all the same time and it makes the gameplay unsmooth and illogical (comparing to what it should/can be, of course it's good enough to play).

 

They have an "excellent" reason to not do better for us, probably because it's not profitable enough when they look at how much players actually play a PvE dps shadow for more than 2 months. And this is a fact even if we don't have metrics, and it will hardly change.

They killed a part of the fun factor, if they dared doing this I think it's a good hint of what they're going to do or not.

 

But for me, all of this doesn't matter, it's good enough (until when ?), there is enough fun left and the dps is a false problem, most of the time. Since the beginning of parsing in this game the PvE shadow/assassin class is a small "family" (comparing to some other classes), it has its interest I think or like the reputation of being a bad choice for PvE, yeah it's not a lot but it's better to be happy with that because we can do nothing for a buff, if it comes one day it won't come because of the forums.

 

Just my opinion.

Edited February 6, 2014 by a-n-i-k-i
grammar

[keimox]

I really can't remember the last time any of my FP stacks were unused.. Unless I popped it at a bad moment and had massive downtime in between.

 

Then again, I run nearly 30% crit.

 

Also; not using shadow strike untill after project, when you need to watch your force consumption, is something I would place under the title of common sense ^^

 

That just means you are very lucky. I see recklessness stacks go unused all the time and I'm sitting near 30% crit change also. RNG is a b***h.

[DarthEshla]

Are they looking at giving us any sort of a PVE buff for infil at any given time? I love my shadow and I love my big numbers (11k shadowstrikes ftw) but my guild is starting to push HM ops and I hear shadows fall FAR behind. I'm used to being in the top 3 dps for 16 mans but don't really want to give up that spot. Any advice would be nice, I have a geared Guardian, Sentinel and Shadow to choose from.

 

We really need a much bigger buff then the one we got a few months ago. My guild is going into HM ops. to I was told Monday that my shadow is not within 5% dps of the other classes in my Op. team (Sentinals and Gunslingers make up the rest of the group). So they can not bring me along and I am being replaced. This sucks but I'll get by. I'm sure I'm not the only shadow out there being told I am not doing enough dps.

[Evolixe]

That just means you are very lucky. I see recklessness stacks go unused all the time and I'm sitting near 30% crit change also. RNG is a b***h.

 

I don't mean that I never don't crit something while reck is up.. But there is so much time to consume them with something else that I just don't see it happening that you drop 2 stacks with no crit.

[keimox]

I don't mean that I never don't crit something while reck is up.. But there is so much time to consume them with something else that I just don't see it happening that you drop 2 stacks with no crit.

Well it can happen and has happened too many times for me. I'm pretty sure RNG hates me.

[Aelanis]

We really need a much bigger buff then the one we got a few months ago. My guild is going into HM ops. to I was told Monday that my shadow is not within 5% dps of the other classes in my Op. team (Sentinals and Gunslingers make up the rest of the group). So they can not bring me along and I am being replaced. This sucks but I'll get by. I'm sure I'm not the only shadow out there being told I am not doing enough dps.

 

Your Ops team leader is pretty full of it if he thinks that you can't clear HM Ops if you're not within 5% of the top dps on your team. There are very few hard dps checks in these Ops, the 2nd phase future Calphayus adds and the Raptus DPS challenge being the only two I can think of at the moment, and the first certainly isn't that hard to make if you're paying attention. The Raptus dps check only makes the fight marginally harder if you fail it, too, so it's not like it's a huge deal.

[JMagee]

Your Ops team leader is pretty full of it if he thinks that you can't clear HM Ops if you're not within 5% of the top dps on your team. There are very few hard dps checks in these Ops, the 2nd phase future Calphayus adds and the Raptus DPS challenge being the only two I can think of at the moment, and the first certainly isn't that hard to make if you're paying attention. The Raptus dps check only makes the fight marginally harder if you fail it, too, so it's not like it's a huge deal.

 

I would also add Brontes/Styrak in Council as a "hard" DPS check in the current content. Just because things can go to hell pretty quickly if they aren't dead before everyone else comes back down. And if they're concerned that much about DPS %s, they probably would have issues with Bestia's monsters as well.

 

Regarding Infiltration DPS in PvE. It's kind of stuck. Super burst when it's necessary which makes it super useful in some fights, but begins to drop during long sustained uptime (I know I'm contributing nothing new to the discussion.) I really like shadow utility for DP/DF (Resilience, Force Speed/Phase Walk (Simplification), Taunt, Cloak (for Concussion Mine) although none of those are really deal-breakers, just conveniences.

 

Jolly and I went back and forth in one of these threads a couple months ago and sort of came up with a few "good ideas" that may not break Shadows in PvP and came up with maybe lowering the ICD of Profundity to 7.5sec or so and perhaps changing upheaval to not consume Force Potency or somehow making it work even more reliably than it does currently. Maybe even increasing the Force cost decrease from Psychokinesis from 2CS/6Project to 4/8 or something like that would help sustained as well.

[GrandLordMenace]

Whatever happens, you guys have been bottom of the barrel for WAY too long.

 

As a guardian, I'd like to say that all the tank classes gotta stick together, sooner or later all 3 tank classes will be fotm and give sents a run for their raid spots

 

1/3 tank classes competitive, 2/3 to go

 

/signed for giant shadow dps buff.

Edited February 6, 2014 by GrandLordMenace

[Sarafain]

A quick breakdown of DPS checks is bosses health divided by time you have to burn it down. That's what the raid's dps needs to be. Take 1.5k off that number as you have tanks and healers doing some dmg, divide the remaining number by 4. That's what each DPS needs to pull.

 

Yes, Assassin/Shadow are 10% behind other DPS classes, but what matters is that Assassin/Shadows can pull enough DPS to pass those checks, Deception/Infiltration as well. Guilds are clearing the content with those classes / spec!

 

If you can't pull the numbers it's not the class!

 

It's up to the player to clean up the rotation, learn how & when to use CD's. Once you know what you're doing parse, parse till your eyes and fingers bleed!

[Evolixe]

A quick breakdown of DPS checks is bosses health divided by time you have to burn it down. That's what the raid's dps needs to be. Take 1.5k off that number as you have tanks and healers doing some dmg, divide the remaining number by 4. That's what each DPS needs to pull.

 

Yes, Assassin/Shadow are 10% behind other DPS classes, but what matters is that Assassin/Shadows can pull enough DPS to pass those checks, Deception/Infiltration as well. Guilds are clearing the content with those classes / spec!

 

If you can't pull the numbers it's not the class!

 

It's up to the player to clean up the rotation, learn how & when to use CD's. Once you know what you're doing parse, parse till your eyes and fingers bleed!

 

Lol why would I bother parsing all day?

 

Im not interested in that.. I already know what im doing anyway.

[Aelanis]

A quick breakdown of DPS checks is bosses health divided by time you have to burn it down. That's what the raid's dps needs to be. Take 1.5k off that number as you have tanks and healers doing some dmg, divide the remaining number by 4. That's what each DPS needs to pull.

 

Yes, Assassin/Shadow are 10% behind other DPS classes, but what matters is that Assassin/Shadows can pull enough DPS to pass those checks, Deception/Infiltration as well. Guilds are clearing the content with those classes / spec!

 

If you can't pull the numbers it's not the class!

 

It's up to the player to clean up the rotation, learn how & when to use CD's. Once you know what you're doing parse, parse till your eyes and fingers bleed!

 

I think you're missing the point of "balance." The Shadow tanking community went through this many times since 2.0. Being able to clear the content may mean they are still viable, but it's not balanced, and a lack of balance can be very frustrating. You say that "If you can't pull the numbers it's not the class!" The problem with that is that the best Shadows in the game right now, who do considerably better than the rest of the Shadow/Assassin community, are the ones that are falling more than 5-10% behind the leaders in the other classes.

[invertioN]

Balance needs a buff for sure, and not "last 30%" kind of ****. Yes, it really is ****. The difference between the top parses compared to pre 2.0 is only slightly larger, but now we can use ARMOR DEBUFF on the dummy, so that small difference is even worse. Bioware pls

 

And in case I was too negative, let me add that at least AOE damage is great

[IInox]

well wait balance is on a good place...always better than inf

[Sarafain]

@ Evo - If you know what you're doing there's no need to parse. The parsing is to learn the rotation and have some measure of the improvement. I'm not saying to parse for the sake of it, that'd be just like staring in a mirror to see yourself.

 

@ Aelanis - I don't see the relavance of comparing top parses as most DPS checks are significantly lower then the dmg those people pull. I'd say about 2.5k is what you need to be able to pull for dps checks. Assassins are just as capable of pulling that DPS as any class. Anyone that can't, especially in 78's and regardless of class, is doing something significantly wrong.

 

The are a ton of threads out there with helpful info. Ilnox had a great page for beginners, we've discussed best openers, relics, stats, etc. The problem is that many players are to lazy to do learn what they should be doing and practice doing it. Again most of this is true of any Class / Spec. Nefra the test dummy, i was able to get over 3K without bloodthirst. Yes that's not "omg incredible" but i'm only an average player, again WELL above what's needed to down the boss. My gear is good but not fantastic, i have a 69 armoring still, most of my enhancements are 72 and so is my mainhand.

 

Sorry if that sounds harsh, that's not my intent. Yes I agree it's be nice to have our DPS potential be on par with other class. My point is it doesn't matter what the potential is as it's well above what's needed to pass DPS checks. Assassins/Shadows do not have to work harder to get to 2.5k then any other class, the DPS checks are just too low.

Edited February 8, 2014 by Sarafain

[IInox]

I'd still have the guide if mmo-mechanics went up lol

[invertioN]

well wait balance is on a good place...always better than inf

Well yeah, you can say it's in a good place as far as clearing ops goes, but it's worse than before. I don't see why we have to agree to BW making us worse when we weren't a top parsing class to begin with. I haven't played infiltration in a looong time so I'm not sure how can they make it better for pve without breaking pvp.

 

@Sarafain, I completely understand what you mean, but it's discouraging when you devote all of your time in the game to the class you like and parse say 3.3k dps, and then you spend 2 weeks on a sentinel and get him to parse the same with worse gear.

[Aelanis]

Yes, Sarafain, we can make all the dps checks in the game currently. Yes, we are viable. But that doesn't make it fair to those of us who pour hundreds of hours of time and effort into learning our class, only to never be able to reach the same potential as, say, Dotsmash Sentinels, who can basically faceroll and pour out a crapton of damage. Nothing against Dotsmash, but the spec points out the significant difference in top end potential of each class, especially considering the skill required for that spec versus Infiltration.

 

I would personally like to see a little buff to PVE dps specs without changing PVP balance, except to maybe make full Balance a little more viable in PVP. When players like Evo, Derty, Fuyri and M-Knightrider barely hit or break the 3600 dps mark, we see Mercenaries and Operatives breaking 4000. It's just frustrating when equal amounts of work, devotion and gearing up leave such a large gap in potential.

[Sarafain]

WoW I think is entering it's 10th year, there is still more then a 10% difference between the top DPS and the low man. I say that just to show how difficult it is to provide a perfect class balance.

 

You can compare the best of each class and compare the DPS potential of each, but it's just that. Yes our potential dps is about 10% lower then other clases, that doesn't say anything about the average player. I consider myself an average player. I find out about stat priority and gear accordingly, I know my rotation but will make mistakes. I won't be able to parse like those one the leaderboards I don't even want to. I parse with, not against, my raid group as that's what matters. After finishing Nefra and being above 3K I was pretty stoked, I didn't think well that means another calls would have done 3.3K.

 

Yes I would like to see the class put on par with others, I'm sure you've seen my posts in other threads. BW is doing OK with the balance of a game that's just over 2 years. I see it as someone has to be the bottom man and right now were it. Again I, as an average player really have no right to be frustrated if the DPS leaders of the class are 10% behind other classes if I have the same DPS in my raid group as that's where my effort matters.

[IInox]

Well yeah, you can say it's in a good place as far as clearing ops goes, but it's worse than before. I don't see why we have to agree to BW making us worse when we weren't a top parsing class to begin with. I haven't played infiltration in a looong time so I'm not sure how can they make it better for pve without breaking pvp.

 

@Sarafain, I completely understand what you mean, but it's discouraging when you devote all of your time in the game to the class you like and parse say 3.3k dps, and then you spend 2 weeks on a sentinel and get him to parse the same with worse gear.

 

me too, I play just infiltration from day1 and imho the only way that doesnt touch pvp..is sustain buffing force management. you can't buff dmg if not our burst will grow up...and it's the best burst actually.

[SalvorHardin]

From my calculations, a simple way to bring Infiltration on par with top DPS classes (not including smugglers/agents) would be to simply change Force Synergy to 12% crit chance bonus and 12 seconds duration AND lower force cost of Low Slash to 10. This way, we can actually use it in the rotation (without Shadow's Respite) during the 3 GCDs between 2 Projects, and it still takes skills to use well.

 

Those 2 changes would give a 5-10% sustained DPS boost without affecting burst potential (especially for PvP).

 

For Balance, I haven't done any simulation yet but if the change on Force Synergy is not enough, I can't see any "easy fix". The thing I would like to see for Balance is a PBAoE Force Breach so that Lambaste can be actually useful and an addition to Lambaste in order to reduce Whirling Blow's force cost. Also a new skill (instead of Mental Defense) that would give melee attacks on a target affected by Sever Force a X% chance to grant [skill], making the next Shadow Strike free and not respecting Global Cooldown with a Y seconds limit rate

[WooduckAUS]

From my calculations, a simple way to bring Infiltration on par with top DPS classes (not including smugglers/agents) would be to simply change Force Synergy to 12% crit chance bonus and 12 seconds duration AND lower force cost of Low Slash to 10. This way, we can actually use it in the rotation (without Shadow's Respite) during the 3 GCDs between 2 Projects, and it still takes skills to use well.

 

Those 2 changes would give a 5-10% sustained DPS boost without affecting burst potential (especially for PvP).

 

For Balance, I haven't done any simulation yet but if the change on Force Synergy is not enough, I can't see any "easy fix". The thing I would like to see for Balance is a PBAoE Force Breach so that Lambaste can be actually useful and an addition to Lambaste in order to reduce Whirling Blow's force cost. Also a new skill (instead of Mental Defense) that would give melee attacks on a target affected by Sever Force a X% chance to grant [skill], making the next Shadow Strike free and not respecting Global Cooldown with a Y seconds limit rate

 

(vote) +1

 

Any BW peeps reading this. Problem solved. Put him/her on your pay books.