Moment of silence

[Infernixx]

And yet:

 

In some few years of MMO'ing, I have never seen a nerf this ridiculously excessive, with a dev-team so blatantly ignoring community feedback leading up to it.

 

Not once.

 

It should just be removed from the game entirely at this point.

 

That's quite the exaggeration. Or you haven't played any other MMOs. Or even this one for very long, considering the level of nerfs that destroyed Operatives early on in the game's life.

 

And while I can appreciate the need for development teams to listen to their players, in this case, the 'feedback' was just denials and delusional talk from players who had gotten very used to their overpowered OS. They were right to ignore this 'feedback.'

[Andryah]

So, for a Marksman at least, there's an ability that is cheaper than Snipe, with the same cast time as Snipe, but does more damage than Snipe, and you don't use it much???

 

For single target, the 'Damage per Energy' ratio for Orbital Strike was never that good*: Every single target attack in a Marksman's rotation was better except for Snipe. This 're-balancing' actually improved the DpE, as the cost reduction % was greater than the damage reduction %.

 

The DpE rankings for my (non-raiding) Marksman:

1. 626 - Followthrough
   
2. 379 - Series of Shots
   
3. 349 - Takedown
   
4. 341 - Ambush
   
5. 337 - Orbital Strike (Revised)
   
6. 295 - Orbital Strike (Original)
   
7. 202 - Snipe (assumes cost reduction from Followthrough is active for each Snipe)
   

 

So, as you can see, Orbital Strike is now mathematically BETTER for prolonged single target fights (significantly better 'bang per buck' ) and WORSE for group fights (as it no longer kills ANYTHING of note).

 

Honestly, they should have just increased the energy cost to 45 and been done with it: That would have given us a hard-hitting nuke that is not efficient for Single Target use

 

*Disclaimer:

• This math excludes the use of the PvP set bonus. If this bonus is used, then the DpE suddenly jumps to 'better than anything but Followthrough'. Seriously, who the heck thought 'Give their Big Nuke a 33% Damage Boost' was a good idea???
  
• This math also assumes the Marksman is spec-ed into the 15% AoE damage skill from the engineering tree, but removing this buff does not seem to alter the results significantly (DpE numbers change, but rankings stay the same).
  

 

Whether they should have just increased the energy cost and been done with it is subject to endless debate and in any event pointless. They went another direction.

 

As for all your mathy-math.... by all means play the way you like, and I will do likewise. I've already adjusted my play to account for the change to one skill. Others, such as you seem to be entrenched on stipulating why Bioware did you wrong. You are free to do that if you like, but me.. I'm going to move on and play the game. Interestingly enough.. my Sniper still plays well, is very fun to play, and I'm not mourning the change.

 

I will however drop into this thread from time to time (as is my right) and remind players that what is done is done.. and the moment of silence was done close to a week ago now. Players can either get depressed about it, outright quit over it, delete their characters and reroll because of it, OR... adjust, adapt, and move on. I encourage the later option.

Edited February 9, 2014 by Andryah

[Andryah]

And yet:

 

In some few years of MMO'ing, I have never seen a nerf this ridiculously excessive, with a dev-team so blatantly ignoring community feedback leading up to it.

 

Not once.

 

It should just be removed from the game entirely at this point.

 

Setting aside the fact that this change really has a small effect on the class, IF you embrace it and adjust your play accordingly....

 

.... you clearly never experienced the Left-Axe nerf in DaOC. THAT was a true nerf of significant proportions that severely impacted multiple classes, and in only one faction out of three. And yet.. even that nerf... players adapted and moved on.

Edited February 9, 2014 by Andryah

[Grayseven]

And yet:

 

In some few years of MMO'ing, I have never seen a nerf this ridiculously excessive, with a dev-team so blatantly ignoring community feedback leading up to it.

 

Not once.

 

It should just be removed from the game entirely at this point.

 

Then you've never played any other MMO ever made, because they have all done it. In fact, compared to some of the nerf bat swings in WoW this is nothing. Whole classes get invalidated by the swing of a Blizzard nerf bat when they start "re-balancing" stuff. There isn't a thing excessive about this, it brought FFB/OS in line with the other AoE's in the game and still left it possible to add it into your single target rotation.

 

Your easy button is gone, roll with it and learn the new iteration of your class.

Edited February 9, 2014 by Grayseven

[horrorfaneightys]

Whether they should have just increased the energy cost and been done with it is subject to endless debate and in any event pointless. They went another direction.

 

As for all your mathy-math.... by all means play the way you like, and I will do likewise. I've already adjusted my play to account for the change to one skill. Others, such as you seem to be entrenched on stipulating why Bioware did you wrong. You are free to do that if you like, but me.. I'm going to move on and play the game. Interestingly enough.. my Sniper still plays well, is very fun to play, and I'm not mourning the change.

 

I will however drop into this thread from time to time (as is my right) and remind players that what is done is done.. and the moment of silence was done close to a week ago now. Players can either get depressed about it, outright quit over it, delete their characters and reroll because of it, OR... adjust, adapt, and move on. I encourage the latter option.

 

I get the impression that the maths is there to show that what Bioware seems to have achieved with the alteration is the exact opposite of what they intended. Which is what some of the posters in this thread were saying.

[eartharioch]

Maybe you could provide a link to where I said that.

 

It was in the reply to which I replied..."in this case, the 'feedback' was just denials and delusional talk from players who had gotten very used to their overpowered OS".

 

Not everybody complaining about the OS nerfs is doing so because they had a sniper/slinger. Not everybody complaining about the nerfs is acting like nothing needed to be done about OS for ST PVE Snipers. Yes, some people do sound like they are just saying, "Whaah! BW took my shiny!"

 

But your statement makes it seem like you think *everybody* complaining about the nerf did so because they were delusional or in denial.

[SlimsPicken]

And yet.. even that nerf... players adapted and moved on.

Most of them adapted and moved on to other games.

[Ominovin]

Then you've never played any other MMO ever made, because they have all done it. In fact, compared to some of the nerf bat swings in WoW this is nothing. Whole classes get invalidated by the swing of a Blizzard nerf bat when they start "re-balancing" stuff.

 

This is true enough: I was playing WoW for the Great Outland Bear Nerf. Of course, they actually hot-fixed that nerf within 24 hours of it being deployed, so there's always hope...

 

There isn't a thing excessive about this, it brought FFB/OS in line with the other AoE's in the game and still left it possible to add it into your single target rotation.

 

Your easy button is gone, roll with it and learn the new iteration of your class.

 

Our 'easy' button was our only AoE that actually worked worth a damn:

• Grenades are great for your first 15 levels or so, but after that they just don't do enough damage to be effective
  
• Supressive Fire is pretty much a joke in that it is a fairly long channeled attack that doesn't do anything to stop weak mobs from running out of the AoE. The fact that it only hits three targets is just the punchline...

 

Marksman AoE is hardly 'in line' with the other classes. Of the two other ranged DPS classes,

My Mercenary has no less than 4 AoE attacks that do more damage than OS

• Death From Above (yeah, the proverbial 'elephant in the room')
  
• Fusion Missile
  
• Flame Thrower
  
• Sweeping Blasters

My Sage's Forcequake does more damage over a shorter time than OS, and can be used repeatedly.

 

Now, considering my Marksman has neither heals nor non-droid CC, placing last in the 'ranged AoE damage' race is really sad.

 

Marksman AoE seems to have a distinct feel of "Well, if we pee on the enemy long enough, they'll eventually drown. Drink plenty of water between pulls." I just don't like that feeling...

[midianlord]

Then you've never played any other MMO ever made, because they have all done it. In fact, compared to some of the nerf bat swings in WoW this is nothing. Whole classes get invalidated by the swing of a Blizzard nerf bat when they start "re-balancing" stuff. There isn't a thing excessive about this, it brought FFB/OS in line with the other AoE's in the game and still left it possible to add it into your single target rotation.

 

Your easy button is gone, roll with it and learn the new iteration of your class.

 

Why do other MMOs start and end with WoW for so many of you?

 

There are and have been other games out there.

 

I've even played some of them, just never WoW. (Wouldn't even consider touching it if I didn't have a treasured RL friend playing it.)

 

E:

 

And no, XS/OS was never an "overpowered easy-button." Sounds like typical bad-QQ to me.

Edited February 9, 2014 by midianlord

[Infernixx]

It was in the reply to which I replied..."in this case, the 'feedback' was just denials and delusional talk from players who had gotten very used to their overpowered OS".

 

Not everybody complaining about the OS nerfs is doing so because they had a sniper/slinger. Not everybody complaining about the nerfs is acting like nothing needed to be done about OS for ST PVE Snipers. Yes, some people do sound like they are just saying, "Whaah! BW took my shiny!"

 

But your statement makes it seem like you think *everybody* complaining about the nerf did so because they were delusional or in denial.

 

You heard what you wanted to hear, apparently, when you read my post.

[midianlord]

Setting aside the fact that this change really has a small effect on the class, IF you embrace it and adjust your play accordingly....

 

.... you clearly never experienced the Left-Axe nerf in DaOC. THAT was a true nerf of significant proportions that severely impacted multiple classes, and in only one faction out of three. And yet.. even that nerf... players adapted and moved on.

 

No, although I heard about it (didn't play DAoC).

 

And sure enough, I've adjusted my play to reflect this nerf, too.

 

It simply wasn't needed, though.

 

So killing trash packs is now XS/OS ---> Suppression Fire/Sweeping Guns-During-OS/XS ---> maybe a 'Nade or two instead of just XS/OS.

 

People calling XS/OS "OP e-z mode!!111onoeoneone!" are just.....deluded. For me at least, it was for killing adds/trash mostly. And a great area-denier*/stupid-culler in PvP.

 

*Which Incenidary Grenade/Plasma Probe does 1000 times better, and always has anyway.

Edited February 10, 2014 by midianlord

[Andryah]

Most of them adapted and moved on to other games.

 

No.. most of them played on. But most of them did indeed dump Zerks though. It was not until WoW launched that DAoC saw any notable attrition... and even that took several years to really soak it.

Edited February 10, 2014 by Andryah

[mokkh]

No.. most of them played on. But most of them did indeed dump Zerks though. It was not until WoW launched that DAoC saw any notable attrition... and even that took several years to really soak it.

 

Besides the horrid community, I specifically left WoW because of the continued reworking of classes. Yeah they had skill trees and what not, but they effectively limited what you could get away with so much that it was like... this month I'm using hemo with axes, now I have to do daggers and mutilate, now it's swords with killing spree and so on. Why not just have auto builds load up so we play exactly as the devs want us to? It's so restricting, that it kinda suffocates the fun out of the game.

 

The standard MMO formula (balancing pve to pvp or vice-versa is about as achievable as the war on poverty) that has been deemed acceptable really does suck, a lot. The so-called "easy" button as you put it isn't gone... in fact I still have to spec at least 3 points into the skill just to get to the 36 point talent specific to the marksmanship tree.

 

I've been a mm sniper since the second to last beta, and I will continue to play him as a marksman until I quit the game (at least a long term hiatus if not permanent). That day is approaching unfortunately, and no it's not just because of this one nerf issue either. I rarely play my tanks anymore, now I'm going to frequent my sniper less, healing has been a royal pain. 3 months back after 10 months off and I'm burnt out again. Guess it's time to hang it up for awhile. I'm sure if and when I do come back you'll still be here, telling people what to do and how to play so... until then.